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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Vas lack confidence!!
- - By fly0die Date 2009-09-25 11:44
to delay rybka 4 on the view that Fritz 12 maybe stronger, is nothing short of saying 'Vas lacks confidence', with that being said FRITZ 12 takes the prize, or is it a case of over promising.
Vas come out of the woods!!!
btw I have ordered my Fritz 12, and u should too.
Parent - By Patricio (***) Date 2009-09-25 11:45
Gook joke!

Best regards.

Patricio.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-25 12:14

> Fritz 12 maybe stronger


Chances of that are virtually 0.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-09-25 12:19
I would be very surprised if Fritz 12 can reach Rybka 3's level.
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-09-25 12:19

> or is it a case of over promising.


Who promised what? Fritz12 will have what strength?
Quap
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-09-25 12:24
Dream on...
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-09-25 13:13
Even if (Deep-) Fritz 12 would be expected to be stronger (I don't think so), the logic would not be to delay. It would of course be to release as soon as possible.

Actually, the logic applies from the viewpoint of DF12 and Deep Shredder 12 (and anyone else), in view of an upcoming Rybka 4. :grin:

I don't know where this delay ideas comes from. I've read that before, often. I don't think that it is realistic, because a release date has to be decided by other criteria. If there is a delay it will almost always be for "technical" reasons, like bugs or unfinished elements.

I mean, it would be entirely illogical, to

1. wait for a competitor's release, then
2. see if it's stronger than the own release candidate, and if yes then
3. delay the release and try to improve until the RC is better.

Because between (2) and (3) - and that would certainly be a long time like months in such a case - the competitor is being sold already while the own engine is not even released yet. It doesn't make sense. No, if a (2) case would have to be expected, a programmer and company must try to quickly release first, before the other engine. Because that would be the window of opportunity for sales.

But as mentioned, I don't think that Rybka has to fear any engine in the next one or two years. Maybe the gap will become a little smaller.
Parent - - By tigershark (**) Date 2009-09-25 13:40 Edited 2009-09-25 14:38
What a ridiculous thing to say. How can you draw the conclusion that because Rybka 4 has not yet been released, Vas must not have confidence in his product? There is no basis for such an accusation; it's pure conjecture on your part and not very good conjecture at that.  Since a release date has not been announced it's not even accurate to say it's been delayed so where's the problem? You are drawing a parralel with Fritz 12 that doesn't even exist? Where did Vas ever say he would release Rybka 4 before Fritz 12?
Parent - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-09-25 14:17
I agree with most of what you said but, dont be to personnal in attacking others.

Just a friendly advice if I can ?

regards
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-09-25 15:03
We all are looking to Rybka 4, but saying Vas lacks confidence is not on. Vas has his reasons for not releasing R4 yet. Having said that, are you expecting vas to shake in his boots and prove that you are wrong? Vas is a business man and I believe that he will come with a strong R4. As for Fritz 12, I doubt if it will reach R3 strength. By the way, I also like Fritz.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-09-25 15:20
Lack of confidence is definitely not one of Vas' problems...
Parent - - By cghori (**) Date 2009-09-26 16:33
Why the big fuss over the release date of Rybka 4? Isn't Rybka 3 strong enough for you guys?  Haven't you heard about "the law of diminishing returns"?

Rybka 3 could probably beat 99.99% of the GMs in the world and every computer program thrown at it.  And that's not good enough??
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-27 02:14
The car shouldn't have been invented, because people can get to places by walking?
Parent - - By FWCC (***) Date 2009-09-26 17:55 Edited 2009-09-26 17:58
Haha there is no way F12 is going to be stronger than Rybka.

