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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs. Antares 0-1
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Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-26 17:37 Edited 2014-10-26 17:42

> When I can force my way into that position because the opponent's alternatives are even easier to draw, I'll give the root position a 0.00 score.


That's correct... but for the whole game, did you ever had the feeling you could force me into some kind of position, or was it me leaving you with moving-your-queen-around-the-landscape and only-moves? :wink:

> I won't go into details about what is happening here [...] Would be useful to know


I hope you aren't expecting me doing so either... :twisted:

> (A) either that position is actually won for black, but I couldn't find the winning variation
> (B) or you're aiming for the alternative lines where black actually wins but I discarded them as trivial draws.


Where actually here is the difference between (A) and (B) which are basically coming to same conclusion? Maybe (C) "you're just bluffing to distract me from the drawing-line! :evil:" adds more variety? :grin:

In any case, your uncertainty is normally a very good indicator that the current eval can't be 0.00, because with 0.00 there is no uncertainty but just a clear even/balanced/drawn position.

33...bxa2+

7r/1k2r1p1/2pbN3/1q3P1p/p1P1R3/6PQ/pP5P/1KB5 w - - 0 34


btw., i still stay behind my -1/2 pawn-(or -1/8 rook-)eval i have given a few moves back, chances are with, and only with, Black!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-10-27 00:39
"Forcing" here means you have no other option than to go with my mainline or a worse line. Yeah, after 25...Rh8 I see myself forcing you into my mainlines or worse.

Showing you I'm not bluffing would be detrimental, there are 0.00s better than others (the difference between drawn positions and dead drawn positions), so, yeah, we have to let the board talk.

>In any case, your uncertainty is normally a very good indicator that the current eval can't be 0.00


Huh? I have uncertainty at all times, even when I have the edge, or a big edge, or winning by two pawns. The only positions where I'm not uncertain is in 6men tablebases. And even then, when I'm feeding them into the engine I always wonder if I'll ever find a position that 6men tablebases say it's a draw but that an engine somehow can convert into a won position (I think turbojuice says that's something not forbidden by the laws of physics, so it's in fact possible.)

> i still stay behind my -1/2 pawn-(or -1/8 rook-)eval


My evals are not what the engines say, but my own. For me, the evaluation shown by the engine is meaningless, it only matters whether forcing the moves make it go up (better for white) or down (better for black.) Here I haven't been able to find any position where black can increase its edge, so if it has maxed out, the eval must be 0.00.

And eval of -0.50 means for me, that if you saw this position from the distance, you'd abandon all positions where black had an eval of -0.49 or closer to 0, and white would abandon all positions where white had an eval of -0.51 or worse.

If I saw this position from the distance and I was black, I'd rather go for one where black had at least an eval of -0.01 (i.e. a position where it can go from whatever negative evaluation it has to increasing it by a -0.01 more and white can't do anything about it), that's what my eval of 0.00 means.

Ponder hit!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4 Kc7 20. f4 b5 21. Nd4 Kb7 22. Re2 Qc7 23. Bc1 b4 24. Rde1 Nfe4 25. Qg4 Rh8 26. g3 h5 27. Qh3 a4 28. Bxe4 Nxe4 29. Nxe6 Qb6 30. Rxe4 dxe4 31. f5 Qb5 32. Rxe4 b3 33. c4 bxa2+ 34. Ka1

7r/1k2r1p1/2pbN3/1q3P1p/p1P1R3/6PQ/pP5P/K1B5 b - -
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-28 07:42
Funny, you write like you would dominate this game - or at least even understand it, but looking at the board i see you're now just down the exchange for no real compensation... :twisted:

> "Forcing" here means you have no other option than to go with my mainline or a worse line. Yeah, after 25...Rh8 I see myself forcing you into my mainlines or worse.


While that's true, your mainline is most likely one of my rare sidelines i already laughed about some weeks ago :wink:, therefore i think its more "dreaming" than "forcing"! :lol:

> My evals are not what the engines say, but my own.


Mine as well, yet obviously engines are a pretty valuable tool judging positions. :smile:

> For me, the evaluation shown by the engine is meaningless


Reminds me to my game against José, where i -being a pawn down but with a clear-cut plan- already announced a draw in the middle-game... yet i knew what i was talking about!

