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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / How much since Vas' last post?
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- - By Bothkill (*) Date 2009-10-05 11:26
Is Vas ok?

According to my calculations, Vas last posted 50 days ago.

P.S.
Is there any such rule as "50 days rule" in chess software development?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 11:36
He reviews his time management sometimes, I guess he decided he wants to focus on Rybka 4.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-06 02:38
In particular, perhaps focusing on time management issues with Rybka 4. :-D
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-05 13:17

> According to my calculations, Vas last posted 50 days ago.


Psst, don't disturb, he's working at R4...
Parent - - By Capa (***) Date 2009-10-05 13:38
But what if a 100 days pass without a post and still no Rybka 4?  ;)
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-05 13:56
By reading the clues from Lukas' mails. R4 is going to be good. So, maybe the longer he hides himself, the better R4 becomes.

Hopefully it understands Blind Bishops :)
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2009-10-05 17:45

> Hopefully it understands Blind Bishops :-)


Vas said it already understands it. Blind bishop knowledge has been added long time ago.

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-06 07:05

> Vas said it already understands it. Blind bishop knowledge has been added long time ago.


You can trust Vas on the elo increase, but not on the blind bishop :). Rybka 1 understood the blind bishop and he removed the knowledge in Rybka2
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-06 07:13

> Blind bishop knowledge has been added long time ago.


How long time ago?
Implemented in which Rybka-version?
Do we speak about R1.x or newer versions?

Quap
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2009-10-06 07:28

> How long time ago?
> Implemented in which Rybka-version?
> Do we speak about R1.x or newer versions?


Newer versions of course. I meant some time after Rybka 3 release.

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-06 12:44

> I meant some time after Rybka 3 release.


Uh, such a version never has found the way to me, a rather normal Rybka3-User. Should it?
Or should I have looked better?

Quap
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-06 12:48

> Uh, such a version never has found the way to me,


:)
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-05 14:42

> But what if a 100 days pass without a post and still no Rybka 4?


Perhaps we'll hello R4 and R5 at one day!
And R3+ naturally! ;-)
Vas is going to make the world happy.
Quap
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 14:50
I've thrown out a number of wild speculations mostly for my own amusement, but the most logical one is that Vas has some kind of deal with key distributor and promoter Chessbase.  Doesn't it make business sense for Chessbase to coordinate the release the less-powerful engines first, and then end the year with the release of Rybka 4?  It seems like the best way to maximize revenues.  If Rybka came out first who would want to buy the weaker engines?  A few fanatics.  You know who you are!

So who else has a new version coming out shortly?  When that answer is "nobody" then you can expect Rybka any time.  Fritz is out, Shredder is out...who's next?  Hiarcs?
Parent - - By SpiderG (***) Date 2009-10-05 15:25
I'm waiting for Thinker!
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-05 17:32
In the meantime, have a look to Stockfish 1.5; it´s amazing! :-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 17:40
Any sense of how much better it is than 1.4?
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-05 19:46
Not yet! Stockfish is great! I never used free engines but Stockfish is an exception with great potential.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 20:32
With its strength Stockfish could be commercial, it'd sell more than Sjeng, Hiarcs and [penultimate] Shredder.
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2009-10-05 22:35

> Not yet! Stockfish is great! I never used free engines but Stockfish is an exception with great potential.


Can you give more details? What you like exactly of Stockfish?

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-06 12:54

>What you like exactly of Stockfish?


It has some clue in endgames! :-) And it don´t need EGTB or BB to do it!
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-06 14:18

> It has some clue in endgames! :-) And it don´t need EGTB or BB to do it!


:)
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-06 04:55

> I never used free engines


Why?
Also Toga is great since some years.
And surely Fruit and Glaurung were interesting Engines too.
And they aren't only free, they are OpenSource! That's great.
And, you are right, that Stockfish is very, very strong and is OpenSource, that is the greatest°

Quap
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-06 10:13

> Glaurung


Stockfish is Glaurung with a different name.
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-06 12:41

> Stockfish is Glaurung with a different name.


