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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Dubious opening move
- - By Josef (**) Date 2008-08-11 20:42
Hi,

in this position

r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 4


Rybka plays 4...Bd6?! (also the human version). Is this playable? Score against Toga goes downside quite fast:

[Event "FALCON, Blitz:4'+2""]
[Site "FALCON"]
[Date "2008.08.10"]
[Round "99"]
[White "Toga II 1.2.1a"]
[Black "Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C65"]
[Annotator "0.33;0.06"]
[PlyCount "101"]

{W=14.3 ply; 597kN/s  B=12.4 ply; 21kN/s} 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 {
Beide letzter Buchzug} Nf6 {[%eval 6,10] [%emt 0:00:07]} 4. O-O {
[%eval 33,12] [%emt 0:00:08]} Bd6 {(Lc5) [%eval 10,11] [%emt 0:00:07]} 5. d4 {
(d3) [%eval 46,12] [%emt 0:00:12]} Qe7 {[%eval 14,12] [%emt 0:00:14]} 6. Re1 {
(d5) [%eval 50,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} O-O {[%eval 12,10] [%emt 0:00:06]} 7. c3 {
[%eval 66,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} a6 {[%eval 20,10] [%emt 0:00:04]} 8. Bd3 {
[%eval 71,13] [%emt 0:00:05]} b5 {[%eval 32,11] [%emt 0:00:07]} 9. d5 {
[%eval 81,14] [%emt 0:00:05]} Na7 {[%eval 54,12] [%emt 0:00:13]} 10. a4 {
(Sh4) [%eval 94,14] [%emt 0:00:00]} c6 {(Lb7) [%eval 39,10] [%emt 0:00:14]} 11.
Nh4 {(axb5) [%eval 126,11] [%emt 0:00:08]} g6 {
(Dd8) [%eval 75,11] [%emt 0:00:27]} 12. axb5 {[%eval 146,10] [%emt 0:00:21]}
Nxb5 {[%eval 71,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 13. Bg5 {
(Lh6) [%eval 114,12] [%emt 0:00:39]} Kg7 {(Lb7) [%eval 72,11] [%emt 0:00:25]}
14. Qc1 {[%eval 154,11] [%emt 0:00:10]} Kg8 {(Lb7) [%eval 99,11] [%emt 0:00:13]
} 15. Nd2 {(Lxb5) [%eval 138,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} Bc7 {
(Lb7) [%eval 76,9] [%emt 0:00:06]} 16. Qd1 {[%eval 141,11] [%emt 0:00:06]} Bd8
{[%eval 76,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 17. Qf3 {[%eval 134,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} Nd6 {
(Lb7) [%eval 74,10] [%emt 0:00:04]} 18. b4 {(Dg3) [%eval 127,10] [%emt 0:00:10]
} Re8 {(Sb5) [%eval 60,9] [%emt 0:00:06]} 19. Nc4 {
[%eval 147,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} Nxc4 {[%eval 74,11] [%emt 0:00:04]} 20. Bxc4 {
[%eval 148,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} c5 {(cxd5) [%eval 78,11] [%emt 0:00:09]} 21.
bxc5 {(b5) [%eval 176,11] [%emt 0:00:07]} Qxc5 {[%eval 169,10] [%emt 0:00:08]}
22. Bxf6 {[%eval 190,13] [%emt 0:00:00]} Bxf6 {[%eval 199,13] [%emt 0:00:18]}
23. Qxf6 {[%eval 193,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} Qxc4 {[%eval 194,14] [%emt 0:00:18]}
24. Re3 {[%eval 189,16] [%emt 0:00:00]} d6 {[%eval 194,15] [%emt 0:00:21]} 25.
Qxd6 {[%eval 193,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} Ra7 {[%eval 194,14] [%emt 0:00:15]} 26.
Nf3 {[%eval 199,16] [%emt 0:00:00]} Qc7 {[%eval 214,14] [%emt 0:00:11]} 27.
Qxc7 {[%eval 204,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} Rxc7 {[%eval 214,14] [%emt 0:00:09]} 28.
Nd2 {[%eval 200,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} Rb7 {[%eval 214,11] [%emt 0:00:04]} 29.
Ree1 {(Ta2) [%eval 215,14] [%emt 0:00:07]} f6 {
(Tb2) [%eval 211,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 30. Reb1 {
(Txa6) [%eval 255,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} Rxb1+ {(Tc7) [%eval 234,9] [%emt 0:00:03]
} 31. Rxb1 {[%eval 272,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} f5 {
(Ld7) [%eval 255,11] [%emt 0:00:00]} 32. c4 {(f3) [%eval 277,13] [%emt 0:00:07]
} fxe4 {[%eval 246,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 33. Rb6 {[%eval 283,14] [%emt 0:00:10]}
Rd8 {[%eval 269,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 34. Rb8 {
(Sxe4) [%eval 280,15] [%emt 0:00:13]} Rf8 {[%eval 259,10] [%emt 0:00:02]} 35.
c5 {[%eval 288,15] [%emt 0:00:05]} Bf5 {[%eval 273,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 36.
Rxf8+ {(Tb7) [%eval 288,15] [%emt 0:00:04]} Kxf8 {[%eval 243,8] [%emt 0:00:00]}
37. Nc4 {[%eval 290,15] [%emt 0:00:06]} Ke7 {[%eval 268,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 38.
c6 {[%eval 306,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} h5 {(Lc8) [%eval 291,14] [%emt 0:00:00]} 39.
d6+ {[%eval 326,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} Ke6 {[%eval 314,15] [%emt 0:00:03]} 40. h4
{(Kf1) [%eval 362,15] [%emt 0:00:03]} a5 {[%eval 384,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 41. d7
{(Kh2) [%eval 380,16] [%emt 0:00:03]} Ke7 {[%eval 384,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 42.
Nxa5 {[%eval 417,16] [%emt 0:00:06]} Bxd7 {(Le6) [%eval 431,16] [%emt 0:00:00]}
43. cxd7 {[%eval 450,15] [%emt 0:00:05]} e3 {
(Kxd7) [%eval 507,16] [%emt 0:00:04]} 44. Nc6+ {
(fxe3) [%eval 494,15] [%emt 0:00:04]} Kxd7 {[%eval 478,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 45.
Nxe5+ {[%eval 503,16] [%emt 0:00:00]} Kd6 {(Ke6) [%eval 506,15] [%emt 0:00:09]}
46. f4 {[%eval 504,16] [%emt 0:00:05]} Ke6 {[%eval 585,14] [%emt 0:00:02]} 47.
Kf1 {[%eval 570,17] [%emt 0:00:08]} Kf6 {(Kf5) [%eval 614,13] [%emt 0:00:00]}
48. Ke2 {[%eval 660,16] [%emt 0:00:08]} Kg7 {
(Kf5) [%eval 678,14] [%emt 0:00:00]} 49. Kxe3 {[%eval 678,15] [%emt 0:00:04]}
Kf6 {[%eval 678,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 50. Ke4 {[%eval 717,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} Kg7
{[%eval 731,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 51. Nxg6 {(f5) [%eval 1407,17] [%emt 0:00:02]}
1-0
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-11 21:00