34...Qb3 *

7r/1k2r1p1/2pbN3/5P1p/p1P1R3/1q4PQ/pP5P/K1B5 w - - 2 35
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-28 11:13
Oh, and now sell us 35. Qg2, already the 8th forced move in a row, as another big big "PONDER HIT!!!"! :grin::lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-10-29 01:18
Oh yeah? And what are you going to do if I happen to draw this game easily as I claimed? Will you apologize for saying I didn't know what I was talking about?

Because, today is a special date:

One month ago you claimed an advantage of a half pawn and IT HAS NOT INCREASED!

That's a fact, by your own admission, so I guess it's a static advantage? Because I have never seen someone win with one...

And, will do so:



(with the message: "I preferred to spend time making this graphic than analyzing more positions from the game") :twisted:

And, if my moves are like this, why didn't you send a long conditional the other day? The game would have gone much faster! Do you want more time to look for that elusive -0.51 advantage position? :lol:

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4 Kc7 20. f4 b5 21. Nd4 Kb7 22. Re2 Qc7 23. Bc1 b4 24. Rde1 Nfe4 25. Qg4 Rh8 26. g3 h5 27. Qh3 a4 28. Bxe4 Nxe4 29. Nxe6 Qb6 30. Rxe4 dxe4 31. f5 Qb5 32. Rxe4 b3 33. c4 bxa2+ 34. Ka1 Qb3 35. Qg2

7r/1k2r1p1/2pbN3/5P1p/p1P1R3/1q4P1/pP4QP/K1B5 b - -


(gosh, the trash talking in this game is spectacular!)
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-29 10:31

> Oh yeah? And what are you going to do if I happen to draw this game easily as I claimed? Will you apologize for saying I didn't know what I was talking about?


While i see no real reason letting you celebrate a [then lucky tablebase-] draw with White(!)-pieces in a game where you just played for a draw and already missed a lot of better attacking moves (this thought to be an Urusov-attack!), let me please give you some facts:

Some moves ago you stated (with an earlier given advantage of -2/25 which is practically not much): "But I was expecting, and used all my resources for 25...h5, which is the variations where black kept its edge. After Rh8 I still haven't found a variation where I'm not able to draw easily."

After 25...h5, you were refering to the endgame 26. Qh3 Bxf4 27. Bxe4 Bxc1 28. Bxd5 cxd5 29. Rxc1 e5 (side options here: Ra6 and Nce4), where both 30. Nf5 and 30. Nb3 i rated with -0.25 eval. What you missed (=its non of Stockfish's main options :razz:...) is 26. Qh4!, where Black just gets 26...a4 27. Bxe4 Nxe4 28. Qxh5 Qa5 29. Rxe4 dxe4 30. Qxa5 Rxa5 31. Rxe4 c5 32. Nf3 into an even dryer [-0.20 eval] endgame - indeed similar things happenend to earlier positions when forcing a4 to early and/or enabling the possibility of the exchange on e4 to early. In the 25...Rh8 26. g3 h5 27. Qh3-line Stockfish eh you completely missed 27...Qb6! (instead of 27...a4 i have chosen over it), which is a very good positional approach holding on the pawn with also an advantage/eval of -0.50... (the two mainlines being: A) 28. Nb3 a4 29. Nxc5+ Nxc5 where you could have chosen between b3, Qg2, g4 or Be3 where i at least have a -0.50-line against it; B) 28. Be3 Nc3+ 29. bxc3 bxc3+ 30. Nb3 a4 31. Bxc5 Bxc5 32. Rxe6 Rc7 where i had the same against 33. Re8 or Qf1). Conclusion: To me its a fact that 25...Rh8 is superiour to 25...h5 because of both 27...a4 and 27...Qb6!, especially as this 25...h5-pawn being undefendend would have been just a later target (for example in the 30. Nf5/Nb3-endgames). And with you expecting (and preparing for) h5, it is really luck when you can still handle(=draw) the better moves you missed! (and be sure i still have a few of those in the pipeline! :smile:) And this being just an example of 4-5 other similar choices in this game... one being where you claimed i missed something which i actually easily resolved myself and even you stated earlier being already resolved.

