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Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-09-29 10:18

> 1) When will the mundialchess server be ready for visiting and testing?
> “Confirmed users in our website and players, could play about 15 days before tournament begins in our app fro FREE to probe and testing it.”

It has gone awfully quite all of a sudden :-(
We are less than a week for the 'official' tournament start. Curious how many times the start will be delayed...
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-09-29 12:02
quite --> quiet
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-09-29 16:55
As I heard, a kind of newsletter will be sent by email later tonight or tomorrow morning, covering playing zone in beta and changes of tournament dates.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-10-01 09:55
And again we are two days further in time without any sign of life from MundialChess...
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-10-01 10:17
Yes, it's a shame! It also shows me how badly we need a reliable and respected institution in this field. That's exactly what I expect from the 'Freestyle Chess Association' (FCA), which I am currently preparing, to offer some help, but also to control organizers, who generally are absolutely unexperienced with this kind of online chess.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2009-10-01 14:20 Edited 2009-10-01 14:24
"control organizers"? Now, THAT will be fun to watch.

The pairings for the rounds will be published on the website; players will receive this information by e-mail. The tournament will commence at  20:00 server time (Spain) on 25 October.
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-10-01 14:31
"Control" may be the wrong term and misleading. What I simply mean is to check whether a planned event is according to accepted standards or not. I think, you have ever heard of FIDE standards - why not create something similar for Freestyle Chess?
Parent - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2009-10-01 14:48
You may try, but they (FIDE players) are many and we (centaurs) are few.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-08-23 23:06
After some thinking I´m sure it´s only bullshit!

1. It makes no sense to have A, B and C categories for freestyle with this absurd Elo performances.
2. Time control of 10'+1" is also absurd for a freestyle tournament.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-23 23:39
2. Time control of 10'+1" is also absurd for a freestyle tournament.

As the time control gets shorter, the importance of big hardware and engine control becomes paramount, so this would favor good automation, yet the ability to take manual control at certain times (opening choices, selection between closely evaluated moves, endgame choices, etc). At 10 + 1, this tournament would be somewhere between a freestyle tournament and an engine tournament. I think it would be interesting to participate in, and might be won by the team that put together the best coordination software prior to the event. Obviously the RC would be the significant early favorite.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 00:27
At 10+1 it really comes down to this: can you flip between manual assistance and engine control at some point in the game of your choosing.  If yes, you can compete; if not, you're hosed.  The quickest pure Freestylers can maybe get off a non-book move every five seconds.  Deducting one second you could, in theory, get off 12-15 moves per minute.  Thus all but the longest games could be completed.  But what kind of a game is that?  It's so fast it really isn't Freestyle.  You can't do anything a Freestyler can do to add value.  In terms of preserving your nervous system you're better off just running your engine and hoping your book performs well.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 00:57
I had a UCI tool at one point that let me choose when to have the engine move and allowed an escape to let me put in a different move. At 10 and 1, seconds count, so this would need a really good interface to give it positive value. But since I'd be even happier to play in a high stakes, open engine competition, I can't say I'm disappointed!
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 00:30
Just heard from Anson; he can't make it, schedule conflict.  And I can't sub for him at that time control.  Only he could perform under those conditions.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 00:54
Must be a pretty major schedule conflict given the size of the prize fund. And if the prize fund is really what they say it is going to be, and the entry fee is only 40 Euros, you should probably put together an interesting book and enter in engine mode.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-08-24 02:19 Edited 2009-08-24 02:22
Note that they say, their own chess software(*) (online client, as I guess they mean) must be used in that tournament. So I doubt that there will be a true automatic engine mode as known from Playchess. - But as Roland says, the time control 10m+1s makes no sense if human input is required in each case. Especially the bonus time of one second only doesn't seem appropriate for advanced chess. x+1 may be useful for online games between human blitz or bullet wizards. But even if you can premove or drop a couple of moves, it will bring maybe 30 seconds total while the base time is 600 seconds.

If it needs to be blitz in that time range, 5+5 would make much more sense. - So far, the whole thing seems to be half-baked to me... According to the rules, the final phase will even include tiebreak games with 5+1 and 5+0 vs. 4+0 armageddons. :lol: I'm still not sure if they really mean the same advanced chess what we call freestyle chess. I don't find an explanation or definition at the Mundial Chess site.

