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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Jeroen book update
- - By jejega (**) Date 2009-10-04 10:52
Is there a way to update the book every time it's changed? Can we update it by using Aquarium?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 11:03
there are no updates for the book, but you can edit the book manually of course. I'm not sure if I understand your question.
Parent - - By jejega (**) Date 2009-10-04 11:08
The book is I think changing constantly . A few months back we heard of a update.Is there a feature on Aquarium that can enable us to update it?
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 11:13
Jeroen stopped working on the book after publishing the Aquarium versions. I don't know if he's back in business, but there is no update for the book.
Parent - - By mikal (**) Date 2009-10-04 14:44

>there are no updates for the book, but you can edit the book manually of course.


If you're gonna edit it manually and do all the work in the end why waste money buying it, better is to just create your own. The lack of updates is also the lack of dedication the author puts on the book, some public book authors update more frequently and puts more quality in making it and are more dedicated in book making.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 14:54
"lack of dedication the author puts on the book"

After 8 months work Jeroen needed a break. it was clear from the beginning that it's not updated.

You can't compare Jeroen's book with those public available books. Jeroen's book is a good opening reference and intended for much more than just computer chess.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 15:06
I would suggest Jeroen continues to need a break.  :)
Parent - - By stephanie (**) Date 2009-10-05 21:49
Why and how can a book that is refuted by other books in computer chess can be still be good as an opening reference? Can you please give examples of opening lines in rybka 3 book that is not good for computer chess but good for human games (please up to move 12 at least)?

And why aren't top public computer chess books not considered as good opening reference? And how do you use rybka 3 book for human training/reference anyway?

Thanks in advance.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 21:59

> And why aren't top public computer chess books not considered as good opening reference?


Because most are focused on a very small fragment of ECO, so the likelihood of finding the opening you want to reference is very low.

Recently someone created a 15KB book or something that refuted the top book of the time, that's how few they cover in reality.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 22:03
Someone was Eros. Then the author of the very focused book he refuted made some changes, retested, and showed that Eros' 15 kb refutation wasn't universal. Truly shocking!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 23:41
I think the main point was that it took Eros a few hours to make the refuting book, so it would take a few hours to refute any focused book, while refuting Jeroen's book took weeks.
Parent - - By mikal (**) Date 2009-10-06 07:30

>while refuting Jeroen's book took weeks.


Not true, It was only 20 elo stronger on the latest tested books and did not even beat some of the untested earlier public books like CompMaster2 etc., http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=6377#pid94361

The guys who used it on engine room first did not even achieved a remarkable result and I don't even have to tune my private book that much in order to beat it because it was already beating it without tuning :-)
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-10-06 17:29
You seem to think the chess world consists only of the Playchess engine room, with it's silly focusation on an extremely small repertoire. Nobody has claimed that Jeroen Noomen's books are the perfect books for Rybka versus Rybka in (95%) Sicilian + Scotch. That is such a small segment that it's not worthwhile to create a commercial product for. So stay happy with the amateur's freeware stuff for that purpose.

Adult chess players have other demands. :grin:

P.S. Nobody outside of the Playchess engine room gives a shit which rank you achieve there. So make sure that you don't waste your time. Living time is limited.
Parent - By mikal (**) Date 2009-11-09 21:16

>P.S. Nobody outside of the Playchess engine room gives a shit which rank you achieve there. So make sure that you don't waste your time. Living time is limited.


Just because you don't like it does not mean no one cares. For me it is useful for corr chess and private book tuning.

The rybka 3 book that most of you rybka fans are praising every now and then (even though it has been refuted long ago) are made with some parts of engine room theory. In fact jeroen mentions it in his credits: http://rybkachess.com/index.php?auswahl=Rybka+3+book
"The Playchess engine room, what you guys do is amazing and without you this opening book would never exist!"