In the end, seeing you stating "the evaluation shown by the engine is meaningless {when Uly can't get them to rise, funnily "rising" relates to engine-evals declared to be a meaningless 0.00 eval when they don't rise}", im curious what this generous assessment of -2/25 {pawn} eval is based on? (it rises very very slowly on a pace of -2/25 a hundred moves?!), and as you reduced it from an even more generous -2/15 eval, as i have already lost nearly half of my advantage: what better moves YOU think Black has missed on move 23 (and be sure i can prove you here another inaccuracy*! :smile: {*=there were other good moves as well, i agree})?

Last but not least you still haven't answered my question: "You stated above "1.e4 is the superior alternative" & "best by test!" besides that "Well, I'm fairly certain this is the last time I play the Urusov, or the Bishop Opening [2. Bc4]" as well as "And if you intend to go for the Petroff, let's call this a draw already, I don't think I'll ever find a breakthrough to that [2. Nf3]" which makes me wonder what second move you actually want/will offer for an [superior alternative] advantage... :wink:" :grin:

> One month ago you claimed an advantage of a half pawn and IT HAS NOT INCREASED!


It hasn't decreased either [indeed i left it unchanged and just reinstated my previous claim], and i'm obviously aware that i have to discard some (high-eval) tablebase-draws on my way forward... yet my chances winning this (end-)game are pretty good (and your's non-existant), i like them!... that's more or less what +0.50 eval says to me (and you)! :grin:

> Ponder Hit!


At least it is not blinking! :lol:

> And, if my moves are like this, why didn't you send a long conditional the other day?


Isn't it YOU who doesn't even send a +5.00 eval capture-conditional? :wink: I'm just adopting a little to your [trashtalking-]style... indeed i understand both your move-&"making it look stronger with words-"selection now already blindly...

> Do you want more time to look for that elusive -0.51 advantage position? :lol:


No, i need more time to prepare my own trashtalk... :razz:

But leaving that aside, i want to say a "Big Thank You!!!" to some great people which made my residence at rybkaforum here a real pleasure:
- First and most importantly my friend Ozymandias for all the freestyle-sessions we had the last weeks, all the after-analysis and fun that games brought us and what he teached me about "sharp lines" (playing 27...a4 over 27...Qb6 is more or less a first experiment here!), upcoming pc-configs and talk about life (and beyond)... thank you Ozy!
- I want to thank Nelson Hernandez for answering my opening-question-mail back at 11...Kd7 [and being Nelson - one of the best guys in computer-chess], which made this game real special to me.
- Thanks also go to Dr. Robert Hyatt, simply without CrayBlitz/Crafty we wouldn't have so powerful analysis-tools at our disposal today.
- Thanks also to the authors of all the great tools at our disposal today.
- Thanks goes also to Alan Sassler/"Banned for Life", and while he has his little war with bob, i like most of his other comments and his general 1. b3-approach very much. Same is true for Kim/"kgburcham", Tony/"The Wizard", turbojuice1122, Sedat Canbaz, Martin Thoresen, Paul/"NATIONAL12", David Evans and a few other contributors especially in the "Computer Chess"-subforum.
- Thanks to everyone watching this game...
- [...]
- Thanks to every [positively-minded] creature on this planet!
- Oh, and of course thanks to you, Uly, for our nice game here including every single line of of battering&trashtalk. :smile::wink:

But now to my move: And yes, a) OF COURSE you were expecting my move here (i gave you more than enough hints in any way, but be careful, there are more surprises of this calibre ahead!) and not 35...a3 (what?, 35...a3, this patzer's move?! NEVER!!!), or b) of COURSE 35...a3 would have been so much better and you have now an advantage of +2/25 yourself!

35...Bb4 *

7r/1k2r1p1/2p1N3/5P1p/pbP1R3/1q4P1/pP4QP/K1B5 w - - 1 36
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2014-10-29 17:12
"One of the best guys in computer chess?"  Wow.  All right, I'll take it.  (Lifting my imaginary trophy in triumph.)
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-29 22:16
You deserve it! :smile:
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2014-10-29 20:21
Hi !