*) presumably Flash based, as they mention Adobe Flash player as a technical requirement
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 02:46
OK, I went and looked at the web site. Here are my thoughts:

1) It would be really hilarious to see a chess match between Nelson Hernandez and Vasily Topalov. I would gladly pay to see this (short) event! :-D So I hope Nelson will reconsider and do whatever it takes to win!!!
2) It says: This tournament will be exclusively on-line in this website, neither download nor install of additional software or application required. Lets assume that you are correct and that there is an Adobe flash GUI communicating with their server. Do you think they will encrypt the data transfers? I'm guessing they won't. If they don't, it would certainly be very advantageous at these time controls to have a direct interface to your engines, rather than relying on sneaker net.
3) I agree that these time controls are totally incompatible with what we have been calling "freestyle chess". But we all know the golden rule (He who has the gold makes the rules). So if this is serious and there will really be this kind of prize fund for an enhanced open engine tournament, I'm sure there will be plenty of interest, even if it has been scheduled on Anson's wash day!

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 11:02
I am totally uninterested in playing Topalov.  There is nothing said about the winners playing Topalov with computer assistance.  We'd be totally on our own, apparently.  Just imagine me flying all the way to Spain only to hang my queen in front of hystericaly laughing spectators!  Now, if the game were against Danailov...  :)
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 21:30
Well, I could probably make a space on my wall for a picture across the board from Topalov. In any event, this organization is clearly aiming to appeal to the masses, so the version of freestyle chess that we know and love is understandably of no interest to them. Will they get the 10,000 or so entrants to make it pay off? I doubt it, but I salute them for trying.
Parent - - By mikal (**) Date 2009-08-24 06:57
My thoughts:

10+1 time control is ridiculous that's almost like playing dice. If that is human input then it is even much worst and if it is computer automated then it takes less skill to win since you mostly need fast hardware rather than centaur skills. A good time control is 60+15 and 90+30 or any similar long game to have some quality games and competitiveness.

Also basing the tours on FIDE elo is also ridiculous, it seems the myth of most GMs are also good at computer assisted chess continues. They should just merge the tour and everyone get equal chances instead of separating it and basing it on some organizations elo rating.

And why do they request passport information? Isn't this done on the internet and not on some other place on some country?

And IMO I think this tour is kinda premature, it seems it just popped out of nowhere. The English in their website even feels like it's just translated using some automated translator like babelfish or some sort.
Parent - - By oneillmocuishla (*) Date 2009-08-24 18:51 Edited 2009-08-24 19:02
Waw!!,You write really a lot!!.Yes,10+1 is ridiculous.Why don't email to the organizers suggesting some more consistent(10 + 15 or 90 + 30)?.I agree about your thinking.Anyway,if God let me,and they play,I'll be there,no matter ridiculous time rythm.I supose you are expecting me saying I will crash each of you,but I am becaming modest.I will only win,gently.ha ha!!.Or may be not,I think too much about women(maybe you could consider sacrificing a lovely sister,ha ha).Salutations to everybody.It will be always a pleasure play with you.(O'Neill-Shun_Zu).
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-24 22:45 Edited 2009-08-24 22:48
Es tu culpa, O'Neill!  La derota de Tiviakov fue gloriosa tacticamente pero un desastre estrategico!  Ahora todos estamos jodidos con este idiotez de 10+1.  Ahora un tipo como Pablo Restrepo podra tratar a prolongar las partidas y ganar todas por tiempo.
Parent - - By oneillmocuishla (*) Date 2009-08-25 16:17
Antes de la exhibición estaba previsto prohibir el uso de programas de ajedrez.El ajedrez es filosofía del conflicto,en cuanto juego de guerra requiere tiempo.El ritmo bueno era el antiguo,el ajedrez se ha devaluado.Pero lo importante es que podemos jugar.Tiviakov es excelente,un jugador de los mejores,pero ganar a GM's es como jugar con niños,su ajedrez es bastante infantil.Kasparov,Anand,Topalov... son triviales,sólo Fischer merece mi mas hondo respeto como artista.Personalmente sólo me interesan como rivales Railich,Sephiroth,Anson y los demás chalados del freestyle.De hecho ningún GM ha aceptado jugar contra mi por dinero.Y no es que sea prepotente,es que me duele la falta de respeto al arte.A Tivi le dije q ganaria todas,regalando tablas en la última,y que a él le ganaría 8-0.Le rogué que jugase.Creo que nosotros especialmente debemos estarle agradecidos,y el ajedrez mismo,pues no se escondió.Los organizadores son empresarios,nada que ver con el ajedrez.Creo que si se les solicitase un ritmo más adecuado por muchos de nosotros serían flexibles.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-25 22:06
I won't translate everything Sr. O'Neill says here as most of it is not really to the point.  But his last two sentences are intriguing.  They translate roughly "The organizers are impresarios who have nothing to do with chess.  I believe that if someone suggests a time control that is more adequate for us (Freestylers) they would be flexible."

It's worth a try, but we need a credible front man.  I can only think of two who aren't GMs: Vasik and Arno.  Both of them have the reputation and/or skill set to pull it off.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 03:35
Well, actually Arno is a GM in correspondance chess.