And even rybka teams new book maker jiri is also known to be a playchess engine room commoner. They even chose it to search opponents for the Rybka cluster there because most of good freestylers are known to be engine room commoners..
Parent - - By mikal (**) Date 2009-10-06 07:23

>Because most are focused on a very small fragment of ECO, so the likelihood of finding the opening you want to reference is very low.


That depends on what you really want. I don't really care if I got a small repertoire, as long as I am winning I don't really care. And if your opponent won't cooperate you won't get to almost 70-85%% of the ECO openings. If you want to master all ECO openings where you will mostly not use all of them knock yourself out. It is like studying biology for your calculus test.
Parent - - By Sciolto (***) Date 2009-11-07 23:07
What do you want ? You say YOU like to win but as far as I can tell you only use external power. Hardware, the strongest engine you can find, a free book to go with it, preferably small, as long as YOU win. Go on playchess to kick some ass ? That is a pretty pathetic picture. I feel sorry for you. Tell me, how long did your 'triumph' last ?
Parent - By mikal (**) Date 2009-11-09 20:57
I assume by your statements that you are not familiar with engine room or how computer chess theory evolves.

>Hardware, the strongest engine you can find, a free book to go with it, preferably small, as long as YOU win.


This is probably one of the most persistent computer chess myth alive. Most of engine room players already uses the strongest engine and the fastest hardware available today. And even you got the fastest hardware it won't be enough, you still got to have something special in your book, it is a combination of many things by the way. And yes you may win a lot at first using a free book, but expect it will be short lived because everybody has it everybody can easily tune against it.

>Go on playchess to kick some ass ? That is a pretty pathetic picture. I feel sorry for you. Tell me, how long did your 'triumph' last ?


Well for me playing at engine room has been useful for corr chess and for my private book tuning and probably made me understand some opening or even little chess knowledge that I can use in human play.

If you don't understand it, like it, or see the point of it, that is ok. Since I know we are minority, I don't really expect all chess players to like it. Not everyone needs to climb the top of Mount Everest, not everyone needs to fully understand quantum mechanics in order to live properly. Same logic goes for us engine room players, we're just a minority of chess players that can't stand blunders and seeks for chess perfection. Somebody just have to do it.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 22:34
how do you use rybka 3 book for human training/reference anyway?

When I look for lines against e.g. the kings gambit, I simply looked what is in his book. If you want to learn new openings and search for good lines, Jeroen's book saves you a lot of time.
Parent - - By stephanie (**) Date 2009-11-12 05:57
Up to what extent should we follow Rybka 3 book? I see some green lines up to move 30s, I don't really think I can memorize or even that high chance of playing the entire line, example:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Bb7 10. d4 Re8 11. Nbd2 Bf8 12. a4 h6 13. Bc2 exd4 14. cxd4 Nb4 15.
Bb1 c5 16. d5 Nd7 17. Ra3 c4 18. Ree3 Qc7 19. Nd4 Ne5 20. N2f3 Nbd3 21. axb5
axb5 22. Nxb5 Qb6 23. Bxd3 Nxd3 24. Rxa8 Rxa8 25. Na3 Qc5 26. Ne1 Nxc1 27. Qxc1
f5 28. exf5 Bxd5 29. Rc3 Bf7 30. Nxc4 Qxf5 31. Nf3 *

Plus after 31.Nf3 all black response are red, why is that? What do I do if I see a deadend line like this? And where do Jeroen or Rybka 3 book makers find the games to import into book? There are games imported that have 2900 elo and most of them I can't find in my megabase 2009.

Thanks in advance.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-11-12 17:56
Sure, some lines are a bit too deep, but it gives you an idea how to play those lines. In general it's better to understand what you play, then you can find the good moves over the board. So completely memorizing a 31 moves line especially in the spanish opening isn't really useful indeed.

About the "dead ends": those are usually lines where Jeroen couldn't decide between moves and wants the player or engine to make a choice. It's where you can analyse those lines further (with or without Rybka :) ).

