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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / HEM vs. Warriors: post mortem analysis - attached
- - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-06 18:56
Attached as .pgn file and as a chessbase cbh database (compressed using winrar to a single file).
If anyone would be kind and post this as a simple iBook here to allow interactive review of the analysis that would be much appreciated.
Warriors team and everyone else - I welcome your comments and any holes you can find in my analysis.
I believe the current analysis shows Black is losing by force after move 23.

Here is also the text of the pgn (I believe some analysis symbols I used are lost when 'saved as pgn', so you may want to open this in Aquarium or Fritz GUI instead.


[Event "24 hours per move"]
[Site "Rybka forum"]
[Date "2009.11.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Tzafrir, Shahar"]
[Black "Rybka Warriors, Forum"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B20"]
[Annotator "Tzafrir,Shahar"]
[PlyCount "135"]
[EventDate "2009.11.04"]
[EventType "corr"]

{A 24 hour/move game: HEM vs. the Rybka forum team; part of two game
simultaneous white/black match that started on November 4th 2009 and concluded
on December 31st 2009. The other game (Rybka-Warriors had White) ended in a
draw.   State of the art chess-engines / computers were used by both sides
throughout the game.   The Rybka team played in consultation using a team-vote
approach to decide their moves.   According to my post mortem analysis, Black
is losing by force after its 23rd move.} 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 Nf6 $6 {3.
..d5 and 3. ..d6 are more common. Judging by this game, it's clear why.
White's aim in the Wing gambit is to gain time, and Nf6 plays to White's hands.
} 4. e5 Nd5 5. a3 e6 (5... bxa3 6. Bxa3 $32) 6. axb4 Bxb4 7. Na3 {With a
c4->Nc2->Nxb4 plan.} Nc6 ({Only one previous rated game on record with 7.Na3:
[Event "Moscow RGSU-B"] [Date 2006.11. 16"] [Round "11"] [White "Kislov, Oleg"]
[Black "Mozharov, Mikhail"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "2267"] [BlackElo "2418"]
} 7... O-O 8. c4 Nf4 9. Nc2 Ba5 10. Ba3 Re8 11. h4 f6 12. exf6 Qxf6 13. g3 Ng6
14. Bd6 Nc6 15. Bd3 Bc7 $4 16. Bxc7 {1:0}) 8. c4 Nde7 9. Nc2 $146 O-O $6 {An
unwarranted concession of Black's bishop} (9... Ba5 $142 $13) 10. Nxb4 {I
spent 4 tempi to exchange the bishop realizing I have sufficient development
advantage (from the early b4 sac and e5 push) to not incur any penalty doing
so. Black has anyway spent and will spend equal time on his knights jumping
around. More important, White's subsequent plan and moves all follow naturally
after this exchange.} Nxb4 11. Ba3 Nec6 {This is Black's *sixth* Knight jump
in the first eleven moves of the game - 54.5% of Black's opening moves
dedicated to a knight tour.} 12. Qb1 a5 13. Bd3 {Provoking f5 or even better
(for White) g6} f5 (13... h6 $142 $11 {I would have forced a draw had Black
played h6.} 14. Bh7+ Kh8 15. Be4 Rb8 16. O-O d5 17. exd6 Qxd6 18. h3 Rd8 19.
Rd1 b5 20. Bxc6 Qxc6 21. Bxb4 axb4 22. Qxb4 Qxc4 23. Qxc4 bxc4 24. Ne5 Rd5 25.
Nxc4 $11 {While 13. ..h6 was safer, Black can't be blamed, being a pawn up,
for not sensing the danger the position holds and avoiding the drawing line.})
(13... g6 $143 14. h4 $40) 14. Be2 {Lost a tempo but achieved provoking the
weakening f5 that allows the subsequent h3->g4 break ideas for White. An extra
benefit is that f5 also slows down the development of Black's c8 bishop and
cramps Black's position.} d5 15. exd6 Qxd6 16. d4 Bd7 {Start of a slow Black
plan to place the bishop at h5. I'm not sure this was the best plan for Black
as it allows White to peacefully finish development. Then again, it's already
hard to come with a viable other plan.} ({Possibly a better/faster plan was
b6->Bb7->Rad8->Rfe8, or b6->Ba6} 16... b6 $142 17. O-O Bb7 $13 (17... Ba6 $144
$13)) 17. Qb2 Be8 18. O-O Bh5 19. Rfd1 Rae8 $6 {Likely the culprit of Black's
subsequent trouble.} (19... Rac8 $142 20. Rd2 $13 (20. h3 $144 $13) (20. Ng5
$144 Bxe2 21. Qxe2 $13)) 20. Rd2 b6 {Black has a hard time finding a plan as
