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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / R3+ release or a direct R4 now?
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Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-10-03 09:55
he was quite loquacious when i first came on the board, which wasnt anywhere close to the early days -- the silence has gone on for awhile now, but im still assuming he'll pop back up whenever r4 hits. i said a couple months ago we'd get it in october & im sticking to my guns.

it is strange though, someone said he did this for r3 as well. is it some twisted strategy? does he get so overwhlemed in the final details he literally doesn't have time to visit the msg board? before he went silent, he'd post daily. then suddenly, absolutely nothing.  mysterious.
Parent - By Steffelino (**) Date 2009-10-03 10:06
I join Vas projekt from the "early days" and he has always replayed for mails and overall he has made a very polite and nice impression!
I am sure he will tell us  what he has up to his mind very soon!
Please Vas tell us that your are "still alive" at least.
I think we all wish Vas all the best with his work.
We have to be patient!
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2009-10-03 10:46
Vas has a life. It is a notion that stands for a lot of different activities, which all have one thing in common: they are NOT spending time in Rybka forum. Let the man work and live. He'll come back with a bang. He always does.
Parent - - By davidwhite (***) Date 2009-10-03 10:11
I completely share Nelson's views on this matter. It's at least quite plausible that Vas has gone silent in recent months  precisely because he'll not be releasing R3+ at all and hence will have no
need for our feedback in vetting it for bugs.This is not to suggest that he skipped R3+ altogether but rather that he found some other method of putting it through its paces which was satisfactory
to him.If by now Vas hasn't debugged Rybka 3,I'm afraid Rybka 4 isn't even on his radar screen.Let's hope that he has and that it is.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 14:13
David!  We haven't heard from you much lately, either!

My guess, though, is that when Vas comes back, there will be a new Rybka version on the horizon, but like with Rybka 3, it will be in a way that is quite unexpected by most of us here, and perhaps even Lukas and Larry won't be aware of it, either. :-)
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 14:14
Heck, maybe even Vas won't be aware of it!
Parent - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2009-10-03 16:27
Not yet two months, I think Vas took two months 'off' to prepare for the the Dutch Open that will be held in the weekend of the 16th October. No coincidence, this is all part of the masterplan :) So don't expect anything before that, but surely some new cluster version will play there. I would just try out something that looked very much like Rybka 4, also for promotional purposes. That is, if Rybka IV is remotely ready by now. That is the only uncertain factor :)

All participants in the ODCCC in Leiden now know that they can expect the unexpected. Maybe The Baron can pull off a draw and the fight with Sjeng will be interesting but I think we can expect a show of force. Vas will worry about release schedules later I'm sure.

Parent - - By wem511 (**) Date 2009-10-03 17:00
Thats my guess. we drag him down :D
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 18:28
"To trace something unknown back to something known is alleviating, soothing, gratifying and gives moreover a feeling of power.  Danger, disquiet, anxiety attend the unknown - the first instinct is to eliminate these distressing states.  First principle: any explanation is better than none...  The cause-creating drive is thus conditioned and excited by the feeling of fear..."
- Nietzsche
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 01:35
"Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patton who said..."
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 01:48
First Dagh disappeared. Then Larry. Then Jeroen. Then Nick. Now Vas is gone too. I suspect foul play!
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 01:49
And Alan became Banned for Life after being Deleted!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 02:27

>>I suspect foul play!
> And Alan became Banned for Life after being Deleted!

Alan cheats himself!
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-04 03:33
Goethe and Schiller are gone and I feel very bad too.
German translation: Goethe und Schiller sind tot und ich fühl mich auch schon ganz schlecht.

I like this joke, I read more than 20 years ago on German university toilet! :-)
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 04:34
Sounds like German universities have much higher quality toilet humor than American universities...
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-10-06 09:16
Parent - By apollox (***) Date 2009-10-08 07:13
Programmers are poor businessmen from my experience. I worked for one so I know.

My programmer boss seemed to get suckered into constantly buying useless junk for me and my colleague all the time. Nicest guy you could work for though. We told him that we don't really need a lot of it. We were just happy with MSDN subscriptions to help us get along and keep up to date with VB stuff. Ultimately, the business failed in 2001 (a year after I left), because he couldn't create a solid customer base. We really had only one customer, a fairly large one, but it wasn't enough to keep it going.
Parent - - By FWCC (***) Date 2009-10-04 01:37
I say forget R3+ just release R4 NOW!
Parent - By Maitra (**) Date 2009-10-07 15:46
though I seriously doubt whether R4 will be released this year.
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-10-08 07:26

> I say forget R3+ just release R4 NOW!