>Rybka plays 4...Bd6?! (also the human version). Is this playable? Score against Toga goes downside quite fast:


This is a bad move. Rybka 3 32-bit plays it until ply 15 i tried. Perhaps for more ply it does not play it.
But what kind of book was that, that left the line there?

Was this a test set? If yes it is not a good one, not because Rybka 3 plays a bad move of course, but because it leaves the engine in a position that they don't understand and should have covered it more.
Parent - By Josef (**) Date 2008-08-11 21:41
I played from Fritz's Openings.cbh without book and tablebases.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-08-11 21:05
Rybka likes blocking central pawns with her pieces. But Vas and Larry know about it :)
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2008-08-11 21:09
Or in  Vas words: This will all be revisited before Rybka 4 ;)
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-08-11 21:11
Rybka 4 will play Ke7-e6 instead to overprotect the e5 pawn ;)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-08-12 02:32
Yes, and amazingly this will turn out to be the secret for another 100+ jump in Elo! :-)
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-08-12 03:12
And the mob will cry enthusiastic :-D. And R4 further on plays special rook endgames like a fool. But nobody cares. I don´t like this Elo horniness!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-08-12 03:45
Rybka 4 will beat Rybka 3 by 100 ELO but will lose to Rybka 2.3.2a by 100 elo!