evident by this last 'waiting' move.} 21. Rad1 $14 Re7 {By now White has more
than enough compensation for the saced pawn - White position is harmonious and
Black needs to struggle to find an equalizing plan.} 22. h3 $1 {Preparing g4!
I played this now before Qb3 and Bb2 to 'hide' the g4 plan and try and make
this look like an inconspicuous 'luft' or waiting move by White. I expected
another waiting move from Black in return per the recent two non-moves Black
just played - most likely h6 that was indeed played. Objectively it's quite
hard to find a plan or a move here for Black that doesn't hurt its position
further.} h6 23. Qb3 Rc8 {According to my post-mortem analysis, White is
winning by force after this move.} 24. Bb2 Nd8 $2 {A 'computer like' move that
is not only 'not pretty' but worse it loses control of the key e5 square and
probably underestimated (or missed?) the strength of White's subsequent two
shots. However it's not easy to come up with a move that offers harder
resistance, as Black is already in a predicament. My analysis post mortem
shows Black is losing by force after White's 24th Bb2 move.} (24... Bxf3 $144 {
An attempt that doesn't seem to work.} 25. Bxf3 Kh7 26. Bc3 $14 (26. Be2 $13))
(24... Rce8 $144 {An attempt that doesn't seem to work.} 25. Nh4 Bxe2 $8 26.
Rxe2 Qd8 (26... g5 $143 27. Ng6 Rg7 28. Ne5 Nxe5 29. Rxe5 Rge7 30. Bc3 Qc7 31.
Bxb4 axb4 32. Qxb4 Rd8 33. Re3 $16) 27. Qf3 (27. Qg3 Rd7 28. Rde1 Qg5) (27. d5
Rd7 28. Nf3 exd5 29. Red2 Kh7 30. cxd5 Ne7 31. d6 Nec6 $13) 27... Rf7 28. Qh5
Qg5 29. Qxg5 hxg5 30. Nf3 Nd8 31. d5 g4 32. hxg4 fxg4 33. Nd4 $16) (24... f4
$142 $5 {Appears to have been Black's best attempt; however it's refuted as
well.} 25. Nh4 $142 (25. Bc3 $143 Ree8 (25... Rb8 26. Qb1 Rd8 27. Ng5 hxg5 28.
Bxh5 $14) (25... Rd8 26. Qb1 b5 27. d5 exd5 28. cxd5 Qc5 29. dxc6 Rxd2 30. Rxd2
Qxc3 31. Qf5 $14) 26. d5 exd5 27. cxd5 Nd8 28. Qb2 Nf7 29. Bxg7 Qg6 30. Nh4
Qxg7 31. Qxg7+ Kxg7 32. Bxh5 Re5 33. Bxf7 Kxf7 34. d6 $13) 25... a4 $142 (25...
Bxe2 $143 26. Rxe2 Rd7 27. d5 Rcd8 28. Bxg7 Kxg7 29. Qf3 Qe7 30. Nf5+ exf5 31.
Rxe7+ Nxe7 32. Re1 $16) 26. Qxa4 Ra7 (26... Bxe2 $143 27. Rxe2 Ra7 28. Qb3 $14)
27. Qb3 Na5 28. Qa3 Bxe2 (28... Nac6 $143 29. Qc3 Bxe2 30. Rxe2 Na5 31. Ba3 $18
) 29. Rxe2 Rcc7 (29... Rxc4 $143 30. d5 $16) 30. Rde1 Nxc4 31. Qb3 Na5 32. Qf3
Nc2 33. Rd1 $16) 25. g4 $1 {White's pieces are all optimally placed. It's time
to convert White's positional advantage to material with the g4 and d5 break.
Any delay in the break could have allowed Black to equalize. It's like knowing
to not fall in love in a stock you own and when to sell - it was hard for me
to 'ruin' White's beautiful position with 25. g4, but the time has come to
break and convert.} fxg4 26. Ne5 Be8 (26... Ndc6 $143 27. hxg4 Be8 28. g5 hxg5
29. Qg3 Nxe5 30. dxe5 Qc7 31. Rd6 Na6 (31... Ba4 32. R1d4 $18) 32. Qxg5 $16)
27. d5 $3 {Thematic break. Chess engines, even after a long analysis time,
don't realize this is the strongest forcing move here.} (27. Bxg4 h5 $14) 27...
exd5 28. Bxg4 Ndc6 {Black is forced to give up an exchange looking for an
endgame he hopes is drawish. Black's alternatives per the following analysis
were worse.} (28... Rcc7 $143 $4 29. Rxd5 Nxd5 30. Rxd5 Qf6 31. Rxd8 $18) (
28... Rc5 $143 29. cxd5 h5 (29... Bb5 30. f4 Rcc7 (30... Kf8 31. Bd4 Rxd5 32.
Bf3 Ndc6 33. Bxd5 $18) 31. Bf5 Be8 32. Rg2 $18) 30. Bf5 h4 31. Nc6 Ndxc6 32.
dxc6+ Bf7 33. Qxb4 axb4 34. Rxd6 $18) (28... Ne6 $142 {28. ..Ne6 offered an
interesting defence although White still reaches a very promising position
through 33. Qe3!} 29. cxd5 Nc5 30. Qc3 Ra8 (30... Rb8 $143 31. Nc4 Qf4 32. Rd4
Ne4 33. Qe3 Qxe3 34. fxe3 Ba4 35. Rc1 Nf6 36. d6 $18) 31. Nc4 Qg6 $8 32. d6 Ne4
33. Qe3 $1 (33. Qc1 $143 Re6 (33... Nxd2 34. dxe7 $18) 34. Kh2 (34. f4 Nxd2 35.
Rxd2 Re4 36. d7 Rd8 37. Nd6 Rxd7 38. Nxe4 Rxd2 39. f5 Rc2 40. fxg6 Rxc1+ 41.
Bxc1 Bxg6 $13) 34... Na2 35. Qa1 Nxd2 36. Rxd2 Bf7 37. Be5 Nb4 38. Nxb6 $14)
33... Nxd2 34. dxe7 Nxc4 35. Qe6+ Kh7 (35... Qxe6 $143 36. Bxe6+ Kh7 37. Rd8
Nxb2 38. Rxa8 $18) 36. Rd8 $16) 29. Bxc8 Nxe5 30. Bxe5 Rxe5 (30... Qxe5 $143
31. cxd5 Bf7 32. Bg4 $14) 31. cxd5 {Black now faces a major decision - 31. ..