Are u saying that you play the Petroff with black and that it's impossible to win as white ?
If yes, I don't mind taking up the challenge as i find it difficult to equalize with black in the Petroff so curious....

Rgds
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-29 22:12
No, actually Uly stated "And if you intend to go for the Petroff, let's call this a draw already, I don't think I'll ever find a breakthrough to that" while later also claiming "1.e4 is the superior [opening-move] alternative" as well as "I'm fairly certain this is the last time I play the Urusov, or the Bishop Opening", so i wondered what second move he wants to offer after "the superior" 1. e4 e5 when 2. Nf3 (due 2...Nf6) and 2. Bc4 (see above) are practically excluded... (yes, he practically mated himself in 2 in this argumentation, but don't tell him! :lol:)
Parent - By Bouddha (****) Date 2014-10-30 12:14
:lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-10-31 03:33

> Hi !
>
> Are u saying that you play the Petroff with black and that it's impossible to win as white ?
> If yes, I don't mind taking up the challenge


Sure! We can start a new game if you wish, you play the white side and I play the Petroff, would be very interested in seeing you winning it!
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2014-10-31 08:37
Lets give it a try. I am not saying its won, but it will probably be painful for black if not lost....

I let you start the post after 1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5

rgds
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-01 07:39
That's very intriguing Bouddha! I have never found an advantageous line for white there and would love to see it!

Thanks for taking me on, I have created our game:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=29428
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-10-31 04:16 Edited 2014-10-31 04:26
Okay, nice. I wasn't expecting 35...Bb4 (I was expecting 35...Qd1) and have finally found an endgame that is lost for white but where engines show a sub-0.70 advantage to black.

-0.65 one position that my personal evaluation had as 0.00 because of the low number of pieces and the apparent easily drawn nature of it. But after forcing its continuation...



Suddenly losing the game.

I guess that's the problem with personal evaluations :lol:, at least engines also wrongly think that black isn't even a full pawn up on this lost endgame.

It's the very first such position I see in my life, I imagine it's the kind of position someone with access to 8men tablebases would want to reach (one where the first digit of the eval is 0 and the digit after the dot is less than 7, but the position is lost.)

So I'll take a look and check what the hell is going on (usually I defend by going into positions where the eval can't raise beyond a certain point, and when I can keep my eval low and exchange pieces off into a drawn endgame. Here doing so leaves me in a 0.60 evaluated 7men position that turns out to be lost, which is problematic. This is something new.)
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-31 21:37
Take your time Uly, in the meantime i will celebrate a little your [analysis&positions] fail-low and the [final?!] end of the nasty "0.00 eval"-times...

Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-01 07:32
I never said my eval wasn't still 0.00 :lol:

But I still have to recover from the fail low...
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-01 08:08

> I never said my eval wasn't still 0.00 :lol:


Indeed the most static 0.00 eval we will see in this game will be most likely the number of points you take out of it... :wink::lol:
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-02 05:06
Okay, while I search, please tell me, what does an eval of -0.50 mean to you? To me, it means that it's a position, that if was played several times, black would win some, is that correct?

So, that means if we played it several times, you'd beat me on it some (specifically, you think you could beat me this one.)

If that's the case, and I draw this time, I want to challenge you to a series of games after the position from 25...Rh8. How many games % does black win from a score of -0.50 in your book? Because I'm willing to play that many games and see if I can draw them all, because, even if I drew this one it'd not mean anything, it'd be within a statistical chance of -0.50 if I just drew once, so I'm willing to play as many games as necessary to prove the position is 0.00, until you are satisfied, or beat me.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-29 14:42
Hell, i even think i have an edge over you in graphics:


          

:grin:
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2014-10-29 17:12
Spicy game guys :grin:
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-10-29 22:14
Thanks for following the game Werner, i think its as freestyle as corr-chess can get! :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-02 08:17
Okay, I'll be nice and say that you have an advantage of...



-0.05

Though I believe I could drag it to 0.00...