Vas will be surprised to be trapped on a rock-paper-scissors loop! :-D
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-08-12 15:32
We look for that rock-paper-scissors effect but never see really convincing cases of it. Have you ever observed such cases in the testing, where the results are each more than two sigma significant?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-08-12 19:28
I've seen some cases that resemble this Rock-Paper-Scissors effect but one engine is stronger than the other two (the scissors that beat the rock?) always, so no really convincing cases around here, either.
Parent - - By Trike (**) Date 2008-08-12 05:59
Actually rybka still plays a lot of unsound openings. I just wonder how rybka evaluates openings theory if there is any or if it is possible...
Anyway if i were to verdict rybka's elo based on game phases probably this would be rybka's elo IMHO:
early openings: 2710
late openings: 2910
early middlegame: 3080
late middlegame: 3220
endgame: 3070
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-08-12 06:03
Rybka 3 plays the opening way better than Rybka 2.3.2a.
Parent - By exigentsky (***) Date 2008-08-12 10:25
I'd say early opening with Rybka left entirely to her own devices is no more than 2000 (Bd6 is part of the reason why) but I agree with your other numbers.
Parent - - By Laszlo (***) Date 2008-08-12 14:46
I don't agree...Fd6 is very unesthetic but playable move. I'm playing a thematic tournament with this. (5 min +2'' time control). The first game...

[Event "[#42]  bad move"]
[Site "Local computer"]
[Date "2008.08.12"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Rybka 3 Human w32"]
[Black "Rybka 3 w32"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2nb1n2/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "5 min/game + 2 sec/move"]

1. d3 O-O 2. Nbd2 a6 3. Bxc6 dxc6 4. Nc4 b5 5. Na5 Bd7 6. h3 Qe7 7. Be3 c5 8.
a3 c4 9. Qe2 Rfe8 10. Rac1 h6 11. Rcd1 cxd3 12. Qxd3 b4 13. axb4 Bxb4 14. Nc4
Bb5 15. Nfxe5 Bd6 16. Nf3 Qe6 17. b3 Nxe4 18. Rfe1 Rad8 19. Ba7 Bxc4 20. bxc4
a5 21. Nd4 Qe5 22. g3 Bf8 23. f4 Qh5 24. g4 Qg6 25. c5 Nxc5 26. Rxe8 Rxe8 27.
Qxg6 fxg6 28. Nb3 Nb7 29. Ra1 Ra8 30. Bd4 a4 31. Kf2 Bd6 32. Kf3 Nd8 33. Ra2
Ne6 34. Be3 a3 35. Nc1 Ra4 36. Nd3 Nd4+ 37. Bxd4 Rxd4 38. Ke3 Rc4 39. Kd2 Re4
40. c3 Kf7 41. c4 Rxc4 42. Rxa3 Rxf4 43. Rc3 Re4 44. Nc5 Bf4+ 45. Kd3 Re3+ 46.
Kd4 Rxc3 47. Kxc3 Be3 48. Nd7 Ke6 49. Nf8+ Kf6 50. Kc4 Kg5 51. Kd3 Bg1 52. Ke2
c5 53. Kf3 c4 54. Kg3 h5 55. Ne6+ Kf6 56. Nc7 Bd4 57. Kf3 Be5 58. Nd5+ Kg5 59.
gxh5 gxh5 60. Nb4 Kh4 61. Kg2 c3 0-1
Parent - - By SR (****) Date 2008-08-12 14:58
Maybe Bd6!? is a new interesting idea! However 3.Bxc6 is certainly not the way to "punish" Bd6. After 3...dxc6 a common type of position has arrived, where the black bishop in fact belongs to d6.

Parent - By Laszlo (***) Date 2008-08-12 15:04
Rybka is just revolutioning the modern opening theory!... I think seriously. :)
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-08-12 15:46
well, ok, we can safely conclude that with "normal" moves (Re1, c3 d4) white will have a better position than if black would have played a good move instead of Bd6. Rybka is not perfect :)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-12 16:04
How can this be an interesting idea?
4...Bd6 blocks the d-Pawn so it blocks the h3-c8 diagonal for the light square Bishop, it also restricts the mobility of the Queen and obviously the d6-Bishop has to move again to a better square to free the position.
And if you add to all these that with 4...Bc5 or 4...Be7 you can avoid all these troubles then i don't think 4...Bd6 is a good idea.

I have statistics for this out of around 190 games: White: 82%, Draw: 7%, Black: 11%.  No player above 2500 ELO though played any such move.
Parent - By SR (****) Date 2008-08-12 16:28
The bishop often move twice in the Spanish opening  (e.g. Bf8-e7 and then later Be7-f8) so it hard to see why Bf8-d6 followed by Bd6-f8 is so much worse. It all boils down to concrete variations. My guess is that these concrete lines favors white, but I would not rule out Bd6 just from general principles.  
Parent - - By Laszlo (***) Date 2008-08-12 16:30
Don't try reglementing everything, please... even the opening theory. It is a moving-changing thing, the chess theory, I beg your pardon.