Re 2900 Elo games: there are some computer games in the tree, it's a mixture of human and computer games.
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-10-06 00:40
A reference like that, in the sense of a selected and edited data collection, can only point to the past up to a certain deadline before release. So, it maintains it's quality with the exception that some new developements from the time after that deadline are missing. To exaggerate, from the complete history of chess opening theory (and -practice), a good opening reference of 2008 is based on 498 to 499 years from 500.

(Of course, chess Grandmasters and Playchess machine room enthusiasts urgently need everything up to today, nothing less... :grin: )

I think any book which is based on a good quality, comprehensive games database can serve as a (fairly) good opening reference. But a good commercial book will usually also include "unplayed" theory, like variations from magazines, from master commentary or from own analyses, etc.

As for how to use a computer opening book for training, that will not be difficult to figure it out if you take a look at the book and opening related functions of your chess program(s).
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-10-04 18:42 Edited 2009-10-04 18:44
As far as I can recall, there never were "in between" updates of the top commercial's opening books. Only with the release of new engine versions, new versions of the books were included. That's how it was being done for Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Chessmaster...

It's a novelty that such an opening book is a separate product, like the R3 books. But basically you are expecting a new service if it is about computer chess opening books. I am of course aware that such updates may be entirely normal with other comparable types of data. But in computer chess, updates for engines and interfaces are common but definately not for the opening books.

I don't think this is due to a lack of dedication (?!), but after e.g. a book for engine version 17 is finished, I am almost sure that from that moment on, the dedication is directed at a book for engine version 18.

(An execption may be if severe book blunders would be found after release; I think that was the case with one of the Hiarcs books but I forgot if there was an update even in that case. At least I don't recall that there was a CTG book update.)
Parent - - By Rowlando (***) Date 2009-11-08 07:47

> some public book authors update more frequently and puts more quality in making it and are more dedicated in book making.


If quality and dedication means constantly playing games against rival books in order to stay 1/2 ply ahead of the competition in the incestuous Najdorf arms race and releasing thrice weekly versions that would be indistinguishable from one another were it not for the addition of a slightly above average move 33 in the Poisoned Pawn and a couple of stunningly esoteric novelties in lines that have never been played outside of the Playchess engine room then yes, there are some public book authors who are dedicated to making quality books.
Parent - By Highendman (****) Date 2009-11-08 07:58
:)
Parent - By 1337chess (**) Date 2009-11-08 21:21
I made this book, it plays 1.b3, 1.e4-e5 and I think no najdorf. War I: http://uploading.com/files/ec81d571/War%2BI%2B%2B%25281337chess.blogspot.com%2529.rar/

If I remember correct it once ranked number 3 on pioneer chess book tourney against other public books and only few elos from the top. It will still probably ranked the same if other book makers did not tune on these lines. So I think it is an achievement :-)

Regards,
Parent - - By mikal (**) Date 2009-11-09 21:05

>If quality and dedication means constantly playing games against rival books in order to stay 1/2 ply ahead of the competition in the incestuous Najdorf arms race and releasing thrice weekly versions that would be indistinguishable from one another were it not for the addition of a slightly above average move 33 in the Poisoned Pawn and a couple of stunningly esoteric novelties in lines that have never been played outside of the Playchess engine room then yes, there are some public book authors who are dedicated to making quality books.


Not all the times, you still should be ready at anything the unknown throws at you. There are still players that plays unorthodox and almost any line has once become popular in engine room, believe it or not even strange lines like 1.h3 once became popular and still some persist to play them once in a while up to now. And I think it is computer chess theory is even much more wider than humans or GMs.
Parent - By Rowlando (***) Date 2009-11-09 23:50

> And I think it is computer chess theory is even much more wider than humans or GMs.


Surely you can't be serious?
Parent - - By stephanie (**) Date 2009-11-12 06:06
Then what opening is non Najdorf that is good against humans and also computer chess?
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-11-12 13:52
:lol: 1.d4
Parent - By ChessMate (***) Date 2009-11-12 15:36
Yes that's true and it come as a suprise to me ( just a week back) when i found that actually d4 is above e4 in success rate.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Jeroen book update

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