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Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 01:46
By someone that ABSOLUTELY does not matter.  A judgement on YOUR character has ALSO been given.  By myself.  By Mark.  By Harvey.  I'm not going to name them all, the posts are on CCC and you have read / responded to them.
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) Date 2012-01-15 18:51
Lol Bob,  I am not criticising everything, just you my friend.

I am not an expert as you correctly pointed out, but if being an expert means being ridiculed by my colleagues as a Facebook/Internet forum addict on Chessbase, then I'll let you keep that distinction.  

Knowing the history of computer chess or ICGA or whatever the hell you were talking about doesn't mean that you own any of those entities.   Your boss Levy brought all of this to public attention, right?  I mean he could have just published your report in your journal and left it at that, right?    He sought the publicity, but now you don't want the public to comment on it because we are too ignorant.  

If you go into a hospital for a hernia repair and die the next day, that probably means that someone screwed up, right?   Does your family have to know the anatomy of inguinal canal to reach that conclusion?  As I said before, your process was faulty making all your technical conclusions invalid.    You have lied repeatedly here, again making all your technical conclusions invalid.

Speaking of installing programs, I am gonna load up the CD of the pictures of my family swimming with the dolphins here in Mexico.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 01:44
I am CERTAINLY not a facebook addict.  Don't even have a facebook page and don't intend to.

Again, you guys DO love your exaggerations, don't you?  Be nice to see the occasional statement that is simply correct.  But I am wise enough to not hold my breath.
Parent - By Venator (Silver) Date 2012-01-17 17:38
you guys DO love your exaggerations

The biggest exaggerations come from you, Bob:

1. 'This case is 100% water tight';
2. 'I am 100% right about this case and you are 100% wrong';
3. 'The ICGA report is 100% correct in all its statements and findings';
4. '74.7% eval overlap and the chosen criteria are very sound and fool proof';
5. 'Ed and Trotsky do not understand anything of programming';

And so forth. Somebody who always thinks he is right (even at a 100% rate!) is clearly not able to look in the mirror and admit that he is wrong from time to time.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-12 21:54
I don't think there is any answer forthcoming about that.  Your conclusion (copy/paste) is the only viable explanation for that case...
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2012-01-13 12:42
In lynch justice this would be enough for a private death verdict. But not in legal justice. Sorry so much.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-14 04:18
Do you have some sort of obsession with the concept of "lynching"?
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2012-01-14 12:27
A phobia, yes.
Parent - - By bobbysmith76 (*) Date 2012-01-15 06:55 Edited 2012-01-15 07:02
i think that rebel schroder guy lost all credibility. he said he didn't even have crafty 19. he apparently didn't do enough research and instead immediately asserted that that code originated in crafty 22.2. schroder might be a paid troll by the chessbase company.
"After The Terminator came out, writer Harlan Ellison sued the production company for plagiarizing two episodes he wrote for The Outer Limits. Even though Cameron took Ellison's ideas in a very different and novel direction, the company settled with Ellison, who is now acknowledged in the film's credits."

copying happens all the time. james cameron made millions of dollars and brought a 3-d visual to the audience. people want to be entertained.

i think that vasik copied a little code here and there, but i don't care. i'm not coming from a legal or financial perspective. this was years ago, and i just want the strongest program. i've enjoyed using rybka in the past.

let's move on.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-15 07:55
Ed did a lot of serious research and was responsible for uncovering many problems in the ICGA's report. But I agree with you, no sense in continuing to beat a dead horse. Let's move on.
Parent - - By bobbysmith76 (*) Date 2012-01-15 14:44 Edited 2012-01-15 14:52
i'm not a computer expert. i'm a layman.

but from my opinion, schroder sounds like an amateur with english as his 2nd language.

honestly it seems hyatt has countered him well in the openchess forum.

the parts i have issue with are the "suicide" and "reverse engineering is fair game" quotes from hyatt. if you dislike the american president, certainly you wouldn't say that to his face at a convention dinner.
Parent - By AWRIST (****) Date 2012-01-15 16:16
bobbysmith76, you are not trustable.  Your message is inconsistent to you appearance.  You attack a very important clarifying expert who has no other agenda than supporting legal justice against the lynch justice of Bob Hyatt. But I have never seen you in the scene before and I am talking about the last 20 years. So, how can this possibly be that a newcomer creates a scapegoat? What is your dirty secret?