Let's get there faster:

36. Qe2

Conditional:

IF 36...a3 THEN 37. Re3

IF 37...axb2+ THEN 38. Bxb2
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-02 11:42
Moved left.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-08 12:37
Now, what happened to your "Let's get there faster"-speedup-approach, i thought you wanted to show us here a few quick magical "-0.05 [eval] drag to 0.00"-tricks? :grin: Honestly, anything else than continuing your 0.00-bluff would be very disappointing, yet remember: a bluff is always best when told soundly (->pondering out moves quickly...)... :wink: Sadly your problem is: I already know your cards, and they aren't that good... :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-08 16:31

> no need for a second try, if you can draw this i have given my best and it was not enough this time. :smile:


But, will you accept that the position was in fact 0.00 if I draw the game? Because if not, I'm willing to play it over and over and draw it over and over until you accept it was 0.00.

> our followers will think their part seeing high raising evals on their screen


What raising evals, they're continued to be perpetually 0.50 according to you!

> I already know your cards, and they aren't that good... :smile:


My cards have been the same for the last month, you haven't been proving that they're worse! By your own admission, if you used my same metric to evaluate a position (i.e. an eval that doesn't rise means an eval of 0.00) your eval would also be 0.00 (because you haven't been able top reach it.)

Anyway, turns out playing 18 corr games at once was a bad idea XD - I have only have time to analyze about 9 hours total of this game since your last move (so if I was playing only this game I'd be where I'm now 9 hours after your move). I think I can force an endgame that I think it's drawn. Have to make sure before going for it though (imagine that I reach it and then there's a winning variation that you find and then the 0.00 falls down to heck! I'm sure you'd love that :lol:)
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-08 17:13 Edited 2014-11-08 17:17
First of all, Mexico is currently pretty present in our media (the 43 students killed by the drugs-mafia, the country adopting to a new green energy-approach, ...), yet sadly not our game.  :grin::wink: And yes, a few alternative moves would also be interesting to be played out, but one can not have everything in life. :yell::lol:

> But, will you accept that the position was in fact 0.00 if I draw the game?


Then you have outmuscled me and i will accept that (well, indeed as you know, it is so damn hard to win a corr-game in 2014!)...

Enjoy analysis.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-08 19:07
I get it, your win would be a lot more meaningful if you only got a single shot at it.

Okay, so after 1222 unique nodes analyzed here's my move. I could be wrong about forcing an endgame, and I could be wrong about the endgame being drawn, but I could be right.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4 Kc7 20. f4 b5 21. Nd4 Kb7 22. Re2 Qc7 23. Bc1 b4 24. Rde1 Nfe4 25. Qg4 Rh8 26. g3 h5 27. Qh3 a4 28. Bxe4 Nxe4 29. Nxe6 Qb6 30. Rxe4 dxe4 31. f5 Qb5 32. Rxe4 b3 33. c4 bxa2+ 34. Ka1 Qb3 35. Qg2 Bb4 36. Qe2 a3 37. Re3 axb2+ 38. Bxb2 Qa4 39. Qd3

7r/1k2r1p1/2p1N3/5P1p/qbP5/3QR1P1/pB5P/K7 b - -
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-09 13:31
Moved left again. :grin:
- - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-02 11:42

> Okay, I'll be nice and say that you have an advantage of... -0.05 [cp]


And i will be nice -but just this time and only because it is Sunday- not telling you what i think about the quality of your -0.05 eval-analysis (yet we have seen you haven't found a single line/move of argumentation against my last post challenging some of your analysis, but most likely you regard that -0.05 eval-NONSENSE (ups!, it got out of me! :grin::lol:) as such an answer...), yet be sure a) i will come back to it in the highlights end of the game and b) our followers will think their part seeing high raising evals on their screen while you still spend more time with Photoshop than serious analysis.

> Okay, while I search, please tell me, what does an eval of -0.50 mean to you?


