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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / How is Fritz 12 weaker than Fritz 11?
- - By h1a8 (***) Date 2009-10-12 06:05
Fritz programmers got super lazy this time. Maybe too much working on GUI instead of engine.

Deep Fritz 11 1CPU  2937 after 1248 games
Fritz 12 2929 after 778 games

Look here:

http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20BestVersion/rangliste.html
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-12 07:52
I think Fritz and Deep Fritz are different engines (unlike Rybka that is the same but with MP support), they should use different names to avoid confusion and these comparisons. Or they should do it like Rybka and release current state Deep Fritz hardcoded to 1CPU, nobody's going to miss the engine anyway and people appreciate a higher elo engine.
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2009-10-12 09:09
Of course they are different engines. But Deep fritz 11 1 cpu is an improvement over fritz 11.
It would be better if the programmers use the same engine of Deep fritz 11 for fritz 12 but hardcode it to play with 1 cpu then to create a weaker 1 cpu engine known as fritz 12. I hope you get what I'm saying. 1 cpu=1 cpu, so latter engine should be stronger not weaker. If this is the case then just copy the older engine and call it the new.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-12 09:16

> I hope you get what I'm saying.


No I don't, if Deep Fritz was called "Cooler" (just an example) the concept would be the same, Fritz 12 is an improvement of Fritz 11, while Cooler 12 is an improvement of Cooler 11. Cooler is MP while Fritz is SP. The engines having a different name would stop people from comparing Fritz 12 with Cooler 11, since they're different, unrelated* product lines.

Though I agree that getting Cooler 12 Beta hardcoded to 1CPU would have been better to the customers, though that'd have meant stopping the Fritz project (as the code would become useless.)

*) Other than same author.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-13 00:30
Deep Fritz 11 1 cpu isn't really an "improvement" over Fritz 11 much more than Rybka is an "improvement" over Hiarcs.  They are different engines that, though produced by the same programmer, are separate and separately coded.  The styles are even different.  Deep Fritz 11 1 cpu is an improvement over Deep Fritz 10 1 cpu, while Fritz 11 is an improvement over Fritz 10.  Some of your problem, I think, really does stem from the fact that the two engines both have the name "Fritz" in them, which I think confuses many people.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2009-10-13 09:19 Edited 2009-10-13 09:32
Turbo, I could be wrong. I strongly think that Fritz 10 and Deep Fritz 10 were the same engine. Furthermore they were released at the same time if my memory serves me well. I think this separation of engines were in Fritz 11 and Deep Fritz 11.

If they are different engines then this is misleading "With Deep Fritz 10 you get the same results as Fritz 10, just a lot quicker".

In fact this http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3511 gives the idea that Fritz 10 and Deep Fritz 10 are the same engine.
Parent - - By Dr.Wael Deeb (***) Date 2009-10-13 11:23
True,Fritz 10 and Deep Fritz 10 were released at the same time....this is not the case with Fritz 11 as the deep version was released later and the engine was also improved....
Dr.D
Parent - By h1a8 (***) Date 2009-10-13 17:40
And Fritz 12 was released even later but weakened (or no better) at 1cpu.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-14 03:48
This news article certainly does give that impression, but I recall doing some testing years ago and finding not only that the two engines would play different moves in the same position in many situations and output different analysis, but that Deep Fritz 10 is about 20-30 elo points stronger on a single CPU.  Of course, I wouldn't do these tests again just to prove the point, since these engines are pretty old news now. :-)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-10-12 08:13

>Fritz programmers got super lazy this time. Maybe too much working on GUI instead of engine.


>Deep Fritz 11 1CPU  2937 after 1248 games
>Fritz 12 2929 after 778 games


You read the list incorrectly. The correct way is:

PROGRAM'S NAME       ELO     +    -   GAMES
Deep Fritz 11 1CPU   2937   14   14   1248
Fritz 12             2929   18   18    778
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2009-10-12 09:16
I didn't list the + or - columns because most would agree that it is a sufficient number of games.
After all there's a chance Deep fritz 11 1cpu can be up to 40 points stronger than fritz 12 and a chance fritz 12 can be up to 24 points stronger than deep fritz 11 1cpu.

IMO, fritz 12 is at least no stronger.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-10-12 09:37

>I didn't list the + or - columns because most would agree that it is a sufficient number of games.


There is never a sufficient number of games until you play them all. :-)

>IMO, fritz 12 is at least no stronger.


It's not a matter of opinions but on statistics. And statistics say that F12 is not with a probability 100%, not stronger than DF11.
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2009-10-13 04:32
So Rybka 3 is not stronger than a 2000 elo program since there wasn't a sufficient number of games played.
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-10-14 10:51

>So Rybka 3 is not stronger than a 2000 elo program since there wasn't a sufficient number of games played.


Indeed. :-P

Some assumptions here to get rid of the indefiniteness of "a 2000 ELO program". A "2000 ELO program" is defined as a program that when competes with FIDE GMs/IMs/FMs etc it will have on the FIDE list an ELO rating of about 2000.

With that in mind i believe that Rybka 3 is stronger than a 2000 ELO program.
And we have an extremely high probability for that obviously from all the rating lists, from her games against people, etc. The probability may be something like 99.9999999999999999%. But it's not 100% so i can really ignore this 0.0000000000000001% and say with absolute confidence that Rybka 3 IS stronger. It may sound silly but i hope you see the logic behind this. :-)
Parent - - By Xaggard (**) Date 2009-10-12 09:52
Both engines are ugly clones of Rybka 2 series.
Sweet Deep Fritz 10.1 - where are you now? :( :(
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-10-12 09:56

>Both engines are ugly clones of Rybka 2 series.


Why do you think Fritz 12 and Deep Fritz 11 are clones of Rybka 2 series?
And what exactly do you mean by "clones of Rybka 2 series"?
Parent - - By Xaggard (**) Date 2009-10-12 12:36
Because Fritz 11 lost in a flash his amazing tactical ability and his playing style became so boring "fishy-2"
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-13 03:43
But Fritz 10 never had that style, the style people have praised as the "King hunter" was from Deep Fritz 10.1.
Parent - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-10-12 09:44 Edited 2009-10-12 09:46
Your title is wrong.

The correct question
How is Fritz 12 weaker than Deep Fritz 11(for one cpu)?

Note that I am not sure if Fritz12 is weaker than Deep Fritz11 and it is only an opinion.
You can only be sure that there is no big difference in playing strength between Deep Fritz11 and Fritz12.

Edit:To make it more correct

There is a big difference in playing stength with the right hardware and Deep Fritz11 may be significantly stronger if you use a quad
for both engines.

Uri
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