True Genious needs soilitude

FISCHER DID IT ALONE!!
Parent - - By Thin Ice (**) Date 2009-09-27 03:19 Edited 2009-09-27 04:01
All you guys make me laugh hysterically!Especially when i hear statements like"..."there is no way F12 is going to be stronger than Ryb",or beat Ryb.
Most of you guys talk in "cliches" and must be real amateurs,especially when it comes to long duration correspondence chess,hardware and more.
I have been playing corresp chess using every type of computer software out there...all the Ryb and Deep Ryb series,all the shredder and deep shredder programs,Deep Fritz and every tabletop computer out there like Tasc-R-30.Many many times I have beaten so called stronger programs like Ryb,or at the very least forced alot of draws using the so called weaker programs like Shredder....atleast in corresp play...which many of us use these programs for.You amateurs must understand (like YOU FWCC!)that not all users of Ryb know all there is to know about "tuning" Ryb for optimum performance,the proper contemps at the right moment,the right engine depending upon the position and lengths of analysis time and much more...even surfing the net while Ryb is analyzing can affect its performance!Not to mention many opponents do not have the best computers/hardware ect ect......compared to me!All of this can make a difference in Deep Shredder or F12 beating RYB 3 or 4!For example,if I challenge an opponent on a chess corresp site that I notice is playing say,50 games at one time(and i'm playing 2 or 3 games) and he has to respond with all his 50 opponents in a 2 or 3 day per move game,you know for sure that this opponent will not have enough time in the day to use extensive analysis mode,which is the stronger way to use RYB.So,lets say he has a duo core(I'd say most players have this,not a quad) and has to set much smaller time limits on his 50 games...and he is using RYB 3.Now,I have a quad with all the bells and whistles and can take 24 hours to analyze each move using Deep Shredder or the new f12 thats coming out.I also pick white ahead of time with an opening that either has some of the highest statistical success's or pick an opening that moves out of book quickly,like a Trompowski.I fine tune the contempt on my Deep Shredder or F12,make sure my water cooled system is working properly,make sure the hash is 2000 and put the pedal to the metal!
Your telling me FWCC that you would stake your life that I cannot beat Ryb 3 and/or 4 with F12 or Deep Shredder under these conditions?Well you better get the rope and jump off the Empire State Building with it around your neck!
Believe me...I know that Ryb is the strongest chess program out there!But,and this is a big but....it cannot always win games over weaker programs if the USER dosen't set it up each and every time for max performance and has the better hardware....laptop compared to a massive quad,for example.
I know for absolute certainty that I have beaten RYB 3 with Deep Shredder MANY TIMES!!!!
So in summary,there are specific cases,especially in corresp chess where many players simply do not have the knowledge,experience or patience to use Ryb properly and simply "assume"that it will beat a lesser rated program like Deep Shredder or possibly F12.Some players simply set a 3 stage time control in a 40/2 game and hope for the best...what a laugh!
I have an opponent right now that is using Ryb against my Deep Shredder and he used a Grob opening as white against me.His first mistake!I'm already up 2 pawns in less than 20 moves!See?So much depends upon the user,not the RYB program.
All you guys worship Ryb like its always going to beat everything out there...and this couldn't be further from the truth!
If you guys knew how to make the most out of Ryb and make it play to its optimum performance,then you guys wouldn't be asking all these questions in the forums!!
You don't know who I am,but I can tell you this....my rating on one of the specific correspon.sites out there is close to 2600 now using some Ryb but also alot of Deep Shredder.So don't ever meet me on the playing field when I just tuned my big 3Ghz quad with my Deep Shredder or F12 and automatically expect to beat me with your Ryb or Deep Ryb 3 or 4,because you will be most likely disappointed...like many Ryb users have in the past!
I respect Ryb... but it can and has been beaten many times...under the right hand...mine!
You guys might have the right software in your hand...but just like a tool,if you don't use it properly...(like most of you do not)and have cheap Duo cores or lousy laptops ....don't expect to win like your weak "cliche"minds think you will.Now its time to for me to leave...while I laugh at you....FWCC and others that side with him!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-27 03:47
Says the person that manages his time worse than unattended Rybka?
Parent - By Asylum (**) Date 2009-09-27 08:28

>the right engine depending upon the position


You have a point there!
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-09-27 12:30
Dude, get a grip.  Whatever your merits as a correspondence player, you are a terrible writer.  For my money, that's the more important skill.
Parent - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-09-30 12:13
Of course you can use Deep Fritz or Deep shredder at 24 hours per move to beat rybka3 at 3 minutes per move but I do not see the point in doing it because you can also use Deep rybka3 at 24 hours per move to beat rybka3 at 3 minutes per move.
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2009-09-27 08:40
Whilst I agree with others here who say 'Vas does not lack confidence' (you only need to look at the journey he has made to see he is not a follower), I do believe he is looking to improve his confidence in the performance of Rybka 4.  Testing is always about improving your confidence in the thing you are testing.  R4 is no different to anything else in this world that requires testing prior to release; until the release criteria is met then the release will not happen.  Sometimes this criteria is biased towards quality, sometimes schedule, sometimes cost, and so on, whatever the combination is for Vas there will be factors that will be influencing Vas's confidence judgement on the degree of 'release readiness' for R4 so if this is what you meant then I agree with you.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-09-27 10:59
I wonder which other programmer interacts with the users like Vas. Rybka users are so  blessed to have Vas. Vas produced the strongest engine in the world, but he is still being bullied by the program users :). The other authors SMK, FM, MU, GCP, AN are not being pushed around to release their engines like Vas :) Even if R4 could be 100 elo stronger than R3, vas is going to be pushed around to release R5. Poor Vas, I feel sorry for him :)
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2009-09-27 11:49
Don't forget that this forum was either the idea of Vas or someone from his team that he agreed with.  Like all choices that are made in life there will be consequences; some are positive and some are less positive.  i would like to think that Vas is someone that makes the most of the positives which is why he continues on this RYBKA journey for now - one day the RYBKA journey will stop for Vas - most of us on this website would hope I'm sure that this is many years away so that we can at least get R4!  ;-)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-27 15:18