I'm actually sleeping that time of the day between your question and your move... :wink: Anyways, i have given you the answer already previously: "yet my chances winning this (end-)game are pretty good (and your's non-existant), i like them!... that's more or less what +0.50 eval says to me (and you)! :grin:"

> I want to challenge you to a series of games after the position from 25...Rh8. [...] because, even if I drew this one it'd not mean anything


Is this already some way of preparing the loss you're feared of as statistically meaningless? Evals that don't rise are meaningless to you as well, what in the whole corr-world has actually a meaning for you? :grin: Hello, this is a corr-game, one has to play all that hundred games against oneself choosing the best moves... no need for a second try, if you can draw this i have given my best and it was not enough this time. :smile:

> Let's get there faster:
>
> 36. Qe2


           


> Conditional:
>
> IF 36...a3 THEN 37. Re3


           


> IF 37...axb2+ THEN 38. Bxb2


           


I accept both of your conditionals (yet wondering why you haven't given any for my move below as well as it is the only one practically possible / making sense...):

38...Qa4 *

(1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4 Kc7 20. f4 b5 21. Nd4 Kb7 22. Re2 Qc7 23. Bc1 b4 24. Rde1 Nfe4 25. Qg4 Rh8 26. g3 h5 27. Qh3 a4 28. Bxe4 Nxe4 29. Nxe6 Qb6 30. Rxe4 dxe4 31. f5 Qb5 32. Rxe4 b3 33. c4 bxa2+ 34. Ka1 Qb3 35. Qg2 Bb4 36. Qe2 a3 37. Re3 axb2+ 38. Bxb2 Qa4)

7r/1k2r1p1/2p1N3/5P1p/qbP5/4R1P1/pB2Q2P/K7 w - - 1 39
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-09 13:31

> I get it, your win would be a lot more meaningful if you only got a single shot at it.


Well yes, everything beyond that is basically "after-analysis", and when there are certain moves wanting to be tried out we can discuss about that.

> Okay, so after 1222 unique nodes analyzed here's my move.


I guess this is for the whole game?

> I could be wrong about forcing an endgame, and I could be wrong about the endgame being drawn, but I could be right.


Yes, that basically sounds like -0.05 eval... :grin:, anyways, here is my move (and i liked here 39...Kc8!? as well):

           


{Uly moved 39. Qd3 here}

39...Ka8 *

k6r/4r1p1/2p1N3/5P1p/qbP5/3QR1P1/pB5P/K7 w - - 3 40
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-10 14:49

>> Okay, so after 1222 unique nodes analyzed here's my move.
> I guess this is for the whole game?


No, I'm up to 2303 for the whole game.

>39...Ka8


Ha! I was indeed expecting Kc8 here. Would be hilarious if you beat me by moving your king into the corner instead of to the center :grin:

I have nothing here, so I'll go back into my hole. Hopefully the same concepts that I had for Kc8 work here, because, what can the King do from a8 that he couldn't do at c8?
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-10 16:24
:lol:, best way to force "your" endgame is always giving us a loooooong conditional-line, i may be just nice and simply approve it! :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-11 02:19
But what if I'm wrong and there's some endgame where black wins that I'm missing, and my conditional line only helps you find it? (you haven't found it or your eval would be higher or raising)

In other words, my mainline might have better black moves than your mainline and it'd help you find better moves as you'd know what I'd play for certain instead of having to guess.

I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm willing to accept the possibility that I'm wrong about my eval, while your big reinstating -0.50 GIFs makes it sound as if you were certain of a half a pawn advantage.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-11 09:13
Well, it was just a very kind offer making sure we reach the {single and absolutely forced} endgame you're drea... eh thinking of, so actually i just wanted to help.

> while your big reinstating -0.50 GIFs makes it sound as if you were certain of a half a pawn advantage.


Yes, i'm certain about that... i currently can't see anything which could improve your position better than that.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-11 17:56
Why would I want to improve it if -0.50 is enough for a draw? You know, if we reach draw by 50-move rule the -0.50 goes kaput.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-11 20:15
Can it be that you find no useful answer to my 39...Ka8? :grin: You seem to oversee that I MAY improve my position, and i can guarantee you one thing: You won't draw this game with (trash-)talk alone... :lol::wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-11 22:30
I haven't checked the game at all yet, too busy.