Bf7 vs. 31. ..Rg5+. According to the game and the analysis herein, both lose
by force, although 31. ..Rg5+ offered tougher resistance via some very
difficult lines.} Bf7 $4 {Black expects 31. ..Bf7 to lead to a drawish endgame.
However this is refuted in the game and further in the following analysis.
The endgame reached after 31. ..Bf7 while very much outside the horizon of
current chess engines, is losing by force with a simple plan.   The game was
played at a 24 hours per move time-control. However the Black team took a
'time out' and spent 4 days on this difficult move. I dare guess the Black
team ended up playing the more dubious 31. ..Bf7?? due to having over-analyzed
31. ..Rg5+ and not being able to find a forcing drawing line there, opted for
the seemingly more drawish endgame after 31. ..Bf7.  I further believe that
with only 24 hours for the move, the Black team was more likely to have played
the more natural looking 31. ..Rg5+.} (31... Rg5+ $142 {Leads to some very
complicated lines, with 3 main tries for Black, and a very narrow path White
must walk through, with a series of 'only moves' White must find to maintain
the win / avoid a draw.} 32. Kh1 $8 {Black now has 3 main attempts: 32. ..Qf6,
32. ..Bh5, 32. ..a4. And further 2 easier to refute attempts: 32.. Bg6, 32. ..
Bf7. I believe only 32. ..Qf6 challenges White (and I present its refutation
too), but I'll quickly address all five attempts with their respective
refutations.} {First attempt: 32. ..Qf6} Qf6 ({Second attempt: ..Bh5} 32... Bh5
$143 33. Bg4 Bxg4 (33... Bg6 $143 34. Re2 Kh7 35. Re6 Qf4 36. d6) (33... Na6
$143 34. Bxh5 Rxh5 35. Qf3 Rg5 36. Rc2 $16) (33... a4 $143 34. Qg3 Bxg4 35.
hxg4 Qd7 36. f3 Nxd5 $16) 34. hxg4 Rxg4 35. Qh3 Re4 (35... Qd7 $143 36. d6 Nc6
37. f3 Rg1+ 38. Kh2 Qxh3+ 39. Kxh3 Rxd1 40. Rxd1 Kf7 41. Rc1 Nb8 $16) (35... h5
$143 36. f3 Rg6 37. Qc8+ Kh7 38. Qf5 $18) (35... Rf4 $143 36. Qe6+ Qxe6 37.
dxe6 Re4 38. Rd6 $18) (35... Rg6 $143 36. Qc8+ Kh7 37. Qf5 Kg8 38. Rc1 Rf6 39.
Rc8+ $18) 36. Qc8+ Qf8 37. Qxf8+ Kxf8 38. d6 Re8 39. d7 Rd8 $16) ({Third
attempt: ..a4} 32... a4 $143 33. Qf3 Bh5 34. Bg4 Bxg4 35. hxg4 Na6 36. Rd4 Nc5
37. Kg2 Kh7 38. Qf4 Rg6 39. Qxd6 Rxd6 40. Rb4 $18) ({Fourth attempt: ..Bg6:}
32... Bg6 $143 33. Be6+ Kh7 (33... Kh8 $143 34. Qe3 $18) 34. Qf3 Bh5 (34... Nc6
$143 35. h4 Rh5 36. Kg2 Ne5 37. Qf4 $18) 35. Bf5+ Kh8 36. Bg4 Bxg4 37. hxg4 $18
) ({Fifth attempt: ..Bf7:} 32... Bf7 $143 33. Be6 Qf4 (33... Na6 $143 34. Re2
$18) 34. Qe3 Qxe3 (34... Qf6 $143 35. f4 $16) 35. fxe3 Bxe6 (35... Re5 $143 36.
Bxf7+ Kxf7 37. d6 $18) 36. dxe6 Re5 37. Rd6 $18) 33. Re1 $3 {All other
attempts e.g. 33. d6+, 33. h4 only draw.} Ba4 (33... Bf7 $143 34. Be6 a4 35.
Qd1 a3 36. Bxf7+ Qxf7 37. d6 a2 38. d7 a1=Q 39. d8=Q+ Kh7 40. Qe8 Qc3 41. Qe4+
Qf5 42. f3 Nc6 43. Qdc2 Qxc2 44. Rxc2 Nd4 45. Rc3 Rg6 46. Qxf5 Nxf5 $18 {
Reaches the same type of won end-game the game has reached. White will win the
b pawn, force exchanging rooks etc as in the game.}) 34. Qe3 Kh8 35. Be6 Nc2 $8
36. Rxc2 Bxc2 37. f4 Rg6 $8 38. Qe5 (38. d6 $143 Ba4 39. Qf3 Qd8 40. f5 Rf6 41.
Qd5) 38... Kh7 (38... Qxe5 $143 39. fxe5 $18) 39. f5 Rg5 $8 40. Qxf6 gxf6 41.
d6 Ba4 (41... Rg3 $143 42. d7 Rxh3+ 43. Kg2 Rd3 44. Rc1 Ba4 45. Rc7 $18) 42.
Rc1 Rg7 43. h4 $18) 32. Be6 $18 {White plan is simple: win Blacks a & b pawns
without making any concessions. Activate the rooks, force swapping rooks and
reach a won K+R+PP vs. K+N+PP 8 pieces end-game. Chess engines have a hard
time evaluating this endgame, forming and executing this plan as it's outside
the horizon and 6-pieces tablebase offer surprisingly little help. Instead the
chess engines shuffle pieces without their eval making much progress. This is
a nice example where a long term human plan sees, well, longer.} Bxe6 (32...
Qe7 33. Bxf7+ Qxf7 34. f4 Rf5 35. Qc4 Rxf4 36. Qc8+ Kh7 37. d6 $18) 33. dxe6
Qxe6 34. Rd8+ Kh7 $8 35. Qxe6 Rxe6 36. R8d6 Re4 37. Rxb6 a4 38. Ra1 Nd5 (38...
Nd3 $144 39. Ra3 Rd4 (39... Nf4 40. Ra6) 40. Rb7) 39. Rb7 h5 $2 {Unnecessary
weakening of the pawn structure. Black's plan was to play h4 later and try to
create a fortress. However it does not work.} 40. Kg2 $1 {Essential part of
