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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / Things are kind of quiet, so...
- - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-05-26 19:57
...I thought I would post an interesting game that I just finished.  It was played in the finals of the Veteran's World Cup.  An event that I like to play in.  I am playing against someone with a little higher rating than myself, he is an IM and I am currently a CCM.  The game is interesting because of 2 things... most of the analysis was done with Aquarium and Stockfish and it is an opening that I have discussed here before... the Mar Del Plata variation of the King's Indian.  GM Gligoric has an excellent book on this variation.  According to my database my 15th move "a4" has been rarely played, and does not have a good reputation.  I have withheld the Black player's name, because I do not wish to embarrass him.  However for the curious, the crosstable is on the ICCF website and I believe the game is visible there too. 

[Event "VWC 6/F"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.03.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Meiners, Edwin"]
[Black "Lastname, Firstname"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2383"]
[BlackElo "2431"]
[PlyCount "106"]
[EventDate "2017.03.15"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. Be3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. b4 Nf6 14. c5 Ng6 15. a4 h5
16. c6 bxc6 17. dxc6 Bh6 18. Bc4+ Kg7 19. b5 g4 20. Ra2 Bg5 21. a5 Bh4 22. Bxh4
Nxh4 23. Rb2 Qe8 24. Rff2 Be6 25. Qd3 Kh6 26. Rfd2 Bg8 27. Kh1 Ng6 28. Rd1 Rb8
29. Nc2 Bxc4 30. Qxc4 Qf7 31. Qf1 Ne7 32. Nb4 Rg8 33. Na6 Nxc6 34. Nxb8 Rxb8
35. b6 axb6 36. axb6 Nd4 37. b7 Kg6 38. Ra1 c6 39. Qa6 Nd7 40. Ne2 Nc5 41. Qa8
Rxb7 42. Rxb7 Qxb7 43. Nxd4 Qxa8 44. Rxa8 exd4 45. Rd8 Kf6 46. Rxd6+ Ke5 47.
Rxc6 Ne6 48. Kg1 d3 49. Kf1 h4 50. h3 gxh3 51. gxh3 Nd4 52. Rc5+ Ke6 53. Rd5
Nxf3 1-0

Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 03:13
The black player does not understand KID at all. Computers are nearly useless except finding tactics and not strategy.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 06:42
You might be correct.  I play this opening only from the White side, so I don't really understand the Black motif all that well.  However, I do play the Black KID, but not the Mar Del Plata variation.

It is interesting to note that in this final I am playing 2 countrymen in this opening, that is 2 players from the same country, both chose the Mar Del Plata variation.  I won this one, the first to finish and I am ahead in the 2nd... but it is unclear at this stage if I will win the 2nd one or not.

The Mar Del Plata is interesting to me because I play White against it often.  The first time I played White against it, I did not realize it was the Mar Del Plata variation (I had never heard of it, until someone pointed it out to me in this forum).  I won that encounter because my opponent made a serious blunder.  I have lost a few of these openings and those experiences have enriched my KID tree (which is now quite large).

So I will not shy away from the White side of this, but prefer a more solid approach as Black.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 10:21
The thing is mar del Plata is the only opening which engines understand in KID from white side. Hence choosing it is safe.
My first game in ICCF was KID mar del plata which i completed as draw. All my games from black side contains mostly KID. I play it since engines nearly have no idea what to plan there.
Human intervention plays key role.
I learnt the hard way. AFAIK if u give time to white with useless black shuffling moves u gonna pay hard in KID. Sweet and quiet death awaits u.
In mar del plata engines do understand the queen side compensation.
Here is my 1st ICCF game.
[Event "S-Open/5-pr39"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2012.06.01"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Zielasko, Andreas"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2135"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 O-O
6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Nd2 Ne8 10.b4 f5
11.c5 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Nc4 g5 14.a4 Ng6 15.Nb5 a6
16.Nc3 h5 17.Ba3 g4 18.cxd6 cxd6 19.b5 Ne8 20.Qd2 Nh4
21.a5 gxf3 22.Bxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bg4 24.Rf2 h4 25.h3 Bh5
26.bxa6 Rxa6 27.Rc1 Bh6 28.Nb1 Rf6 29.Rc3 Qd7 30.Qe1 Rg6
31.Nbd2 Rg3 32.Nf1 Rxc3 33.Qxc3 Bg6 34.Nfd2 Bf8 35.Rf1 Qg7
36.Nb6 Nf6 37.Re1 Bh7 38.Qc8 Rxa5 39.Nbc4 f3 40.Nxf3 Rxa3
41.Nxa3 Bxe4 42.Rf1 Bxd5 43.Nc2 Nh5 44.Ne3 Nf4 45.Nxh4 Be6
46.Qe8 Bxh3 47.Kh2 Bd7 48.Qa8 Qh6 49.g3 Qe6 50.Nhf5 Qb3
51.Nh6+ Kg7 52.Nhg4 Bxg4 53.Nxg4 Qc2+ 54.Nf2 Qh7+ 55.Kg1 Qg6
56.Qxb7+ Kh8 57.Qf3 d5 58.Qg4 Bc5 59.Qxg6 Nxg6 60.Kg2
1/2-1/2