I doubt.
Shouldn't we say, Stockfish is an engine, which sources are evolved from Glaurung-Sources?
And if the today developers call her child Stockfish we should call that engine 'Stockfish' too? I think so.
Other developers could take Glaurung-Source too an try to produce another fish. Calling all of them Glaurung would cause trouble, I think.
OK, today it's more interesting to deal with Stockfish-Sources...

Quap
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-10-06 00:20
The first result I saw from Stockfish 1.5 indicates +27 Elo, but the tester points to the fact that version 1.4 did gain almost 30 points during the testing history, after the initial result.

http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30003

(I think these are blitz tests but I don't know the hardware.)

At CCRL 40/40 and 4 CPU, Stockfish 1.4 is 5th, only 11 points behind Zappa Mexico II. At the single cpu blitz list, Stockfish 1.4 is 8 points behind Fritz 11 and 11 points behind Thinker 5.4c. These rating lists do not contain F12/S12 yet, but anyway Stockfish (and Thinker) will maintain a rank among commercial top engines.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2009-10-06 13:46
I ran a hundred games at 40/1'+60/1' between stockfish 1.5 and 1.4, and the new version won by +33-16=51 for a 60 Elo superiority. Of course it's a small sample and such self-play tends to exaggerate rating differences, so I would not say that this is out of line with the +27 Elo rating increase you cite.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-06 15:51

>won by +33-16=51


It´s amazing! In the first 61 games you have +3 (score 52.5%) for Stockfish 1.5 and in the next 39 games +14 (score 68%)! Very different results!
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2009-10-06 16:27
No, they were separate matches. The +3 result finished at +5 after 77 games at 1' sudden death, while the 100 games (+17) were at 40/1'+60/1', which is of course a more relevant time limit as endgames don't end in a flurry of instant moves. So if we give double weight to the slower games I guess it's fair to say that the results indicate a gain of about 50 Elo on a direct play basis.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-10-06 17:36
These are very promising results, and bad news for all the commercials which are trailing Rybka, as they are under increased pressure from all directions. It gets brutally tough for them.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2009-10-06 19:33
On the other hand, since Stockfish is open source, it's easy for the commercial programmers to get good ideas to use from Stockfish. So the overall standard of play of all the engines should rise.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-10-07 10:23
I wonder if you have losses on time in your games.
I believe that stockfish has a bug that cause it to lose on time in a small part of the games and without this bug it can be stronger.

Uri
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2009-10-07 14:33
I noticed that in my main match after 100 games version 1.5 lost on time in game 101 (in a better but drawn endgame), and then lost every game after that on time right after book. So I simply discarded all games after game 100, assuming that the autotester had somehow malfunctioned. This has happened occasionally with other engines in the past; maybe they all had some bug where they could lose on time under rare circumstances, and once this happened they would always lose on time. Anyway I believe that my reported results are valid (free of time forfeits), although I'm not certain.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-06 19:13
Is Vas going release Rybka 232a and Rybka 3 for free if Stockfish becomes no 1 free engine? :-D I am asking this because Vas made it a habit to see Rybka as a no 1 engine both commercially and free. :-D
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-07 14:50

> Is Vas going release Rybka 232a and Rybka 3 for free if Stockfish becomes no 1 free engine?


I would not give such an advice.
Let better other money earning developers be number 2 and 3 in the world.

A Situation "pay-Rybka is top, then there come several free Rybka-engines, and then there come several weaker to-pay-for-engines" will not be nice, I think.
But perhaps Vas wants to sell R3 for a smaller prix, when R4 is on the market?
In concurrency to other developers? Or in concurrency to R4? Who knows...

Quap
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2009-10-05 23:46
I'm running a 1' match of stockfish 1.5 vs. 1.4, but after 61 games it's only leading by 3 games, so no evidence yet of a huge improvement. But I need more games of course.
Parent - By Asylum (**) Date 2009-10-06 08:29

>In the meantime, have a look to Stockfish 1.5; it´s amazing!