the winning plan. Not allow the king to get caged.} Rd4 (40... h4 {[%emt 0:00:
00] Post mortem one of Black's comments was they believed 40. ..h4 could have
created a fortress. This segment refutes that.} 41. Rg1 Ne7 (41... Re6 42. Kf3
Ne7 43. Rg4 Rf6+ 44. Kg2 Nf5 (44... Ng6 45. Ra7 a3 (45... Nf4+ 46. Kf1 Ng6 47.
Raxa4 Rc6 48. Kg2 Rf6 49. Rge4 Rb6 50. f4 Rb7 51. f5 Ne7 52. Rxh4+ Kg8 $18) 46.
Rxa3 Nf4+ 47. Kf1 Ng6 48. Ke2 Nf4+ 49. Kd2 Rd6+ (49... Ng6 50. Ke3 Rb6 51. f4
Kg8 52. Rg5 Ne7 53. Kf3 Rb7 54. Kg4 Rc7 55. Kxh4 $18) 50. Ke3 Nd5+ 51. Kf3 Nf6
52. Rxh4+ $18) 45. Rxa4 Kg6 (45... Rg6+ 46. Rg4 Ra6 47. Rgb4) 46. Rba7 Kh5 47.
R4a6 Rxa6 (47... Rf8 48. f4 Rd8 49. Kf3) 48. Rxa6 Nd4 49. Ra5+ Kg6 50. Ra4 Nf5
51. Kf3 Nh6 52. Rxh4) (41... Rc4 42. Kh2 Nc7 43. Rg4 Rc2 44. Rxh4+ $18) 42. Kf3
Re6 43. Rg4 Rf6+ 44. Rf4 Nf5 45. Ra7 a3 46. Rxa3 Kg6 47. Ra5 Kg5 48. Rg4+ Kh6
49. Rga4 Nd4+ 50. Ke3 Nf5+ 51. Ke4 Nd6+ 52. Kd5 Ne8 53. Rxh4+ Kg6 $18) 41. Ra7
Nc3 $6 {Losing another tempo. However there are no better alternatives by now
anyway.} 42. Rc1 Nd5 43. Rc6 $1 {Much better than 43. Rg1 - a plan that some
chess engines opt for but doesn't seem to work. 43. Rc6 activates the rook.}
Nf4+ 44. Kg3 {White's plan is to accept a few Checks from Black, and in
between play f3 and h4 to get control of g5 to place there a rook later -
threatening to win either g or h pawn thus forcing exchanging rooks.} a3 45.
Rcc7 Ne6 $8 46. Re7 Rd6 47. Rxa3 {First part of the plan complete.} Kh6 48.
Rea7 {White now needs to force exchanging a pair of rooks to reach a won
end-game. Still most chess engines are unable to determine a winning plan here.
} Nc5 49. f3 $1 Rg6+ 50. Kf2 Rd6 51. h4 $1 {Second part of the plan complete.
Getting control of the key g5 square to allow placing a rook there in some
possible lines.} Nd3+ 52. Kg2 Rg6+ 53. Kh2 Nc5 54. Rc3 Ne6 55. Ra5 Nf4 56. Rf5
Ne2 {Ends the game at once by giving up Blacks h5 pawn, however all other
options lose fast as well.} (56... Rf6 $144 57. Rcc5 Kg6 (57... Rxf5 58. Rxf5
Ne2 59. Re5 Nd4 60. Kg3 g6 61. Kf4 Nc6 62. Rd5 Nb4 63. Rd6 Na2 64. Ke5 Nc3 65.
Kf6 Ne2 66. Rd8 Kh7 67. Kg5 Kg7 68. Rd7+ Kf8 69. Kf6 $18 {With mate shortly})
58. Rg5+ Kh6 59. Rcf5 Rxf5 (59... Ne2 60. Rxh5+ Kg6 61. Rhg5+ Kh6 62. Rxf6+
gxf6 63. Rc5 $18 {With mate shortly.}) 60. Rxf5 Ne6 61. Re5 $18 {With mate
shortly. This position highlights White's end-game plan after Black's 31. ..
Bf7 - exchanging rooks and reaching a won position, even had Black not
weakened the h6 pawn.}) 57. Rcc5 Ra6 58. Rxh5+ Kg6 59. Rhg5+ Kh6 60. Rc8 g6 (
60... Kh7 61. Rc7 Rg6 62. Rxg6 Kxg6 63. h5+ $18 {Reaching a won 6 pieces table
base positions in a few moves.}) 61. Rgc5 (61. Rg4 {Most chess engines prefer
Rg4, however as played 61. Rgc5 ends the game equally fast.}) 61... Ra4 (61...
Ra7 $144 62. R5c7 Rxc7 $8 63. Rxc7 $18 {Reaches a won 6 pieces table-base
position in a few moves}) 62. Rc4 Ra3 (62... Ra2 $144 63. Rc2 Rxc2 64. Rxc2 $18
{Reaches a won 6 pieces table-base position in a few moves.}) 63. R4c7 g5 $8
64. Rc6+ Kg7 65. R8c7+ Kf8 66. Rf6+ Kg8 67. Re6 Kf8 68. Rxe2 {Followed by mate.
The game ran from November 4th until December 31st 2009.} 1-0
Attachment: HEM-Warriors.rar (7k)
Attachment: Analysis.pgn (15k)
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-06 21:52
attachment AN only runs to move 7 in chessbase,with 1-0
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-01-06 22:05
same for pgn file
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-06 22:09
sorry i meant pgn file,other attachment ok.
Parent - By Akbarfan (***) Date 2010-01-06 23:01
Delete just the [ ] brackets in this part, so it should be:  ({Only one previous rated game on record with 7.Na3:
Event "Moscow RGSU-B" Date 2006.11. 16" Round "11" White "Kislov, Oleg"
Black "Mozharov, Mikhail" Result "1-0" WhiteElo "2267" BlackElo "2418"}
that worked, [ ]  makes trouble in the beginning from a variant in pgn files.
Parent - - By Kappatoo (*****) Date 2010-01-06 22:52
"3...d5 and 3. ..d6 are more common. Judging by this game, it's clear why.
White's aim in the Wing gambit is to gain time, and Nf6 plays to White's hands."

