
Okay, how do you propose you extract good positions from the complete set? Where are you going to store the results even if you could? You are way too optimistic


Yes the theory on those lines is less, because it eventually leads to a position where Rybka is giving something like -0.50...
Yes, this -0.50 might be not sufficent to win for Black, but it is obvious that white did not play his best. The best lines of white & black will be exhausted faster than these type of sidelines. But then the sidelines will start getting exhausted also.
I was part of a team that wrote a loser chess engine, so I know about the staff you talk about. But with Aquarium, you can cover much wider than you think. I feel Aquarium concept is not fully understood by the chess community yet. It is not a chess engine, it is a tool that covers the imperfections of a chess engine.
You are also overestimating the capabilities of human brain in chess. For most of the positions that happen in a chess match, computers are more trustworthy than SGMs. SGMs have a better understanding of the drawing tendency of a position, which the engines lack. and SGMs also have superb endgame strategy which engines again would be lacking. In those positions, yes, I trust the SGMs more. I also trust SGMs more in opening preparation, but few would be willing to share their hard work for free.
Anyway, I am tired from posting on this thread. I'll be silent now so I can focus on life.
Regards to all,

I don't know I am thinking to teach my children programming instead of chess to be honest :-) Regards,
If I would have done as much for chemistry as I did for chess, ... :)
I always say that you can see in chess if a child is really clever - the intelligent one learns quickly, becomes a strong player. The super intelligent children realise it's a waste of time ;)
I started teaching some simple chemistry, physics or math stuff at my chess club. Sometimes I don't want to play chess anyway :)
"chess almost solved"?
chess is about as close to being solved, and openings being perfect as I am a millionaire.
Also, I think endgame knowledge is getting more and more important these days, because almost everybody has pretty good openings thanks to these powerful opening books, and you cannot win as quickly as in the old times. So in human play, I think the superior technique in endgame will the main factor to decide the outcome.
> The Rybka 4 book (and R3) is a one off deal with no updates. The Hiarcs book gets updated 3-4 times a year. The Junior book got updated with no extra cost.
You cannot compare the HIARCS book with the Rybka 4 book. The Rybka book has ~18.000.000 positions, whereas the HIARCS book has ~3.000.000 positions. The HIARCS book is optimized for engine tournaments, whereas the Rybka book is an interpretation of the actual opening theory by Jiri Dufek. If you want to play engine games, killerbooks like the HIARCS book is your choice. If you want to study and learn opening theory, the Rybka 4 book is the way to go.
> Rybka has no way to use it's book internally in GUIs other than Aquarium or Chessbase.. Harcs and Junior (junior to a lesser extent) do have a way to use their book internally.
The bad thing about internal engine books is that you cannot access it from the GUI. And every GUI has it's own proprietary format which is a pain in the ass.
> All of that adds up to fairly bad customer service.
It's up to the programmer and the distributors, if and when updates will be available. It's up to the customer to choose the engine which fits best for him and customer service is one point to be considered.
>> The Rybka 4 book (and R3) is a one off deal with no updates. The Hiarcs book gets updated 3-4 times a year. The Junior book got updated with no extra cost.
> You cannot compare the HIARCS book with the Rybka 4 book. The Rybka book has ~18.000.000 positions, whereas the HIARCS book has ~3.000.000 positions. The HIARCS book is optimized for engine tournaments, whereas the Rybka book is an interpretation of the actual opening theory by Jiri Dufek. If you want to play engine games, killerbooks like the HIARCS book is your choice. If you want to study and learn openeing theory, the Rybka book is the way to go.
I disagree. The Hiarcs book has proven to be great for my study. As has the Shredder book. (the Junior book a little less so) Is Jiri's book really all that much better?
>> Rybka has no way to use it's book internally in GUIs other than Aquarium or Chessbase.. Harcs and Junior (junior to a lesser extent) do have a way to use their book internally.
> The bad thing about internal engine books is that you cannot access it from the GUI. And every GUI has it's own proprietary format which is a pain in the ass.
I agree with this! Which is why I love Hiarcs solution! Make it available as a ctg book for viewing in certain GUIs and to be used internally in other GUIs that don't read ctg. See? Good customer service! They solved a problem.
> It's up to the programmer and the distributors, if and when updates will be available. It's up to the customer to choose the engine which fits best for him and customer service is one point to be considered.
You are basically correct. Which is why it is harder and harder to want to buy Rybka products. A customer does buy a product expecting it to work as advertised. When it doesn't he or she usually gets their money back or the provider/manufacturer fixes the product. Programmers are not somehow above that standard.
> Is Jiri's book really all that much better?
It's much wider (don't know if it's deeper) and you can use it for non engine games. For the HIARCS book, they add games played on playchess which is a very bad thing I think. Engines have no understanding of opening theory and adding such games is a very incompetent step when compiling an opening book. It will be good when playing engine games, but it will fail badly against human players.
> As I said, it's good for engine games but it's a bad idea for games against human players. I don't know if there are any playchess games in the Rybka 4 book, but Jiri said that he thoroughly chose games he thought good enough to add.
And I would assume the makers of the Hiarcs book also pick games they think are good enough to add.
I like consulting the Hiarcs book and then checking Shredder's book (and the huge book via the web at Shredderchess) and even Junior's book which is compiled by a GM.
I like comparing and then figuring out what I like. I would love to add Jiri's book to the mix but I can't justify the cost since it does not get updated and can only be used in chessbase or ctg. I didn't buy the Rybka 3 book for the same reason. It is not cost effective.
> It's much wider (don't know if it's deeper) and you can use it for non engine games. For the HIARCS book, they add games played on playchess which is a very bad thing I think. Engines have no understanding of opening theory and adding such games is a very incompetent step when compiling an opening book. It will be good when playing engine games, but it will fail badly against human players.
I don't know how much of the book is made up of playchess games, but I do know the theory holds up when stacked against other sources. I also know it has been great for my study (as I use it as a very nice guide to my own discovery) Along with Shredder's book and Junior's book.
And the customer service rocks!
> Instead what I see is that the Rybka team is moving on to different type of customers.
Let me just assure you that public Rybka versions are still extremely important. We have lots of plans for those. There will be some cool new features in Rybka 5.