[Event "Blitz 5m"]

[Date "2009.10.06"]

[White "Rybka 3 32-bit"]
[Black "Stockfish 1.5 JA"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B88"]

Rybka3.ctg
Fritz12.ctg
1. e4 {B 0} c5 {B 0} 2.
Nf3 {B 0} d6 {B 0} 3. d4 {B 0} cxd4 {B 0} 4. Nxd4 {B 0} Nf6 {B 0} 5. Nc3 {B 0}
Nc6 {B 0} 6. Bc4 {B 0} e6 {B 0} 7. O-O {B 0} Be7 {B 0} 8. Bb3 {B 0} O-O {B 0}
9. Be3 {B 0} a6 {B 0} 10. f4 {B 0} Nxd4 {B 0 Both last book move} 11. Bxd4 {0.
33/13 6} Qc7 {0.04/15 8} 12. Qd3 {0.30/13 22 (a4)} b5 {0.00/16 10 (Bd7)} 13. f5
{0.30/11 2 (a3)} e5 {-0.08/16 7} 14. Nd5 {0.27/13 5 (Bf2)} Nxd5 {-0.40/17 8}
15. Bxd5 {0.27/12 0} Bb7 {-0.36/17 9} 16. Bxb7 {0.13/14 11} Qxb7 {-0.44/17 6}
17. Bf2 {0.16/14 4} Rfd8 {-0.40/16 11 (b4)} 18. Rfd1 {0.19/12 9 (Rad1)} Rd7 {
-0.32/16 12 (Rdc8)} 19. Qe2 {0.33/12 4 (b3)} b4 {-0.44/16 8 (Rc8)} 20. Rac1 {
0.10/11 5} Qb5 {-0.52/15 10} 21. Kf1 {0.15/12 5} Rc7 {-0.64/15 7} 22. Be1 {0.
16/12 7 (f6)} Qa4 {-0.44/16 5 (g6)} 23. b3 {0.14/12 3} Qa5 {-0.44/16 7} 24. c4
{0.15/12 5 (a4)} bxc3 {0.00/17 6} 25. Rd5 {0.12/13 3 (Rd3)} Qb4 {-0.08/17 5}
26. Rd3 {0.12/11 0} Rac8 {0.00/17 7} 27. Rcxc3 {0.13/13 2} Rxc3 {0.00/16 1} 28.
Bxc3 {0.13/12 0} Qa3 {0.00/17 7 (Qb6)} 29. Be1 {0.14/12 5} Qc1 {0.00/17 7 (Rc1)
} 30. Rd1 {0.19/12 4} Qc6 {0.04/16 5 (Qa3)} 31. Qd3 {0.18/11 3} g6 {0.00/14 5
(h6)} 32. a4 {0.18/11 4 (f6)} gxf5 {-0.04/15 11 (Kg7)} 33. exf5 {0.16/11 3} Kg7
{0.00/14 6} 34. Bb4 {0.16/11 10 (f6+)} f6 {-0.24/15 6} 35. Ba3 {0.17/11 5
(Qg3+)} a5 {-0.28/14 4} 36. Rd2 {0.17/12 6 (Qg3+)} Qb7 {-0.32/14 3 (Kf7)} 37.
Qd5 {0.08/11 4 (Rd1)} Qa6+ {-0.32/15 3} 38. Qb5 {0.07/13 2} Qa7 {-0.32/16 3}
39. Qe2 {0.03/12 2 (Qd3)} Rc3 {-0.56/15 2} 40. Rd3 {0.00/12 2} Rxd3 {-0.48/15 4
} 41. Qxd3 {0.00/14 2} Qd7 {-0.48/17 5 (Qb7)} 42. Qg3+ {0.00/14 3 (Bc5)} Kf8 {
-0.44/16 2 (Kh8)} 43. Qh3 {0.00/14 2} Qb7 {-0.52/16 3} 44. Bc1 {0.00/14 2} Bd8