Also I have lost one by over doing in a position when there is no attack.
[Event "CT21/sf05"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Morozov, Dmitry Viktorovich"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2479"]
[BlackElo "2381"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O
6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5
11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.b4 Nf6 14.c5 Ng6 15.a4 h5
16.c6 Bh6 17.b5 bxc6 18.dxc6 g4 19.Bc4+ Kh8 20.Ra2 Bg5
21.Rb2 Bh4 22.Bxh4 Nxh4 23.a5 Kg7 24.Rff2 gxf3 25.gxf3 Qe8
26.Rfd2 Ng6 27.Kh1 Kh6 28.Nd3 Bh3 29.Nb4 Nh4 30.Nbd5 Rc8
31.b6 cxb6 32.c7 Qf7 33.axb6 axb6 34.Bf1 Be6 35.Nxf6
1-0
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 17:04
In your 2nd game, I feel that White played much better than White in game 1.  I didn't look at it in great detail, but I like his quick Q side mobilization.

In game 1, I dislike Black's 9th move, Ne8, it unnecessarily weakens c5, which is a VERY key square.  This Ne8 move is the move made by Black in my ongoing game, that I mentioned above.  When the game finishes, I will show that game.  If I manage to defeat Black, it might be a good plan for exploiting Ne8.

Anyhow, I feel 9. ... Nd7 is much to be preferred.

In the game I showed, if you have an improvement for Black, I would be interested (naturally).  But maybe better to discuss it on the board, if we meet.  Do you play in the VWC??  I am already registered for the new round beginning in the Fall.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 17:50

>In your 2nd game, I feel that White played much better than White in game 1.


i blundered in game 2 but not in 1.

>In game 1, I dislike Black's 9th move, Ne8, it unnecessarily weakens c5, which is a VERY key square.


That move is fine. Ne8, Nd7 and Nh5 all 3 are playable. there is no immediate threat.

>If I manage to defeat Black, it might be a good plan for exploiting Ne8.


i have played that many times. I haven't found any drawback in that which is immediate.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 18:05
As a White player of this opening, I rejoice when Black chooses 9. ... Ne8.   Key squares, like c5, are extremely important.

Of course, you are right, it is playable.  But there is a very big difference between "playing" and "winning".  My thinking is that Black has chosen a very cramped position in this opening.  And he cannot really hope to succeed by weakening such a key square.  At first when I had Ne8 played against me, I was confused.  It was not the normal move (or so I thought).  But then, after much thought, I noticed how to take advantage of the weakened c5.  I am not sure how much time was spent in my Aq tree on this position.  But it was a lot.  And continues, even now...
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 18:07

>Of course, you are right, it is playable.  But there is a very big difference between "playing" and "winning".


I have played it many times and with success.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 18:18
That is the thing about the Mar Del Plata... there are many many chances for both sides.  I have found that even weak moves prove to be strong sometimes!!

I remember my first game against it, I won the game, but thru no great understanding of it.  My opponent made a serious slip on his road to the win.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 18:20
I have well analysed those lines. There is no immediate refutation of Ne8. Completely playable.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 19:03
This is what makes the game still a game.  Two sides with completely different opinions.  This also makes this opening very dynamic and generally playable.  But one must always be open to new ideas and new moves.  I have spoken much about my first foray into this opening, and how I won thru a Black blunder... here is the game.  I am not very proud of this game, even though I won, it is deeply flawed, but interesting anyway.  It was played in a prelim of the World Correspondence Chess Championship, number 35.  My first WCCC prelim...

[Event "WCCC35PR13"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2011.03.10"]
[White "Meiners, Edwin"]
[Black "Arounopoulos, Stephan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2281"]
[BlackElo "2281"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bd2 h5 13. Be1 g5 14. Bf2 Nf6 15. c5
Ng6 16. Kh1 g4 17. Qe1 Rf7 18. a4 Bf8 19. Rc1 g3 20. hxg3 fxg3 21. Bxg3 h4 22.
Bh2 Nh5 23. cxd6 cxd6 24. f4 Nhxf4 25. Nxf4 Nxf4 26. Bxf4 exf4 27. Nb5 Bh6 28.
Rc3 Rg7 29. Qd1 Rg3 30. e5 Bg7 31. e6 a6 32. Nd4 Qg5 33. Bh5 1-0



At the time, oddly enough, both players had the same rating, 2281.  My rating has since risen about 100 points, I am not sure how Stephan has done.  In this game I have played a very bad way for White, and I probably should have lost.  10. Nd3 is not to be recommended.  I no longer play in this way.  The knight needs to stay home and help defend the White King, so it is a complete waste of time to play Nd3.  And time cannot be wasted in this game!!
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 19:49
Black change the correct path in the need. hence suffered.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:02
I have also played those lines as black. But in a better way. Now i play without letting white any time with equality.