Vas
Best regards,
Ricky
Rybka 5 will be the real meat and potatoes of all your work. Plus remote rybka will make beta testing a breeze and also safeguard your .exe
Jiri's book is a one time fee of $25,-. Hiarcs is a subscription model for $47,95 per year, including updates ofcourse.
Imo Jiri's book is a steal at that price. you can't expect updates for that.
> Jiri's book and the Hiarcs book are two completely different pricing models.
>
> Jiri's book is a one time fee of $25,-. Hiarcs is a subscription model for $47,95 per year, including updates ofcourse.
>
> Imo Jiri's book is a steal at that price. you can't expect updates for that.
Jiri's book is $33 or more for the Chessbase version. I feel like the Hiarcs book is a steal since I also get to use it internally with other GUI's of my choosing. It is just different levels of customer service.
> Is there any option of buying the uci engine for a price?
We don't currently have any plans to do this, sorry Suj!
Vas
Vas
If it doesn't, then there may be limited use for such a card. If it does (maybe by running multiple instances of Rybka on the card or by just allowing the card short thinking time in IDeA if it isn't affected by determinancy - I don't know how determanancy and FPGA cards work) then that would be amazing - a kindof chess solution.
Someone who knows about these cards should be able to say. I'd love to know what sort of speed up they give over an Intel 6 core machine as well.

If one went to the deep thought level using FPGA, it would still be deterministic if it did not do a parallel search. And parallel search on a single FPGA is not something anyone would want to think of, since an FPGA is basically a finite-state machine... But since you can do all of the search and stuff in the hardware there is a speed gain. There is also a significant speed loss since one can't do SEE, nor things like "killer moves" and "hash move" or even a hash table for that matter.
I think that this is a solution without a viable problem today. The only way to make an FPGA useful is to use a bunch of them so that their raw speed dominates the significant efficiency losses they have to deal with...
Hsu's dissertation gives lots of insight into the problem(s).
The real gains come from multiple FPGA cards, ala Hsu and hydra, where you take those very inefficient searches done in the FPGA, and run 'em in parallel from a more usual software search, except the software search stops at some remaining depth (8, 10, would vary by program) and hands that position off to one of the many FPGA cards and says "give me a score for this branch". There is a lot lost in terms of efficiency. But not as much as a pure FPGA solution because the software part of the search can still do all the move ordering tricks. And we all know that move ordering near the root is _much_ more important than move ordering out near the tips where the FPGAs would be searching.
It is pretty easy to be impressed until you get over the "what kind of speed can I see" and get to the "what do I have to give up to get that kind of speed?" And when you start listing killer moves, SEE, hash tables you begin to get a sinking feeling. Somewhat akin to a new Indy car showing up that has a motor that turns 30K rpm. But so little torque that you have to gear it to the point it has a 150mph top speed. Then that 30K doesn't look so hot. Sounds impressive when it goes by, like a Honda S2000 winding out, but it doesn't go anywhere.
That's my take. If I had one per CPU, I would certainly take the make/unmake/evaluate/generate/etc operations and move 'em out to the FPGA as I would gain a ton in terms of speed, without giving up hashing and the good things that make us efficient today. That's no good for multiple CPUs if you only have one FPGA, as you would need one FPGA per cpu so that each could have its own board.
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