> one day the RYBKA journey will stop for Vas


Who knows? He said he'd be moving to other chess variants after "chess" is over, or to other games altogether (e.g. Poker), continuing with the "Rybka" label, that's a reason he doesn't want the Rybka logo to be chess related.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-09-28 02:53
to delay rybka 4 for Fritz is just smart business sense since both are being marketed by chessbase.
Parent - - By Eagleclaww (***) Date 2009-09-28 19:23
Its getting harder to program chess engines to have any but small increases in strength. I think a lot of programmers are focusing on trying to make thier engines more efficient, so the newer version would solve problem XYZ or QRP in less time than the previous version. That would translate into a stronger blitz engine, but not nessesarily a big increase at slower time controls.

Now, I would doubt Fritz 12 would be stronger than Rybka 3, but we won't know until the rubber meets the road.

I'm sure VAS is frustrated at not being able to get the sort of big increase in playing ability (Rybka 4 vs Rybka 3), that he was hoping for, and I think theres a good chance that Rybka 4 might end up being a combination of engine efficiancy and added features in the shell, especially the Aquarium version.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-09-30 10:29
We clearly know based on CEGT results that Fritz12 is not only weaker than rybka3 but also weaker than the free version of rybka.
I see no basis for your confidence that VAS is frustrated at not being able to get the sort of big increase in playing ability (Rybka 4 vs Rybka 3))

Uri
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2009-09-30 10:39

> We clearly know based on CEGT results that Fritz12 is not only weaker than rybka3 but also weaker than the free version of rybka.


What? Where are the results for Fritz 12? The haven't released it yet.
Parent - - By Silvian (***) Date 2009-09-30 10:48 Edited 2009-09-30 10:53
1.> The haven't released it yet.

German version is out !

2.Vas is alive ? Beeing in war on CCC I neglected this forum !
Sorry !

Regards,
Silvian
:)
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2009-09-30 11:17

> German version is out !


aaarrrghh....NOT FAIR!

What is its CEGT rating then?
Parent - - By Silvian (***) Date 2009-09-30 11:47 Edited 2009-09-30 11:53
First results in CEGT blitz, around +40 ELO points :

Fritz 11 ELO 2914 out of 8606 games
Fritz 11.1 ELO 2922 out of 3920 games
Deep Fritz 11 1CPU ELO 2927 out of 2450 games
Fritz 12 ELO 2954 out of 300 games

http://cegt.foren-city.de/topic,302,-coordination-fritz-12.html

http://cegt.foren-city.de/topic,301,-testing-fritz-12.html
Parent - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-09-30 11:52
+40 ELO is already good.

Thank you for the information.
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-09-30 12:04

> Fritz 11 ELO 2914 out of 8606 games
> Fritz 11.1 ELO 2922 out of 3920 games
> Deep Fritz 11 1CPU ELO 2927 out of 2450 games
> Fritz 12 ELO 2954 out of 300 games


These blitz-Fritz11-ELO-values are fitting to those I found in the CEGT 40/20-list
Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 games
Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2937 games

So I think, the strongest former Fritz-version on 1cpu ist DeepFritz11.
And then Fritz12 seems to increase 'only' with ca. 31 ELO.
But let's wait for larger game-amounts.
And let's look critical (yes) and open minded (!) at the Fritz12-GUI.

Quap
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-09-30 12:48
"Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 games
Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2937 games"

"'only' with ca. 31 ELO."

2937 - 2916 = ...
I would say it's ca. 21 Elo, but it's just a rough estimation :P
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2009-09-30 13:17

> I would say it's ca. 21 Elo, but it's just a rough estimation :P


Sorry, mathematics in primary scool seem to overcharge me.
You too?

I spoke about strength increase DeepFritz11-1core to Fritz12.
'Cause we only know first blitz-values I compared those values.
2954-2927=27
Not 31 as I wrote (sorry, no idea what I had calculated :-( )
And not 21, as you estimated so roughly. (Zunge wieder drin?)

Quap
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-09-30 12:48

> What? Where are the results for Fritz 12? The haven't released it yet.


I think he meant Fritz 11 :)
Parent - By Eagleclaww (***) Date 2009-09-30 20:02
I"m confident is the trends of engine strength, there is a definate curve going on, and it gets shallower as the years roll by.

As far as Vas being frustrated, I'm confident in the nature of humans to try and excel at what they do.  If they end up short of their goal, then frustration is a natural emotion.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Vas lack confidence!!

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