{-0.56/15 3 (Qd5)} 45. Bh6+ {-0.03/11 2 (Qh6+)} Ke7 {-0.88/15 3} 46. Qd3 {-0.
10/11 3 (Ke2)} d5 {-1.09/15 4} 47. Bd2 {-0.18/11 3 (Qg3)} Kd6 {-1.13/14 4} 48.
h3 {-0.20/11 3 (Bh6)} h5 {-1.29/14 2} 49. Qg3 {-0.34/11 4} Qc8 {-1.17/15 2} 50.
Qg6 {-0.28/11 7 (Qd3)} Qc2 {-1.57/15 3} 51. Bxa5 {-0.44/11 1} Qd3+ {-1.81/13 2
(Bxa5)} 52. Kg1 {-0.54/13 10} Qd4+ {-1.25/14 2 (Bxa5)} 53. Kh1 {-0.25/13 1}
Bxa5 {-1.49/15 2} 54. Qxf6+ {-0.25/11 0} Kc7 {-1.25/15 2} 55. Qe7+ {-0.22/12 1}
Kc8 {-1.45/15 4 (Kc6)} 56. f6 {-0.08/13 2 (Qe8+)} Bb6 {-1.01/14 2 (e4)} 57.
Qe6+ {0.00/15 2} Kb7 {-1.13/15 4} 58. Qd7+ {0.00/15 2} Bc7 {-0.92/15 2} 59.
Qb5+ {0.00/15 1 (f7)} Ka7 {-1.21/15 2} 60. Qc6 {0.00/15 16} Qb6 {-1.73/15 1}
61. Qxb6+ {-0.80/11 3} Kxb6 {-1.17/15 2 (Bxb6)} 62. Kg1 {-1.54/13 13 (g4)} h4 {
-2.58/15 3 (Kc6)} 63. Kf2 {-1.20/11 1} e4 {-3.91/15 1 (Kc6)} 64. f7 {-1.90/11
1 (Ke3)} Bd6 {-7.95/15 1} 65. Ke3 {-3.58/14 10} Bc5+ {-9.93/15 1 (Kc6)} 66. Kf4
{-3.58/14 1} Ka5 {-14.50/15 2 (Kc6)} 67. g4 {-5.34/9 9} hxg3 {-15.95/15 3} 68.
Kxg3 {-3.58/10 0} d4 {-19.71/14 3} 69. f8=Q {-11.71/9 7 (b4+)} Bxf8 {-25.69/12
0} 70. Kf2 {-13.27/9 6} d3 {-89.09/15 2} 71. Ke3 {-13.31/8 5} Bh6+ {-93.31/15 1
} 72. Kf2 {-13.89/8 5 (Kxe4)} e3+ {-93.26/13 1} 73. Kf1 {-17.42/9 4 (Kf3)} Bf8
{-#10/12 0 (Bg5)} 74. Kg2 {-#14/8 3} e2 {-#9/10 0 (d2)} 75. Kf3 {-#13/7 1 (Kf2)
} e1=Q {-#7/8 0} 76. b4+ {-#9/5 0 (Kg4)} Kxb4 {-#6/8 0 (Bxb4)} 77. Kg4 {-#7/3
0 (Kf4)} d2 {-#5/6 0} 78. Kf5 {-#6/3 0} d1=Q {-#4/6 0} 79. Kf6 {-#5/3 0 (Kg6)}
Qh5 {-#2/6 0 (Qf3+)} 80. h4 {-#2/3 0} Qee5# {-#1/6 0} 0-1
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2009-10-05 15:50
I wonder if this is a 'seasonal' product i.e. more sales towards xmas via retail shops through chessbase distributes, or, as seems more likely, it's the die-hard chess player community who will buy it, whenever it's released.

