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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian II 1/2-1/2
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-04-20 08:15
Good luck!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6

r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-04-25 03:58
4.d3
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-04-27 20:53
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5

r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-04-28 03:06
5. 0-0
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-04-28 17:41
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6

r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-04-29 13:34
6. c3
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-04-30 04:43
So here's the other 6th move. Nothing surprising though now I'll avoid transposing to the first game. I think in principle castling before a5 would have been a better move order anyway.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O

r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-04-30 14:41

> Nothing surprising though now I'll avoid transposing to the first game.


No No U can play if u want. AFAIK U wont b able to play last game still.
If want to continue plz continue.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-04-30 22:21
The line I played in the other game wasn't the only one, I already saw how that went, so I'm interested in seeing another one. Specially if it was a fluke (if I trivially equalize without using more than 12 minutes with another line, that'd be something.) Still haven't switched on an engine and will not do it until the book is over, so that's your chance to find a hole in it and win.

> If want to continue plz continue.


I continued with 6...O-O, it's your turn.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-01 03:55
The position is nearly equal out from the opening.
There is nothing white or black can do unless one does a mistake.
The finite advantage is purely strategical.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-01 05:55
Okay, but I was under the impression that someone using maximum time on the clock, let's say, 6 days per move, could over-run someone that just copied moves like a parrot from a book. It seems that at least in the Italian black has equalized so much that this can be done without getting smashed, but I do hope you prove me wrong (since I was mentioning the Italian because I couldn't do it myself.)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-01 14:32

> could over-run someone that just copied moves like a parrot from a book.


You are forgetting the effort that goes into book making.
A book move is always statistically correct move if database contains good games even if blitz ones too.

> It seems that at least in the Italian black has equalized so much that this can be done without getting smashed,


Not only in Italian, I can play Najdorf out of the book  dead equal. So is catalan and grunfeld.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-02 01:20

> Not only in Italian, I can play Najdorf out of the book  dead equal. So is catalan and grunfeld.


Maybe we can try that later on, you copy moves from your book without further analysis and I try to find a hole in some variation.

Meanwhile, still waiting for white's reply.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-02 11:49

>Maybe we can try that later on, you copy moves from your book without further analysis and I try to find a hole in some variation.


okay done.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-02 18:35
7. Bg5

r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p1B1/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RN1Q1RK1 b - - 0 7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-03 02:24
Interestingly, 7...Bb6 is the only move with a negative (=in favor of black) "out of book" eval. 7...h6 is 0.00, the rest with an edge for white.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6

r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/1bnp1n2/4p1B1/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RN1Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-06 14:43

>Interestingly, 7...Bb6 is the only move with a negative (=in favor of black) "out of book" eval. 7...h6 is 0.00, the rest with an edge for white.


I didn't find that.

8. Nbd2

r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/1bnp1n2/4p1B1/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 8
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-08 06:07
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6

r1bq1rk1/ppp2pp1/1bnp1n1p/4p1B1/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-08 07:47
9. Bh4

r1bq1rk1/ppp2pp1/1bnp1n1p/4p3/2B1P2B/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 9
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-08 18:52
(rest with positive white advantage eval)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5

r1bq1rk1/ppp2p2/1bnp1n1p/4p1p1/2B1P2B/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-09 04:44
10. Bg3

r1bq1rk1/ppp2p2/1bnp1n1p/4p1p1/2B1P3/2PP1NB1/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 10
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-09 10:19
(only move)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7

r1bq1rk1/ppp2p1n/1bnp3p/4p1p1/2B1P3/2PP1NB1/PP1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-14 08:30
11. a4

r1bq1rk1/ppp2p1n/1bnp3p/4p1p1/P1B1P3/2PP1NB1/1P1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 11
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-15 03:10
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6

r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp3p/4p1p1/P1B1P3/2PP1NB1/1P1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-15 12:26
12. Bb3

r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp3p/4p1p1/P3P3/1BPP1NB1/1P1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 12
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-15 20:57
Book only covered Ba2 and h3, so that's the novelty! The game starts now, let's see how it goes...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6 12. Bb3 h5

r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp4/4p1pp/P3P3/1BPP1NB1/1P1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-19 12:16
13. h4
r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp4/4p1pp/P3P2P/1BPP1NB1/1P1N1PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 13
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-20 06:37
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6 12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4

r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp4/4p2p/P3P1pP/1BPP1NB1/1P1N1PP1/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-20 07:16
14. Ne1
r1bq1rk1/1pp2p1n/pbnp4/4p2p/P3P1pP/1BPP2B1/1P1N1PP1/R2QNRK1 b - - 0 14
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-22 02:52
Nakamura references this Bb6 -> Ba7 maneuver in one of his recent videos. I'll not comment but I found interesting GMs are aware of these lines.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6 12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4 14. Ne1 Ba7

r1bq1rk1/bpp2p1n/p1np4/4p2p/P3P1pP/1BPP2B1/1P1N1PP1/R2QNRK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-22 03:02