What? Firstly, you were just worse after the opening. Secondly, I guess you would also call 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 dubious and recommend 2...d5?

"13. Bd3 {Provoking f5 or even better
(for White) g6} f5 (13... h6 $142 $11 {I would have forced a draw had Black
played h6.} 14. Bh7+ Kh8 15. Be4 Rb8 16. O-O d5 17. exd6 Qxd6 18. h3 Rd8 19.
Rd1 b5 20. Bxc6 Qxc6 21. Bxb4 axb4 22. Qxb4 Qxc4 23. Qxc4 bxc4 24. Ne5 Rd5 25.
Nxc4 $11 {While 13. ..h6 was safer, Black can't be blamed, being a pawn up,
for not sensing the danger the position holds and avoiding the drawing line.})14. Be2 {Lost a tempo but achieved provoking the
weakening f5 that allows the subsequent h3->g4 break ideas for White. An extra
benefit is that f5 also slows down the development of Black's c8 bishop and
cramps Black's position.} d5 15. exd6 Qxd6 16. d4"

Here's my take on this (crucial) part of the game. Our team repeatedly had problems determining candidate moves, and I think here, this had very negative consequences. On move 13, it was a close race between h6 and f5. But the thing is that after f5, we completely focused on 14.0-0 and exf6.  All of this looked quite promising, and slightly more promising than the lines after ...h6. Only very shortly before a move had to be played Turbo said something like 'my IDeA has 14.Be2 as best, I think he will play this'. To the best of my knowledge, there was no serious (public) analysis on this before we played this move. (I for example was not online when Turbo posted this and only saw it after the move had been made.) I did not look this up again, if my account is inaccurate in some respect, I hope one of my teammates will correct me.
I think if one looks at the position arising a few moves later (after 16.d4), it is clear that f5 is a serious weakening and that white suddenly has good compensation. In the lines we had looked at, white was never able to take on d6 and get in d4.
So, although your analysis after this was also deeper than ours, this was a crucial situation in the match. I don't want to blame the time control again, but it was clear that we were struggling to get a reasonably structured analysis. We would have needed someone who is responsible for the coordination, but this would have been a very time-consuming job, so it's understandable that noone was willing or able to do this.
One more comment on 13...h6: I think it is clear that black would have been at least slightly better after this, and this was also clear to us during the game. The line you give is quite long and I guess there are some ways to deviate from it for either side. However, the final position of your line is this:
1rbr3k/5pp1/4p2p/4N3/2p5/7P/3P1PP1/R2R2K1 b - - 0 24