My bet is that like many software projects, Vas will release it "when it's ready" - with him having set an internal criterion to when he would deem it ready.
He may have outside pressure (and not only from members of this forum who are dying/drooling to get it already) but also form Chessbase / chessok - but he knows that subsequent releases would be another 18 months in the making, so he rather make sure he hit his intened result first ignoring outside pressure. I further assume, like everyone else here, that he has gone MIA from the forum as he's increased his time management and is dedicated to things that require his full attention and focus. It's fun being "in the zone" when one writes code :)
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-05 16:09

>I wonder if this is a 'seasonal' product i.e. ...


I think Vas has shown in the past he is a libertine. He released R3 in august. I´m rather sure august is the worst month to release software (okay, july isn´t smart too). If it becomes december this time, it´s only an accident! :-)
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 16:15
Vas once wrote here that the number of "early adapters" was not as large as people here assumed. If this is really the case, it may not matter that much when the product is released, either from a calender standpoint, or from a frequency standpoint. In the former case he risks losing potential sales from people that would buy a new Rybka as a present, and in the latter case he risks losing potential income from the die-hards who would buy every version.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-05 17:49

> but the most logical one is that Vas has some kind of deal with key distributor and promoter Chessbase.


Nelson, I am starting to think that R4 will be released in December. Lukas and Felix are the people here who are likely to know the date. Felix, preparing the logo. Lukas throwing the clues that he is satisfied. I think you are right about the deal between Vas and Chessbase.
Parent - - By tomgdrums (****) Date 2009-10-05 19:46

> If Rybka came out first who would want to buy the weaker engines?  A few fanatics.  You know who you are!


I would always buy the newest Shredder since I love playing against it, I like analyzing with it and Rybka and for my money Shredder's GUI is the best hands down.  So I will always purchase a new Shredder and a new Rybka.  (and probably Hiarcs).  Other then that I don't really care about any of the other engines or GUI's.

Part of the reason for my loyalty to these three products aside from performance is that all three creators of these programs have shown themselves to be incredibly supportive of their products and VERY easy to work with.  Customer service scores well with me!  :)    Chessbase not so much!!
Parent - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-10-05 20:07
very well said. the nice thing about it is that since chessbase has their hands on all of them, you can still get the new fritz 12 GUI without having to buy fritz itself...i dont have a problem w/ fritz per se, but id rather own hiarcs, shredder, & rybka...and that's plenty of money to spend on computer chess over a 1 or 2 month period.
Parent - By Asylum (**) Date 2009-10-06 06:25 Edited 2009-10-06 06:28

>Chessbase not so much!!


There is a large vote in the "Glarean Magazine"
Top of the Interface's: ChessBase/Fritz 33%  - Shredder 19%   - Aquarium 9%

http://glareanverlag.wordpress.com/2009/10/04/grosse-schachumfrage_computerschach_schachprogramme/
Parent - - By garyf919 (**) Date 2009-10-05 21:38
I agree with you 100%!!! Vas is probably holding back due to Chessbase. There is really no other explanation for his failure to release R3+ and to hold back R4 till now. I can only hope we have R4 for the Holidays! I'm thinking of Halloween ofcourse :)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 21:53
Flaw: Rybka 3+ presents no strength improvement so it wouldn't hurt sales, so there's no reason for Vas to delay it, even, releasing it ASAP would fix bugs ASAP and would allow Vas to focus on strength improvements knowing that bugs wouldn't get in the way.

But Vas hasn't released R3+ not even to his beta testers, so I highly suspect that R4 wouldn't be ready by now regardless of Chessbase, and that Vas wouldn't be releasing freeware versions of old Rybkas if he had some agreement (allegedly those have hurt sales from others.)
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-06 02:45
There might not be a Rybka 3+.  Having a Rybka 3+ would take away from Rybka 4 sales, I think.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-06 03:10
How so? the converse argument is that the MP tablebase bug workaround makes a Rybka 3+ useless, but then it wouldn't hurt Rybka sales. I don't know from where people are getting these ideas, last word from Vas was that a R3+ was in the way.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-08 02:47
I think that people would feel more "okay" if they had Rybka 3+ and feel less motivation to get Rybka 4.
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-08 05:08
If there is no R3+ I will not buy R4!
I´m very motivated in this issue! :-)
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / How much since Vas' last post?
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