You simply cannot put Hyatt over Schroder if you are in favor of Rajlich. The evil person, or call him the devil, this is Bob here in that game and Ed tries to contradict him all in the defense of Vas. However if you are the late late grandgrandson of the last inquisitor of America, then of course you feel at ease in Bob's arms.

In Europe we have finished the intermezzo with the inquisition for over 500 years by now. Slavery in Europe has been forgotten for 2000 years by now! For ages the computerchess champion always came out of Europe in return... We invented fair play in sports. ("Thou shalt not cheat!")

Please learn these lines by heart and then you are able to follow the debates here.

The vast majority here is against voodoo, lynching and witch hunting.:cool:
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-15 17:25

> but from my opinion, schroder sounds like an amateur with english as his 2nd language.

This debate is not decided, nor a contest on eloquence.
Parent - By Ugh (*****) Date 2012-01-15 17:29
Your English is quite good, for a foreigner ;-)
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-15 17:28

> i think that rebel schroder guy lost all credibility. he said he didn't even have crafty 19

It's because you said you are a layman.

You fell into the trap Bob trying to change the subject.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 02:35
Bob is not "changing the subject."  I pointed out that (a) the semantic equivalence you claim is NOT there because fruit does MUCH more for trapped bishops than Crafty does.  and (b) that the code in crafty you question was present 2+ years BEFORE fruit existed.  So it was not copied.

Both points seem simple enough to understand to me...
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 13:32 Edited 2012-01-16 13:36
Don't claim you are the inventor of the MG/EG interpolation stuff, you are not, that's Dusan Dobes author of Phalanx 5-6 years before MG/EG interpolation was implemented in Crafty 22.2 on a massive scale.

Interesting enough both Dusan and Vas grew up in Czechoslovakia
Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 14:46
Where did I claim I invented the idea.

However, if you look at the ORIGINAL crafty in 1995, you see a very clear variation on the theme, where SOME middlegame stuff (king safety) is scaled down as material comes off, EXACTLY as the interpolated approach does it, and SOME endgame stuff (passed pawn advancement, outside passed pawn bonuses, etc) are scaled up as material comes off, EXACTLY as the interpolated approach does it.  If you look at the Cray Blitz source, you will see EXACTLY the same thing.

Here is the code for Crafty 22.0, which is what was used PRIOR to the "interpolated scoring"  You can find this in chess.h if you are interested.  Notice anything familiar about the comments?  I liked the Fruity approach because the scaling was done at one place, right at the end of evaluation code, rather than being done in multiple places after that particular "scalable evaluation code" was finished.

/* the following macros scale parts of the evaluation depending on the
   amount of material remaining on the board, to make endgame stuff more
   important as material comes off, and to make non-endgame stuff like
   king-safety more important until material does come off.
#  define ScaleMG(s)                                                          \
    ((s) * (Min(TotalPieces(white) + TotalPieces(black), 62)) / 62)
#  define ScaleEG(s)                                                          \
    ((s) * (62 - Min(TotalPieces(white) + TotalPieces(black), 42)) / 86)

In Cray Blitz, the idea was similar but inverted:

          if(nppcs .gt. 15) tsafety=tsafety*ishft(nppcs,-1)

If the opponent has more than 15 points of material (q=9, etc), then multiply king safety by opponent material total / 2 (ishft is fortran shift, -1 is right, +1 is left). 

The lack of knowledge about what other chess programmers were doing, WAY before Fruit, is somewhat surprising.  Not everything was invented AFTER 2005 and Fruit.  The above fortran code dates back to the 80's.  Berliner even mentioned the idea in a paper he published explaining why just turning a feature on or off was dangerous, producing a discontinuity in the evaluation space.  This idea has been around FOREVER.  The implementation using two separate scores and interpolating between them was something I first saw in Fruit and looked simpler, even though it is less efficient than what we were doing previously.
- By rocket (****) Date 2012-02-07 19:38 Edited 2012-02-07 19:46
"I think you can take his wording at face value.  If it is your "own code" you wouldn't even have to type it to call it original, now would you?"

Agreed  it's perfectly clear that he meant the literal typing of a code, otherwise his statement is meaningless since it would be a self evident assertion.

Bob is right here
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / A Big Thanks and a Small Update
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