Should also Microsoft stop fixing Vista-Bugs when Windows7 is out?
And: What would we have said, if Microsoft would have given us the first Vista-Bugfix just after the Windows7-Rollout? :o|

Be nice to R3-Users who haven't decided yet to buy R4 and give them R3+.
And it would have been much better, if that R3+ would have come to us many months earlier.

- - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 01:16 Edited 2009-10-03 01:36
I am now using Deep Ryb3 UCI.Once Ryb4 comes out,would it be best to simply delete Ryb3 and boot up Deep Ryb 4,or add it as an additional engine to my fritz UCI?
I would probably never return to Ryb3 anyway,so why waste memory space?Plus,isn't there going to be an improved book with Ryb4?If so,wouldn't there be a possible "conflict"with Ryb3's book and Ryb's4 book if i were to simply load it as an additional engine?But i'm also thinking that somehow Ryb4 can somehow link into the past games of Ryb3 where there was a learning behavior setup and be able to avoid some positions that caused past weakness or losses.
So what should i do here?Just erase Ryb3 and start fresh or keep Ryb3 and simply load Ryb4 as an additional engine?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 01:58
Depends, if Rybka 4 has a sudden change of playing style you may want to keep around Rybka 3 to check now and then, just like you'd keep other non-Rybka engines around (i.e. different move choice), like some people keep using Rybka Winfinder 2.2 for reference.
Parent - - By apollox (***) Date 2009-10-04 03:17
So you are pretty much saying to treat R4 as a completely separate engine and start new trees instead of adding to any existing analyses by R3. That is probably how most of us will deal with it anyway. I say that because I rarely look at R2+ analysis for anything these days.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 03:36
Do you look at other non Rybka engines at all? My point is that if you do, then looking at Rybka 3's opinion will be a must-do when Rybka 4 is around, if they have very dissimilar playing styles, since she's stronger than anything else.

I think I'm stating the obvious, but I think it's obvious to first check if Rybka 3 is truly obsolete before deleting it, unless you only analyze with Rybka anyway.
Parent - - By apollox (***) Date 2009-10-04 03:44
Yep obvious. Never delete an engine from the list.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 03:58
So we agree, Thin Ice was asking if he should delete R3 with R4 comes out, so I answered.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 04:36
Always shoot first and ask questions later. Go ahead and delete it. You probably won't need it anyway!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 04:41
In that case he should make sure that his recycle bin is empty after deletion.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-10-06 09:18
why would u delete R3 just because u are getting 4? These are two completely different engines basically. Would work lovely in tandem i'm quite sure :)
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-10-03 09:07
rybka 3.exe takes up like what, 6-7 MBs?? just leave it around unless you're OCD about clutter, since it's unlikely you'll use r3 after r4 hits. how many people with r3 use 2.3.2a for anything other than comparing the engines?