>Nakamura references this Bb6 -> Ba7


Its obvious because of my next move.

15. Nc4

r1bq1rk1/bpp2p1n/p1np4/4p2p/P1N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1P3PP1/R2QNRK1 b - - 0 15
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-24 02:57
At 0.00 around here.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6
12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4 14. Ne1 Ba7 15. Nc4 Be6

r2q1rk1/bpp2p1n/p1npb3/4p2p/P1N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1P3PP1/R2QNRK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-05-28 03:03
Am around 0.20 since opening...

16. Nc2
r2q1rk1/bpp2p1n/p1npb3/4p2p/P1N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1PN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 16
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-05-31 08:39

> Am around 0.20 since opening...


That's an extraordinary claim! My eval from the opening position is 0.03, I still haven't found a line for a 0.04 advantage, so it'd be cool if Bc4 actually overtook my evals with an advantage like that.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6 12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4 14. Ne1 Ba7 15. Nc4 Be6 16. Nc2 Qf6

r4rk1/bpp2p1n/p1npbq2/4p2p/P1N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1PN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-06-01 17:56
17. a5

r4rk1/bpp2p1n/p1npbq2/P3p2p/2N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1PN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 17
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-06-10 21:33
Heh, this last week I found an attack on the queen's gambit that made my eval of the opening position 0.07, as all defenses were refuted above that score. I guess any claim I make can be short-lived.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6 12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4 14. Ne1 Ba7 15. Nc4 Be6 16. Nc2 Qf6 17. a5 Ne7

r4rk1/bpp1np1n/p2pbq2/P3p2p/2N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1PN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-06-22 06:32
After 11 days analysis all I found is 0.00 :grin:

18. Qe1

r4rk1/bpp1np1n/p2pbq2/P3p2p/2N1P1pP/1BPP2B1/1PN2PP1/R3QRK1 b - - 0 18
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-06-23 15:11

> After 11 days analysis all I found is 0.00 :grin:


What I said back in May 23 :lol:

I'm gonna go ahead and offer draw. While I claim black has the edge here, because white has more ways to go wrong than black, it's unrealistic to expect that you'd slip, so this could be it.

18...Qg7 {Draw offer.}
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-07-04 19:36

>I'm gonna go ahead and offer draw


There is nothing both sides can do.

>While I claim black has the edge here, because white has more ways to go wrong than black,


Wrong. Both side can go wrong. had It been Otb its hard for black to defend rather than for white.

I can continue if u want.

Still draw Accepted.

i have much games going on at ICCF after getting the IM norm.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-07-06 04:29

> I can continue if u want.


Yeah, but in a new game. Would you be interested in trying a different line of this busted Italian? (since your score was 0.20 you probably had other 0.19 positions you can try) or would you want to try something else?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-07-06 04:37

>Would you be interested in trying a different line of this busted Italian? (since your score was 0.20 you probably had other 0.19 positions you can try)


yes.

>would you want to try something else?


Any other opening ?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-07-06 05:43

> yes.


Okay, here's our game:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=33587

> Any other opening ?


It seems our biggest disagreement for analysis is this one:

r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -


I have 4.Ng5! with a clear advantage for white, while when we played it your variation with best eval was 4.d3 (transposing to variations where Bc5 is played before Nf6). I'd like to convince you that Ng5 is best so we can try it later on.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-07-07 17:42

>I have 4.Ng5! with a clear advantage for white,


I have gone through it deeply. Its same as d3. there no such advantage afaik cc games are concerned.
I will play black here.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-07-07 21:48
Okay. Meanwhile, waiting for your move in our current game:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=33587
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-07-09 18:11
Oh I didn't See. I will move soon.
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian II 1/2-1/2

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