Of course this is objectively drawn, but it's clear that it's white who has to fight for a draw here.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-01-06 23:04

> Secondly, I guess you would also call 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 dubious and recommend 2...d5?

It's the other way around, actually.

Of course, as I'm a 2. c3 player myself, you may or may not want to take my advice with a grain of salt. :)
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2010-01-06 23:12
I think that his point is that both moves are fine, thus questioning the logic used against ...Nf6 in our game.

Personally, I find it easier to play against 2...Nf6 in the Alapin than against 2...d5, even though I studied the ...d5 lines in more detail (primarily due to the Deep Blue 1996 games).
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-07 00:20
very good Kappatoo,i still stand by my move 3...e6 which HEM has ignored in his AN.
Parent - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-07 00:31
I think 3. ..e6 too was better than Nf6 as well. So we don't disagree. I just quoted the two more common responses to the Wing.
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-07 00:29

> Of course this is objectively drawn but it's clear that it's white who has to fight for a draw here.

Of course, totally agree with you. I actually posted this line right after you played f5 instead of h6, back on November 18th, within the game thread. See here:;pg=2
And quoting from there:
"Btw - to compare notes - here's what I think might have happened had you opted for 13. ..h6:
14. bh7 Kh8 15. Be4 Rb8 (Ra6 is worse, but it takes the engines a long time to figure this out) 16. 0-0 d5 (or d6 - same - all other options worse for Black) 17. exd6 Qxd6 18. h3 (surprise! the engines prefers Re1 - but h3 gives Black some chance to go wrong) Rd8 (all other moves gives white some winning chances - but Rd8 seals the draw) 19. Rd1 b5 (almost only move for Black here) 20. Bxc6 (forced liquidation begins - White has no more attacking chances so must switch to a boring drawn end-game) Qxc6 21. Bxb4 axb4 22. Qxb4 Qxc4 23. Qxc4 bxc4 24. Ne5 Rd5 25. Nxc4
And here the engines really prefer Black - but it's an obvious dead drawn position. So glad you decided to avoid that."

So I agree, White will need to 'work' for this draw, had you opted for h6, but it's pretty sealed. Let's say we both 100% agree that in CC t/c that position is drawn?

As to

>What? Firstly, you were just worse after the opening. Secondly, I guess you would also call 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 dubious and recommend 2...d5?

Of course I was worse. In the Sicilian Wing gambit White is worse by definition - he should struggle just to draw :)
My claim is that your 3. ..Nf6 while of course not a losing move, did help White in the struggle to equalize, by giving me more space and more time.
After this game, should I face the Wing as Black, trust me - you won't find me playing 3. ..Nf6.

And as to the time control used - yes, it played to my favour. I also worked hard (very hard) to respond as fast as possible to your moves to not give you any rest.
All is fair in love and war. I only play to win. But I do hope your team enjoyed this game as much as I did - it was a good one.
And, just for the heck of it - a quick summary of Sun Tzu: "Never pick a fair fight" :)
Parent - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-07 00:57
Let me somewhat restate the tone of my post above: I'm not into butting heads, rather have a good time getting to the bottom of this game i.e. determine as close as I can - and I hope with the Warrior's team support - the truth in this insanely infinite game of chess we love, as it pertains to this specific game we played together.

My last two comments about no fair fights etc - while they are my character - do not serve to the purpose above so please take them as a joyful banter and ignore them other than that.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-01-07 07:05

> But I do hope your team enjoyed this game as much as I did

Impossible! You won the game, you can't ask for that level of enjoyment.

I still enjoyed the game very much, and wanted to have fun until the last moment (by posting at the last minute of the year and actually holding to my promise of never resigning the game), truth is that at some point of the game I didn't know how to analyze it at all, the positions were just crazy and led to our team self refuting the best moves and making the job easier for you, congrats for that.