This is a game specially dedicated for you by the Monster of Loch Ness...

[Event "[#42]  bad move"]
[Site "Local computer"]
[Date "2008.08.12"]
[Round "2.3"]
[White "Monster of Loch Ness or Toga2cpu"]
[Black "Rybka 3 Human w32"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2nb1n2/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "5 min/game + 2 sec/move"]

1. d4 Qe7 2. c4 Nxd4 3. Nxd4 exd4 4. e5 Qxe5 5. Re1 Ne4 6. g3 f5 7. Bf4 Qc5 8.
Bxd6 cxd6 9. f3 d3+ 10. Kh1 a6 11. Ba4 b5 12. cxb5 axb5 13. Bb3 Kd8 14. fxe4
fxe4 15. Qd2 e3 16. Qg2 Ra7 17. Bd5 Rf8 18. a4 Rxa4 19. Rxa4 bxa4 20. Bf3 e2
21. Nc3 d2 0-1
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-12 16:35
This game does not prove anything about this move.
You matched 2 programs that are so far away in strength. Rybka 3 is much stronger than all public Toga's.
Parent - By Laszlo (***) Date 2008-08-12 16:46
But if I remember, The first game in this topic was a Toga victory. My tournament is finishing. The final statistic is +3-3=6 This game is also for you...

[Event "[#42]  bad move"]
[Site "Local computer"]
[Date "2008.08.12"]
[Round "1.2"]
[White "Rybka 3 Dynamic w32"]
[Black "Rybka 3 Human w32"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2nb1n2/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "5 min/game + 2 sec/move"]

1. d3 a6 2. Bxc6 dxc6 3. h3 O-O 4. Nbd2 Be6 5. Ng5 Bd7 6. Nc4 b5 7. Nxd6 cxd6
8. f4 Qb6+ 9. Rf2 Rfe8 10. Nf3 c5 11. fxe5 dxe5 12. Be3 Qd6 13. Qe2 Rac8 14.
Rd1 Qe6 15. b3 c4 16. Bg5 cxb3 17. axb3 h6 18. Bc1 a5 19. Bb2 Qd6 20. Ra1 a4
21. bxa4 bxa4 22. Qe3 Nh5 23. g4 Nf6 24. Ba3 Qc7 25. Qd2 Nh7 26. Kh1 Rb8 27.
Bb4 Nf8 28. Nh4 Qb6 29. c3 Ne6 30. Nf5 Nc5 31. Raf1 Bxf5 32. gxf5 Nb3 33. Qe2
Kh8 34. Rg2 Rg8 35. Qf3 Rbd8 36. Qe2 Qa6 37. Rd1 Rd7 38. Rg3 Rgd8 39. Ba3 Qc6
40. Qg2 f6 41. Rg1 Qc7 42. Bb4 Qa7 43. Qc2 Qb7 44. Qg2 Rg8 45. Qe2 Qa8 46. Qg2
a3 47. Qa2 Rgd8 48. d4 exd4 49. Rg4 Qa4 50. Qg2 Qa7 51. cxd4 a2 52. Ba5 Nxa5
53. Qxa2 Nc6 54. Qxa7 Rxa7 55. d5 Ne5 56. R4g2 Nf3 57. Rd1 Ng5 58. Re2 Ra4 59.
e5 Ne4 60. Rd3 fxe5 61. Rde3 Nf6 62. Rxe5 Rxd5 63. Kh2 Ra3 64. Rxd5 Nxd5 65.
Rd2 Nf4 66. h4 Kg8 67. Rd7 Rh3+ 68. Kg1 Rxh4 69. Kf2 Nh5 70. Kg2 Rf4 71. Rc7
Rxf5 0-1
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-08-12 15:35
The same 4...Bd6 move is quite a good move in the same position but with Nc3 in place of 0-0. It is played by strong GMs and was recommended in my own chess book, which was pre-Rybka. It's not quite as good in the given position, but not all that bad. If Black has time to castle, play Re8, and ...Bf8 all will be fine.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-12 17:55
Is it really so terrible? Black can continue with .. a6 and .. b5 and but the other bishop on b7.

Vas
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Dubious opening move

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