[Event "NED/50 YEARS/B (NED)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2016.11.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Heinke, Richard"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "2366"]
[ECO "E99"]
[WhiteElo "2356"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Ng6 14.c5 Nf6 15.a4 h5 16.a5 g4 17.a6 b6 18.cxd6 cxd6 19.Qe1 Qd7 20.Ra3 Bh6 21.Bd1 Bg5 22.Nb4 g3 23.hxg3 Qg7 24.Nb5 fxg3 25.Bxg3 h4 26.Bh2 Nf4 27.Bxf4 exf4 28.Nxd6 h3 29.e5 Nh5 30.Nc6 Ng3 31.Kh2 hxg2 32.Rg1 Qh6+ 33.Kxg2 Bh3+ 34.Kf2 Bh4 35.Qc3 Qg5 0-1

Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:16
I believe that 13. Nd3 is a bad move for White.  I would not play it.  At this time, I am leery of any move of the White Knight away from the King side until much later, when the White King is safer.  In this game I would prefer 13. b4.  But I must stress "at this time".  The position is very fluid and Black can easily win this position if White makes even a small mistake.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:17
Agreed.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:23
Looking further into White's game here... I believe that 14. c5 is also a weak move.  I would prefer 14. a4, but I believe that White can only hope for a draw at this point.  But that hope may be elusive... and hard to get in a practical play on the board.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:25
Some times white has no idea whats coming in KID since engines cant see so deep in KID.

[Event "2017 USA - D (USA)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.03.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Hehir, Michael"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2252"]
[BlackElo "2378"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O
6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5
11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.Nb5 b6 15.b4 Nf6
16.c5 g4 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.Rc6 Bd7 19.Rxd6 g3 20.hxg3 Nh5
21.g4 Ng3 22.Nxa7 Rxa7 23.Bxb6 Qa8 24.Rf2 Rc8 25.Bxa7 Qxa7
26.Ba6 Ba4 27.Qd2 Qe7 28.Rc6 Bxc6 29.dxc6 Qh4 30.Qd5+ Kh8
31.Rc2 Bf6 32.g5 Bxg5 33.Qe6 Qh1+ 34.Kf2 Rc7 35.Qh3 Nxe4+
36.Ke2 Ng3+ 37.Kf2 Qxh3 38.gxh3 Bd8 39.a4 Nf5 40.Rc1 Nd4
41.Nd3 Nxc6 42.Rc4 Nge7 43.Bb5 Kg7 44.a5 Kf6 45.Rc2 Nd4
46.Rxc7 Bxc7 47.Bc4 Nec6 48.Bd5 Ke7 49.Be4 h6 50.a6 Bb6
51.h4 Nxb4 0-1
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:37
It is amazing... but I believe White doomed himself as early as 13. Rc1?  I dislike this Rook move completely.  On my list of candidate moves, it comes in at the 5th place.  Perhaps I would be giving away too much by telling you what I would play here... saving some surprises in case we meet "on the board".  But in my opinion, Rc1 is a time waster, and one cannot afford to waste time.

White must attack!!  And Black also must attack... it is the nature of this opening.  Attack!  No time to waste here.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:38

>White must attack!!  And Black also must attack... it is the nature of this opening.  Attack!  No time to waste here.


but the main issue is who is first to do that ?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:39
Lets play here in rybka forum. 1 move a day. What do u say ?
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:54
Ah... okay.  I am up for a game. 1 move per day is kind of fast for me though.  I will try to keep up.  The opening should go fast though.  Here we go:

[Event "Casual"]
[Date "2017.06.08"]
[White "Meiners, Edwin"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "2399"]
[BlackElo "2401"]

1. d4 *



Not a rated game, but our elo ratings at the start are: 2399 for Meiners, and 2401 for Prakash.

Since we are discussing the Mar Del Plata, and I advocate the White side...  I move first??
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:55
Wait wait start this in the correspondence chess thread. Make a post there.
Parent - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:57
I have only visited this thread (forum for Aq)... I will try to find the other one...
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:56

>1 move per day is kind of fast for me though.


No No u can play as u can. No worries. But dont delay much. Even one month is fine.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 21:01
Come here
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 21:11
I have found the correspondence thread... see my replies there...
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 21:13
:cool:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:28
I have faced this Nd3. But not easy to crack it as it looks.