And since the start of the game you had a winning strategy, I think we were victim of the Xanatos Gambit :)
Parent - - By Elderta (**) Date 2010-01-07 12:26

> my promise of never resigning

Too much idiot to recognize the need to resign? :D
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 00:43
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 00:45
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 00:47
It was really random which if that idiot's responses I "appended" that to--he has not made a single intelligent post since joining the forum.  He should be deleted.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 00:59
keep cool,let these guys post.nobody takes any notice.this is what Felix should be doing deleting these peole instead of transfering posts from one thread to another.i have had complaints from people who are not forum members for whatever reason complaining that all our opinions of RL on the forum just seem to vanish.
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-08 01:33
Indeed he is, but rule number one is to not feed them :)
They need attention.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 01:40
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on :)
Parent - By Caissafan (***) Date 2010-01-07 11:53
... that is fine, very interesting!
Please, deliver your IDeA analysis, too as promised in past and I was lucky. I am a true fan of the Sicilian Wing gambit.   ;-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2010-01-07 23:52
You are accurate about the rated novelty game, but I assume you are also aware of the 2007 Zap!Chess-Chiron game that took things one move further into book.  Just a minor footnote.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 00:10
your magic Nelson.
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-08 01:34
Yes - found that in the secret thread posted by you, and was awe struck as always with the incredible work you do on your database and the wealth of info you have. Gold mine :)
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2010-01-08 03:10
More like a tin mine when people play wing gambits. :(
Parent - By Michiel Wind (*) Date 2010-01-09 06:52
Hi Shahar, I am preparing a 3rd article about the Wing Gambit (this time 3rd move deviations for White and Black, this includes 3.Nf3) for the magazine Kaissiber, is it ok if I copy some of your analysis?
Parent - - By CSullivan (**) Date 2010-04-27 19:57
I finally got around to looking at this analysis  (I must credit Dadi Jonsson's ChessCafe article for pointing me here), and I must agree that 27.d5! is an outstanding move.  After White's 39th move
8/1R4pk/7p/3n4/p3r3/7P/5P2/R5K1 b - - 0 39

Black played 39...h5 (correctly annotated as an error) and is completely lost.  However, after something like 39...Nf4 40.Ra3 Ne2+ 41.Kf1 Nf4 42.Rg3 Nh5 43.Rg4 Re6 (43...Rxg4 is certainly lost), White's win is not so obvious [to me, at least]:
8/1R4pk/4r2p/7n/p5R1/7P/5P2/5K2 w - - 0 44

Demonstrating a win after White's 39th move might have some theoretical importance.   Perhaps you have already done the analysis that shows how White can force the exchange of rooks, thereby producing a won game?
Best regards,
Charlie Sullivan
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-04-27 20:02
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I really like that 27. d5 too =)
I recall I have analyzed and reached a winning line after alternatives to 39. ..h5?.
My fiscal quarter closes on April 30th and I'll have time to dig up that analysis (or analyze from scratch if I can't find it) to come up with the plan and specific examples to try and show a win after your 39. ..Nf4.
Stay tuned ;)

Parent - By CSullivan (**) Date 2010-04-28 16:55
Here is one more line, perhaps a more interesting one, considering that 39...h5 was a serious error:
39...Nf4 40.Ra3 h5 (this is now playable since the knight prevents Kg2) and Black will probably get what he wants; for example: 41.Ra7 h4 42.R3xa4 Rxa4 43.Rxa4 g5
8/7k/8/6p1/R4n1p/7P/5P2/6K1 w - - 0 44

Here the knight, by keeping an eye on the h3-pawn, apparently prevents White from starting a coordinated attack with king and rook.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-04-30 12:43 Edited 2010-04-30 12:50
i also had a look again at this line and am interested to learn what your refutation is of 39.. Nf4. not so easy imo.

39.. Kg6 is also interesting, eg after

8/1R4p1/6kp/3n4/p3r3/7P/5P2/R5K1 w - -

40. Ra3 Rh4 41. Ra7 Nf4 42. Kh2 Kf6 43.R7xa4

8/6p1/5k1p/8/R4n1r/R6P/5P1K/8 b - -

how does white make progress?
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-04-30 09:46
do you have a link for the chesscafe article, can't find it easily
Parent - By CSullivan (**) Date 2010-04-30 21:24
Here is the permalink:
see page 6

Or just go to the home page, scroll down until you see Dadi Jonsson's column, etc.
Parent - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-05-13 16:24
I found my IDEA tree and annotation file.
Had Black played 39. ..Nf4 instead of h5?, White does not continue 40. Ra3 as in your notes =)
I'll re-check my lines with R4beta and post them later. However I remain confident White wins by force. It's interesting how much better R4 is vs. any other engine out there, in seeing the position is won for white very early. Both R3 and Stockfish 1.7.1 have no clue what's going on and just shuffle pieces. I'm very impressed with how R4 understands this endgame so much better.
- - By Rowlando (***) Date 2010-01-07 09:25
I'm still not convinced that 31...Rg5 -> Qf6 is lost.  The reason I pushed hard for this variation is because it led to an endgame where white clearly had the wrong bishop.  Maybe there's a forced win eventually but I don't think it's accurate to call your analysis a refutation when it ends in this position:

8/6rk/1p1PBp1p/p4P2/b6P/8/8/2R4K b - -

Black's in a tough spot for sure but the weak bishop makes it difficult for white to get any mileage of out of the passer.
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-01-07 10:55
Rowlando - thank you for your post.