In any event, thanks for the translation, but I'm a little disappointing about the mild content compared to his much more memorable post during the last freestyle event.
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-08-26 10:16
Alan, I always enjoy reading your postings and would never ignore any of it :)
It's a big difference being responsible for a tour - together with others - or being independent. In this case I enjoy all advantages from being independent, and I just see a big chance for us to tell the world, what Freestyle Chess (or call it Advanced Chess) is really about. If the tour will really take place, howsoever, that will lead to a dramatic change of the online chess world. It might become a 'giant leap' for the chess playing mankind :)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 12:30
It may be futile but really we have to make an effort to reason with them.  At 10+1 I can easily visualize critical games being decided by time loss.  I can see someone with a clock advantage riding it to victory by just prolonging the game in a drawn position if the opponent can't make moves in a second or less.  Time management becomes a dominant factor and thus whoever can move faster has a huge advantage.  Any concession on the increment would be a big help.
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-08-26 13:31
I will forward your serious arguments, though I don't expect the organizers will follow you. On the opposite, it's their idea to favour the 'human factor', that is to say, the better player is expected to have a better time management and to be able to play good moves à tempo. Also they might fear endless engine games with 150 moves and more... The 2nd tie-break with White 5' and Black 4' without increment may be seen as a clear sign.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 15:12
The more I learn about this idiosyncratic format the more I realize we need an official organization for Freestyle to handle business, promotion, communication, tournament organization and management, administration, IT, etc.  I would feel so much better if, for example, a sub-unit of the ICGA were created with this purpose in mind.  But I keep returning to the thought that we are such a pitifully small, super-specialized niche of the hobby.  We collectively could not afford to keep two visionary, energetic people employed even part-time.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-08-26 18:08
Do you want Freestyle with an 8 cores limit ? ;)
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 20:17
Obviously a "Freestyle" tournament must not have a limit for goodness sake.  Or at the very most you can break it into core classes and stipulate "up to 8 cores" and "unlimited cores" divisions.  But I think that idea doesn't really work as technology changes too quickly.  In ten years 8 cores might be something you have in your cell phone.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 19:54
The more I learn about this idiosyncratic format the more I realize we need an official organization for Freestyle to handle business, promotion, communication, tournament organization and management, administration, IT, etc.

This is definitely not what is missing for Freestyle Chess. What is really missing is sponsorship and mass appeal (they usually go together). If freestyle expands from its current base of a few hundred people, it will be because someone we have never heard of decides to hold an event with a significant prize fund accompanied by a significant promotional effort. Amazingly, we may be witnessing that right now in the event you are excoriating because Anson doesn't like the time controls.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 20:30
Actually, Anson thinks the time controls are unfortunate but he thinks he could do quite well under these conditions as he is very quick with keyboards.  However he tells me he is out of commission through October 15th and that's that.  As for me, I can just imagine the train wreck if I were in a 5'/4' sudden death tiebreaker and it is too painful to contemplate.

There is tremendous latent mass appeal.  It is just a matter of making the right connections.  If you were to combine the potential player-base from Playchess, ICC and, not to mention many other servers, you'd have a monstrous number of people wanting to try out.  Sponsorship comes when a slick, totally credible entrepreneur sells the idea in the form of a total package.  It doesn't just pop in some corporate Marketing guy's head, you know that!

As for my excoriating this thing--you're right.  What I would like to see is not a pell-mell rush to hold a half-assed tournament.  I'd like to see something take form that was orderly, practical and allowed Freestylers to demonstrate their playing merits instead of their capacity to do fancy keyboard tricks.  I would like newcomers to this niche to form a favorable first impression, too.  This isn't it.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 19:46

I think a lot of people who really enjoy freestyle are focusing on the wrong thing here. We would be much farther down the road if chess players learned the golden rule and stopped bashing events and organizers. Assuming this is for real, it means that we have another organizer/sponsor for advanced/freestyle chess. This is a really good thing, even if some of the conditions at the onset aren't optimal. If the event is successful, the rules can always be improved for future events.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-08-26 20:35
Let me make this clear.  I am neither bashing the organizer nor the sponsor.  Both are to be credited.  I am bashing the proposition they have laid out in an apparent vacuum.
Parent - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2009-08-26 07:26
I don't see why Vasik would want to change the time control, 10 +1 favours the cluster heavily, as it is.
Parent - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-08-26 09:56
You are right, regarding some of O'Neill's statements..., nevertheless thanks for translation. - I think, it's too late to demand a change of the basic time format, as the the registration is already open and they would also have to change parts of the schedule (after difficult internal discussions etc.). Also, it would not really be solved by some minutes and some seconds more; our experiences show, you need much  more time to give human a fair chance for interactive analysis, and that means a rather different concept.
Parent - - By Dennis Breder (***) Date 2009-08-25 14:56
I would assume that they just chose a misleading title of the tournament and the usage of engines etc. will not be allowed.
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-08-25 15:10
I tried to prove you wrong, but their Engrish is incomprehensible and there are several references (but no links) to the " Sports Discipline Rules".
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-08-25 15:36
An online tournament with a big prize fund without use of engines? These three things can never coexist! :-D
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-08-25 17:27

I just got an official approval by the Festival Secretary Mrs. Patricia Claros Aguilar, saying:

"ALL can be used (mobile, special programs, fritz, analysis etc.)

Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-08-25 17:45
fritz? :)
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2009-08-25 18:56
Breaking news? Sounds more like déjà vu to me.
Parent - - By Ciron (**) Date 2009-08-25 19:47
Many people were confused about the issue, whether engines are allowed or not (see e.g. Dennis some lines above). There was no explicite information so far. In this respect, I welcome the news, and of course "fritz" is used as a synonym for all engines.
Could you, please, tell me (and others) the essence of  oneillmocuishla's posting of today, which is in Spanish, a language I don't understand quite well?
Thanks in advance,
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-08-25 20:14
Google to the rescue!

Before the exhibition was intended to prohibit the use of chess programs is ajedrez.El philosophy of conflict, as required time.The war game pace was good old chess has devaluado.Pero important thing is that we can play. Tiviakov is excellent, a player with the best, but winning at GM's is like playing with children, their chess is quite infantil.Kasparov, Anand, Topalov ... are trivial, only Fischer deserves my deepest respect as artista.Personalmente only interest me as rivals Railich, Sephiroth, Anson and other cranks the freestyle.De made any GM has agreed to play against me by dinero.Y not be arrogant, it hurts me to disrespect ART. q Tivi told would win them all, giving away tables at the last, and that he would beat 8-0.Le prayed that we especially jugase.Creo must be grateful, and chess itself, for not escondió.Los organizers are entrepreneurs, nothing to do with ajedrez.Creo that if they apply for a more appropriate pace for many of us would be flexible.

It's more coherent than the website!
Parent - By oneillmocuishla (*) Date 2009-08-25 21:46
Well my friends,I will traslate my former message,being a reply to a reply of our dear friend Mr. Nelson.First of all,I met the organizers,and I am personal friend of Miss Patricia Claros.Yes,you can use all kind of software,I have fight to achieve this.I repeat,you can use Rybka or Black & Decker at your will.Now my traslation of myself,written to Nelson,but I know this is a public site.
  TRASLATION(more or less):

   Before the freestyle exhibition,the organizers intention was not allow the use of chess software.Chess is Philosofie of conflict.As war game require time.The classic control time was the good one,but the important thing is that we can play.Tiviakov is an excellent man,and one of best players.I beg him to play,saying him before I will win all games,and draw in last one,as I did.I think all the freestyle community,and chess itself must thanks Mr Tiviakov.
   But winning GM's is like playing against children,their chess is elemental.Kasparov,Anand,Topalov...are trivial players,only Fischer has my deepest consideration as artist.I am only interested as opponents in Railich,Eros Ricci,Anson and the others crazy freestylers friends.To the date no one GM has accepted playing agains me for money.I have offered amounts from 200 euros to 20000 euros.I offered play against New in Chess GM's,as his manager director,Mr Peter Boel rejected some articles by me,as I am not a GM.
   This is not overconfidence in my chess.But my dissapointment about the black hole where freestylers chess is hidden.As I can see is more important a G or a M than top quality chess.If I play against Topalov he will win 6-0.But if he accept being computer assisted maybe 0-6.Danailov analisys are not to be feared.
   Well...organizers are only bussinessmen,nothing related with chess.I think the will be flexible if you send emails to then asking for a more consistent time control.We can speak about,10+15,10+30....,after all the whole Tournament bases were made for non computer chess,and now all is changed.Yours O'Neill de Tyrone.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-08-25 22:17

> ajedrez.El
> devaluado.Pero
> dinero.Y

Wow, so it refuses to translate if you don't put a space after the period?

I'm not sure if that's lazy programming or advanced AI (infantil.Kasparov is not a word.)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-09-04 07:56

> Wow, so it refuses to translate if you don't put a space after the period?

Otherwise would turn into... when translated to Spanish.

I don't think I picked the perfect example, let's try again. Bulgarian and rybkaforum.нето.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-04 13:18

> Otherwise would turn into... when translated to Spanish.

I think you meant .
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-09-04 13:36
Why would it do that?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-09-04 13:51
Because "net" is "red" in spanish?
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / 'Advanced Chess online tour with huge prize funds
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