[Event "2017 USA - D (USA)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.03.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Magat, Gordon"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2266"]
[BlackElo "2378"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O
6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5
11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.Nd3 Nf6 15.c5 Rf7
16.Kh1 h5 17.Nb5 a6 18.Na3 Bf8 19.cxd6 Bxd6 20.Nc4 g4
21.Nc5 g3 22.Ne6 Bxe6 23.dxe6 Rg7 24.Nxd6 cxd6 25.Qb3 Qe7
26.Bb6 Ne8 27.h3 Nf8 28.Bc4 Rg6 29.Bd5 Nxe6 30.Bg1 Kf8
31.Rc2 Nc5 32.Qb6 Rf6 33.Rfc1 a5 34.b3 h4 35.Rc4 Kg7
36.Qb5 Ra7 37.Qb6 Ra8 38.Qb5 1/2-1/2
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:39
Again the early Rook move... I have played it myself and I cannot do better than draw with it.  White should avoid this early Rc1?  Wasting time...
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 20:43
Looked typical when i played that.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 18:09
Of course, it goes without saying, White has an equal obligation on the K side.  A single miscalculation by White and the Black K side attack is very strong.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 18:29
Thats why its called KIngs Indian Defense.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 17:55
I just found your picture online.  You seem too young for the VWC.  A handsome fellow.  Our ratings are very similar, perhaps we might play if our country's had a match?  They often try to match evenly rated players.  A thought to share with my team captain.  I don't know if our 2 countries have had a match recently or not.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 18:04
Thats a good idea. Am from India.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-06-08 18:44

> A handsome fellow.


Be careful, that's just camouflage! :grin:
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 19:11
:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-06-08 18:42

> However, I do play the Black KID, but not the Mar Del Plata variation.


But how do you circumnavigate the Mar del Plata with Black?
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2018-06-08 19:47
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Parent - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 19:50
How to avoid the Mar Del Plata as Black?  An interesting question.  I will have to do some homework on that one.  But I always thought that the Mar Del Plata was a Black choice after White plays Be2.  I will lookup some of my KID games as Black -- but not many of them are facing Be2... I will post more after some research into the question.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-08 20:03 Edited 2018-06-08 20:06
How to avoid the Mar Del Plata as Black?

Well, after a quick glance thru my database, I have not faced Be2 very often.  I could only find 2 games, one very very old one (that I won) and one newer one (that I also won).  Neither are Mar Del Plata games, but do show how I might respond to Be2 from the Black side.  I am going to show the newer game, it was not an ICCF game.  It was played on Chessworld under an alias of "Bootstrap".  At this time, I do not play on Chessworld, as my ICCF slate is too full of demanding games.  This game is also deeply flawed and I do not think I would play this way at this time... my play has grown quite a bit since this time.  Usually, nowadays, I avoid the Mar Del Plata as Black by choosing the Nimzo or Queen's Indian... <grin>

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net server game"]
[Site "www.ChessWorld.net "]
[Date "2010.02.28"]
[Round "?.71"]
[White "Kiwiinoz"]
[Black "Bootstrap"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E91"]
[WhiteElo "2533"]
[BlackElo "2860"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. O-O Re8
9. dxe6 Bxe6 10. Bf4 Bg4 11. Qd3 Nc6 12. Rad1 Nd4 13. Nxd4 cxd4 14. Bxg4 dxc3
15. Bf3 cxb2 16. Bxd6 Qa5 17. a3 Rad8 18. Qc2 Nd7 19. Rd5 Qa6 20. Bb4 Nb6 21.
Rc5 Bd4 22. Rc7 Rc8 23. Rxc8 Rxc8 24. c5 Qc4 25. Qb1 Na4 26. Bd1 Nxc5 27. Bc2
Nb3 0-1

Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-06-09 12:43
Ok - i understand, that looks&smells a little Benoni... but when success gives you right, why not. :smile:
So basically it means you hope for something different by White when playing KID with Black... and what you tolerate in KID-territory is most likely that what you wouldn't give too much hope with White as well. :wink:

> Usually, nowadays, I avoid the Mar Del Plata as Black by choosing the Nimzo or Queen's Indian... <grin>


:grin:
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2018-06-09 18:37
I am quite happy with the White side... so I guess that means that I DO give White hope.  But even in the best of circumstances, it is a very sharp game.  So both White and Black must play carefully and not much room for mistakes... by either side.
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2018-06-10 08:07
When you play KID with Black, you obviously must also be prepared for White's best... so when you Benoni-out of Mar del Plata or have something smart vs. Makagonov, than be ready that your future opponents will also follow your example and you're on the other side of your approach... but funnily, what would be just strategic game-play, is just a theoretical thought as 99,9% just play what they want anyway. :wink:
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