But I have time now, so let's take a look and see what Ka8 is about...
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-14 10:03

> 2014-11-02: Okay, I'll be nice and say that you have an advantage of... -0.05


To me a -0.05 eval position is one with very similar/balanced material (most likely even the same kind of pieces) and a [very] minimal advantage in development and/or space...

> Though I believe I could drag it to 0.00... Let's get there faster


...and in each case it can be played with confidence and without too much analysis... :grin::lol: yet, can it be that there is some sand in your "Let's get there faster"-gearbox? :twisted:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-16 01:25
To me, -0.05 means that if the position was played lots and lots of times, black would win some. I don't have the exact numbers, maybe 1 out of 100 games or something.

That's why a -0.50 should be won by black much more often than that. 10% of the time? I have no idea.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-16 16:04

> That's why a -0.50 should be won by black much more often than that. 10% of the time? I have no idea.


So the evals you're giving here in this game are more based on -to let it sound positively: your experience- over a elemental mathematical foundation? At least i prefer here a calibrated evaluation of -0.50->50%[black-]wins, -1.00->80%, -2.00->95%, -3.00->99%.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-17 01:06
-0.50 being 50% won for black sounds nonsensical, I've had -1.00s advantages in drawn games that I could not win if I playing them many times (mainly, I played the best attacks I could find and they drew, so presumably they'd have drawn me easier with other alternative moves).

We've got to test this in games in the future, I do believe I'll be able to draw you 9 out of 10 times for games in where you start with a 0.50 advantage.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2014-11-17 08:25
Is there a clock in this game? :zzzzzzz:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-17 10:37
Ozy, thanks for following our game! :smile: No, there is no clock in this game (given a corr-game it's even rapid as we already reached a later middle-game within not even 5 months!), and i think Uly here still needs/wants a little time working on his -0.05 (&"drag down to 0.00") eval-position (yet maybe he is just carefully considering an -0.06 eval-upgrade? :grin:)...
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2014-11-17 10:41
No clock? :eek:
That small itch I had for trying corr-chess, just shot itself in the head.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-19 05:29
This is still going way faster than my other games that at this rate are going to take 2 years to finish.
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-19 09:11

> This is still going way faster than my other games that at this rate are going to take 2 years to finish.


But you should also realize how unrealistic all that "for-the-sake-of-probabilites-play-the-position-over-and-over"-talk regarding a single corr-game really is :grin:... we simply wouldn't survive a reasonable sample-size, and even when we would, the technical abilities (analysis-software/tablebases/hardware/...) available at the end of the test would most likely let appear the first samples being of lousy quality and therefore to be repeated again... and again... and again, not to speak about the improvements (i even know about several for your side :lol:...) to be found on the way to this position, which in the end may be way more interesting at all! :wink:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-17 10:31

> -0.50 being 50% won for black sounds nonsensical, I've had -1.00s advantages in drawn games


Obviously i'm not speaking about engine-evals but -being based on them but adjusted for the way stricter corr-chess-conditions&requirements and my own endgame-experience&skills- my own evals (similar to your own yet pretty far-from-reality ones) i have given in this game. I think it is no secret that you won't find any serious engine not rating this position -1.00 or even better for black while i have still reinstated an [conservative/modest] -0.50 eval.

> We've got to test this in games in the future


Firstly i think we should concentrate on our current sample number one-game where you stated just one move ago (after my 38...Qa4): "I'm willing to play it over and over and draw it over and over until you accept it was 0.00."... currently i'm missing the move(s) how you want to prove this point even in our current first sample. :grin::evil::twisted:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2014-11-19 05:30
I've lost other games in the past and given reasons for it.

But I wouldn't have any pretext here, if you beat me, you'll be able to tell to the world that you defeated my absolute best. But this is only possible if I take as long as I'm taking for the moves.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2014-11-19 09:23
Take your time Uly as i really hope we will play this position down to a tablebase-endgame and both Nelson (or his great-grandson) gets a very good Urusov-game for his database as well as your questions regarding this position are answered/solved completely.

Seeing your "technical difficulties&effort" making progress in this position, and considering the additional knowledge gained in my last analysis-session, i decided for an in-between-the-moves eval-raise here :grin::

(still 39...Ka8 *)

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