rybka 4 will NOT link into the past games of rybka 3. rybka 3 doesnt even link into the past games of rybka 3. the knowledge to avoid positions or learn from positions rybka 3 played badly will be built into the engine by vas.
Parent - - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 12:26
Thanks yanquis1972.I'm confused now,however.You said that Ryb3 dosen't even link into the past games of Ryb3 or learn from playing badly in a past game?So then,what is all those options that I can click on to like....Book Options,Optimize-"Influence of learn value"(determines how the learning weights of the tree are adjusted on basis of individual games)  and "learning strength"(determines how strong the weights are adjusted on the basis of individual games)???
There are other extended book options as well....remove book marks,move adding,weed tree,search games for present postion in other games ect ect.But i'm mostly concerned about what i first mentioned....this "learning value" option.
Are you saying that Ryb 3 cannot go back into its own games and learn from past mistakes?If not,then what are those options about?
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-03 12:30
Book learning is a GUI function. It has nothing to do with Rybka.
Parent - - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 12:36
Thanks Kullberg.I'm just learning myself about these options.But can you be more specific?It is a GUI function as you say,but what is learning from what?No engine is learning anything?Ryb cannot "learn"anything at all from past games?Then clicking on the learning function has no function?
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-03 12:39
The GUI saves the results of games in the opening book. If a move looses too often, it won't be played anymore. Rybka engine doesn't learn.
Parent - - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 12:52 Edited 2009-10-03 13:25
Ok.So are you saying that the GUI "learns" and then blocks the RYB3 engine from playing that same blunder after a while?
I have to get this straight.Atleast "something"is learning that THEN will affect how RYB plays...correct?Yes,no?
If this is true,even partially,then it has alot to do with Ryb and affects its play as an indirect learning "tool" for Ryb,yes,no?
The engine may not have directly learned,but the GUI is teaching Ryb to play better?
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-03 12:58
More or less yes. But while you are in book, Rybka engine doesn't do anything - the GUI plays the book moves.
Parent - - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 13:12 Edited 2009-10-03 13:15
Well seems to me that the Ryb engine does learn....but simply from another source.As to being in book as you mentioned,I would question that as well,because the GUI has advanced options WHILE IN BOOK....."weed tree"(removes moves that were played in very few games),"remove book marks"(takes out all the evaluation symbols that encourage or discourage the program in its choice of lines),"properties"(can be preset for unplayed transpositions)ect ect.All these things will(as I see it) affect and redirect the Ryb engine IN BOOK.
Parent - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-10-03 13:42
it directs any engine. since those features are native to the GUI & not rybka any 'learned' behavior will be transferred to rybka 4 IFF you use the same book + same GUI. but a new, human-tuned rybka 4 book would be stronger than any 'learned' older book.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-10-06 09:20
funny to me is the power of kullberg's cluster is going to be that of an oversized laptop in about 6 yrs :)
- - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-10-03 14:18
Thanks all.My point was that for now atleast,this learning options DOES affect Ryb3's engine play,even if indirectly,including in book.I don't care about who is learning what,but the linked system between GUI's,UCI's and Ryb3 has a total outcome of different play depending upon past games,tree's ect.As to Ryb4,i'm sure there will be similarities,improved,however.
Parent - - By jaboo2 (**) Date 2009-10-03 17:18 Edited 2009-10-03 17:21
No offense but I'm not going to buy Rybka 4. It's useless. I'm sure the difference between Rybka 3 and Rybka 4 is gonna be so small that it's not worth the buy. Unless I buy a much more powerful computer than I have now it's really not worth the buy.

I think I'm going to wait 2 or 3 years more until Rybka 5 or 6 is going to come out and by that time I'm also planning to buy a more powerful computer.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-03 17:39

> No offense but I'm not going to buy Rybka 4. It's useless. I'm sure the difference between Rybka 3 and Rybka 4 is gonna be so small that it's not worth the buy.

Don't underestimate Vas, he is a magician :)
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2009-10-03 19:08
No offence taken. My view is the exact opposite though. From the little concrete information we have seen via Lukas posts, I am like some Apple fans, waiting with the bills in my hand for Jobs announcement that 'it' is ready to be bought.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-04 01:39 Edited 2009-10-04 01:41
Admit it Gustov! You're a stinking Mac user!
Parent - By exigentsky (***) Date 2009-10-04 23:56
LOL, that's a bad thing?
Parent - - By staylor (***) Date 2009-10-04 21:18 Edited 2009-10-04 21:21
I never got a Rybka 3, and I had my computer for about 5 years now. I hope i can soon find a way to buy a new one (atleast a quad. Now it's a single, and latop).

I desperately want to get the best there will be, soon.

What do you think?

Do you recomend I get Rybka 3, or Rybka 4, or doesn't make much difference? (in either case, if with/without having new computer?)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 01:44
Get both, if money isn't a problem. If it is, it depends on how urgent you're on getting the best out there is, on a life or death situation I'd suggest picking Rybka 3, otherwise you're better waiting a few(?) months for Rybka 4.
Parent - - By staylor (***) Date 2009-10-05 21:02
Do you mean that if I am ready to buy it when Rybka 4 is already out, or just about to be, then I would not be fully satisfied with Rybka 4 alone, and would still like Rybka 3? Or even to get, ONLY Rybka 3 (if I had to choose only one of them)?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-05 21:06
Once Rybka 4 comes out you'll not have much use of Rybka 3, I'd only suggest getting Rybka 3 if it's urgent (e.g. you said you were desperate.)
Parent - - By staylor (***) Date 2009-10-05 21:14
When I said "desperate" and "soon", I meant I can wait till soon, when Rybka 4 will be out. And "desperate" refers to confirmation of the fact that I am looking for the strongest program, rather than just what ever else there is available right this minute.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / R3+ release or a direct R4 now?
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