My bad - I should have posted the subsequent lines, but they divert in several ways and I was too lazy.
I was lazy as to me this position looks trivially won - I played around with a chess engine support this morning to re-check myself and couldn't find any way to defend it.
White's will within 7-10 moves force Black to sac the bishop on the d7 square to stop the passer. Then keep the black king locked on the king side, win the a & b pawns with the king and rook, or via mate threats force exchanging rooks even before winning the pawns.

It's not a 'wrong bishop' endgame, thanks to the mighty f5 pawn that wins the day. After all the above White would win the Black f6 pawn via opposition - pushing the Black king away, and vuala, it's over.

I'll take some time and write the key lines and alternatives and post them here to try to prove my case.
Parent - By Rowlando (***) Date 2010-01-07 18:25

> I was lazy as to me this position looks trivially won - I played around with a chess engine support this morning to re-check myself and couldn't find any way to defend it

Trivially won endgames don't require engines. ;-) 

As I said before, this endgame may very well be won but after going through your comments I felt that this variation was the least convincing.  More incomplete than incorrect.  I look forward to seeing the rest of your analysis.

Congratulations on an entertaining and magnificently played game.

Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-01-07 20:52
perhaps you and rowlando can share AN here, starting with you main line?

turbo may also contribute, he had build quite a tree.
Parent - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-05-12 22:45
I think you're right. It is a very difficult end-game to convert, more than I had thought before. I'll need to take some time off when I can next and solve this Rg5->Qf6 without a reasonable doubt ;)
Maybe d6 break after Qf6 instead of the annotation (thought that reaches a blind-bishop scenario to handle) or maybe I can reach some forcing lines within the current annotation. Dunno yet.
- - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-05-12 21:57
Quick update: I've spent some time going over this game, that I know oh so well, with R4 beta tonight.
I'm just awestruck by how much better R4beta is compared with R3 as an analysis buddy - and it's only beta-1!

Many of the ideas that took me hours to validate, despite R3 objecting them - R4 sees on the spot or after a short while.
Positions I thought were at least equal for White or where I was sure I'm already superior despite being a pawn down: R3 disagreed, R4 agrees.

Most exciting is the open debate on whether the key alternative of Black had on move 31 could have drawn.
I mean had Black played 31. ..Rg5+ instead of Bf7. I've spent a lot of time on this both during the game and later. But with R4 I now see so much faster that indeed Black is in terrible shape after 31. ..Rg5+ while R3 even with *hours* fails to spot the trouble the position means for Black and is sure it's drawn.

Most remarkable is the end-game reached after the Bf7 line played in the game.
While R3 (and all other engines I'm aware of) evaluate it as very drawish (while I was certain I'm winning) - R4beta1 scores that position at +1.8 almost off the bat, and suggests some of the key moves I worked for many hours to find as no engine could spot them - finding the right squares for the rooks etc.

Overall - I'm just at awe at hour R4beta1 analyzes that end-game. This is a huge and remarkable leap forward.

But not all is lost :) there are still parts of that complicated end-game R4 misses - key maneuvers that elude her still.
So there's still some room left for creative centaurs and advanced chess :)
Parent - By Mark (****) Date 2010-05-12 23:00
This sounds like really good news!  I'm starting to get pretty anxious...
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2010-05-12 23:29
I mean had Black played 31. ..Rg5+ instead of Bf7. I've spent a lot of time on this both during the game and later. But with R4 I now see so much faster that indeed Black is in terrible shape after 31. ..Rg5+(HEM)

maybe that is why we played Bf7.
Parent - - By CSullivan (**) Date 2010-05-13 15:17
In the main line given by HEM after 31...Rg5 32.Kh1 Qf6, etc., 43.Kh2! is the most convincing move here (although my analysis indicates that 43.h4?! also -- just barely -- wins):
43.Kh2 Be8 (I don't think that Black has anything better; if 43...Rg5 then a possible continuation is 44.Rc7+ Kh8 45.d7 Bxd7 46.Rxd7 h5 47.Rf7 h4 48.Rxf6 Kh7 49.Rf8 Kg7 50.Rb8 Kf6 51.Rxb6 etc.) 44.Rc7
4b3/2R3rk/1p1PBp1p/p4P2/8/7P/7K/8 b - - 0 44

Then, perhaps, Bb5 45.Rxg7+ Kxg7 46.d7 Bxd7 47.Bxd7 Kf8 48.Kg3 Ke7 49.Be6 Kf8 50.Bc4 a4 51.Kh4 Kg7 52.Kh5 Kh7 53.Bb5 g3 54.Bc4 b5 55.Bb3 Kg7 56.h4 b4 57.Ba2 Kh7 58.Kg4 and the White king decides.
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-05-13 16:20
Thank you :)
Parent - By Dark Horse (***) Date 2010-05-13 21:03
Shahar, I see you did not mention 3...Nc6 as a third move alternative for Black, perhaps you feel this is not a good continuation ?
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / HEM vs. Warriors: post mortem analysis - attached

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