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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / GM Joel Benjamin vs. Rybka: Game 7
- - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-01-06 19:03
[White "Benjamin"]
[Black "Rybka"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "3100"]
[Result "0-1"]
[GameID "228"]
[UniqID "296720"]
[WhiteClock "0:02:01"]
[BlackClock "0:35:28"]
[Stamp "1278"]
[LastMoves "42.Qe2 Qe1+ -299.92"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O Re8 8.f4 Bf8 9.Bf3 c5 10.Nde2 Nc6 11.h3 Bd7 12.g4 h6 13.Bg2 Rc8 14.Ng3 Nd4 15.Be3 Nb5 16.Nce2 Nc7 17.c4 b5 18.cxb5 Bxb5 19.Bf2 Rb8 20.Qc2 Ne6 21.Rfe1 Qb6 22.b3 Bc6 23.Rad1 Qb7 24.f5 Ng5 25.Nc3 a5 26.Qd2 Nfxe4 27.Ncxe4 Nxe4 28.Bxe4 Bxe4 29.Qxa5 Ra8 30.Qd2 Bf3 31.Rxe8 Rxe8 32.Re1 Rxe1+ 33.Qxe1 d5 34.Be3 d4 35.Bf4 Qd7 36.Kh2 Bb7 37.Qd2 Qd5 38.Qf2 d3 39.Nf1 h5 40.Ne3 Qh1+ 41.Kg3 d2 42.Qe2 Qe1+ 0-1
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2008-01-06 19:06
As predicted during the kibitz on Playchess. This is not the way you should play against Rybka if you want a draw with white. To bad Rybka isn't playing at her best strength; a well prepared opening book should be enough imo, instead of implementing contempt / anti-human factors.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-06 19:18
Maybe we could win the match with just a good opening book, but why shouldn't we optimize things for the draw odds condition? After all the home user will also be able to set contempt high as we did here. The other changes were probably just actual minute improvements that pay off far more often against humans than against comps.
Parent - - By FirebrandX (**) Date 2008-01-06 19:25
Its interetsing to note how many people felt the Rybka team was going too far with these odds in this match, yet already Rybka has won with a game to spare. Perhaps a future match would be where if at any point the human wins even one game, the match is ended in the human's favor :-P
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-06 19:33
This is kind of similar to how Kasparov has thought of these matches for quite awhile: that if the human can win on his best day, then humanity still has a chance.  Make an 8-game match or whether where the human gets whatever color he wants in all of the games, and the goal is to win a game.  Of course, we'd need to be dealing with top 10 to even have a small percentage chance of this happening, for which the prize fund would have to be sponsored by a company and be very large.  However, considering today's game, there is a chance that someone like Kasparov or Topalov could have won from that early middlegame position--Rybka clearly had no idea what was going on, and the problem was (as usual in games with GM versus Rybka) mainly white's inaccurate play, which will tend to happen at the sub-2800 level in such positions.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-01-06 19:53
Could you make some photos of the match for our website? Also here : is a request for photos, I guess it's in general good to have photos for the journalists.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-06 20:12
We'll try to get some photos before we are done.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-07 01:21
I sent one photo to Vas and to the above email address.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2008-01-07 07:34
I personally did not like Rybka's playing style with the the high contempt factor. She made some unesthetical moves and you shouldn't make her do that. As far as future matches are concerned; I think only 2700+ grandmasters with a conservative playing style will have a chance in these type of formats. Even then a draw for the GM should be regarded as the best possible result. Also it seems more fair if the human player can use an opening book or that Rybka plays without one.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-01-08 14:35
FWIW - the contempt settings which we used in the match cost Rybka around 30-40 Elo in self-play. It's a significant adjustment, but not astronomical.

Parent - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2008-01-06 19:22
Why you say Rybka is not playing at its best strength? Of course that it does it.

About Benjamin play I agree with you. His play was too sharp. He was not playing for a draw at all.

Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2008-01-06 19:40
Nevertheless, I think we can give a compliment for GM Benjamin for some good moments in the match, especially in the 4th game. (I think we must not have too big expectations for the last game.)

But Rybka requires an even stronger human master for this type of odds matches, maybe in the 2650+ range if that would be possible...

I must admit that although we of course know Rybka's admirable strength, I am surprised about the match win. Before it started, I was almost sure that a GM would win under these conditions. I thought going for a draw "only" with White is much easier for a Grandmaster, even against Rybka. Appearantly I was very wrong... or another clearly stronger GM could change the views on this again. But the skills required for this challenge seem beyond imagination :-D

OTOH, if 2 (or 3, hopefully) draws in 8 games were achieved, 5 draws seem possible too, basically. This question is certainly not decided yet.
Parent - - By Milton (***) Date 2008-01-06 20:55
I must echo your sentiments.  I expected GM Benjamin to win this match by a score of 6 to 2 or 7 to 1.  This was a nice victory for the Rybka team.

To Werewolf: If you happen to read this post, I am glad we did not come to terms on a bet. :-)

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2008-01-07 03:18
Same here.  Honestly I don't give Rybka credit for this one; I blame Benjamin for not persistently pursuing closed positions.  He could have learned from Pablo.
Parent - By Milton (***) Date 2008-01-07 04:00
I tend to agree with you, although I'm not really a good enough player to know if there was anything about those opening positions or about Rybka's style of play (because of her contempt settings) which kept Benjamin from pursuing that strategy more effectively.

I really hope Larry can get GM Benjamin to provide some post-match comments to address these issues.


P.S.  I am curious to get your opinion on how Rybka would fare playing the Philidor Defense against other strong programs.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-07 04:04
It looked to me like he entered into these in almost all occasions where it would not have given him a serious disadvantage.  In particular, there wasn't really anything he could have done in the two games today as far as I could tell instead of played stronger.  However, he would have needed an elo of at least 2800 to have played strong enough to have even had a chance of making a difference today, I think.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-01-07 22:16

> He could have learned from Pablo.

But Pablo can only draw a game out of about 200, so 1 out of 4 is clearly better.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-07 23:45
Oh c'mon, don't listen to people's exaggerations about how "poorly" Pablo performs.  In reality, he tends to draw no worse than roughly one out of 10, and he has had 20-game stretches where he has had a positive score.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 15:21
If Joel tried to play like Pablo, his skills would be wasted and he might score not much better than Pablo. Also I doubt that Pablo would score nearly as well against this version (with contempt set) as he does against the commercial one. Joel did try to block things up when it seemed doable. But it seems that having things mostly blocked is not enough, and trying to achieve a total blockade is pretty much a longshot. Also I tried to select defenses that made a blockade difficult to achieve.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2008-01-08 15:27
In that case I have to give you credit for being even more wily and devious than I thought!
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / GM Joel Benjamin vs. Rybka: Game 7

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