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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Ctg making
- - By Aaron87747 [us] Date 2009-02-13 20:10
Hello all!
I have followed many, many sets of instructions on ctg making, but all have failed. After I do it all and try my book, the book is fryed and engine is left to play. PLEASE, i need help. This is what I do.

1) Start out with database full of games only I want
2) Create Opening Book
3) Import games

After I import these games, most instructions say im done. But im not convinced, can anyone tell me if I have to do anything else???
Parent - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-13 21:47
send me a private message I will give you my instant messenger name and we will chat and I can walk you through the steps I use for book making that I learned from Kevin Frayer.
Parent - By ChessKnight (**) [ca] Date 2009-02-14 03:42
KingOfMate:

Thanks for posting nice links.
Kevin Frayer's web-site is very informative.

CK
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-02-14 02:12

> 1) Start out with database full of games only I want
> 2) Create Opening Book
> 3) Import games


Basically, these 3 steps are ok and I do not know why it doesn't work. Is your database too small? Does your database have games where Black replied to all the "usual" first moves, like e4,d4,c4,Nf3,etc.?

Maybe you need to try the same with a "normal" big database, just as a test.

Your 3 steps are ok basically, and if that doesn't work then something must be seriously broken.

If the software is ok and someone has a big database, he can create a generic CTG book like that, within 10 seconds. The book will not be very clever, but if the database consists of GM games, then the book will be a correct representation of Grandmaster opening practice. That should work easily, and if not, then there is a bug somewhere...
Parent - - By KingOfMate (**) [us] Date 2009-02-14 02:57
I Usually make my books pretty much the same way you do only I usually take it 1 step further, and once I have imported all the games. I then have the book learn from all the games in my database. Once Ive done that. Its just a matter of deciding on the book option settings to use. Im always trying different ones, but for most book makers they usually use optimise with minimum games 0, 1, or 2 up to move 100, and some use book learning, and some dont. You just need to find out which is best for you. I hope this, or my other above post helps. :)
Parent - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 05:19

> I then have the book learn from all the games in my database.


That is a mistake.  You should have a seperate database of only the finest games played in your database for the book to learn from, if and when doing "learn from book." 

The rest of what you said is about right on par ;)
Parent - - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 05:37
Aaron on second thoughts I wont be helping you out at all.....

Hi Brandon,

i've switched back to bin now, but i'm using ur book. what was so funny today was this: everyone was asking me which book i was using. i said SolidSicilian.bin. and they were like what??? the one by italian??? its a piece of crap...then i told everyone to sit down and try it out..and i crushed..and i mean DEMOLISHED everyone...i was 1700 when i played them..and i because 2200+. so ur doing a vg job...

P.S. don't give ur bin book 2 aaron..he was mocking it 2..
Parent - - By ChessKnight (**) [ca] Date 2009-02-14 19:02
Italian81:

Quote:
"i've switched back to bin now...."


.bin books gives you more powerful controls for hand tuning each and every single moves in each opening lines, plus you can merge wide range of different kinds of specific .bin(s) into one. I never found this excellent feature(s) in any other format of an opening book.

If .bin is made and tuned precisely can turn-out to be very deadly for opponent.

By the way, I used Sicilian Rush and Sicilian Rush 2 found to be nice one. Heratic is also nice!
But I do not like .ctg over .bin coz .bin gives more control in tuning plus highest degree of compression.

Keep UP
CK
Parent - - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 19:06
Thank you, I appreciate your feedback :)

I am getting the hang of the .bin book tuning and I find it very nice to work with through SCID
Parent - - By ChessKnight (**) [ca] Date 2009-02-14 19:19
Italian81

u r hidden hero coz ur website is nice, i just surfed. :)
Look at the silver shining lights and forger the dark side of the world.
keep UP good work.
CK
Parent - By ChessKnight (**) [ca] Date 2009-02-14 19:29
Italian81

Quote:
"I am getting the hang of the .bin book tuning and I find it very nice to work with through SCID "

Apply expert Kevin Frayer's same Formula for Hand-Tuning .bin through SCID.

CK
Parent - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 20:10
Thank you my friend.  I am working on improving my website each day :)
Parent - By Griswold (*) [gb] Date 2009-02-14 08:41
Parent - By Mark Mason (***) [gb] Date 2009-02-14 08:49
Aaron

One simple way to tune your book is to open Fritz and play back over your drawn or lost games. Open a game and make sure the relevant opening book (that you are trying to tune) is also loaded. Now play through the game, looking at the book tab at the same time,  to the point at which you leave the book phase (ie. no more book moves). If the evaluation was equal or negative for you at that point, then run Rybka in infinite analysis in that position (say to depth 18 or 19) and whatever it suggests as the strongest move you put this move into your book so that next time you play that line, the engine will choose the stronger move. This is time consuming but it is the way to make your book play stronger moves than other people's books.

In terms of how to manually edit the book - if you have the little booklet that came with Fritz 9 then in sections 5.6 and all of section 11 give details. Also there is a manual on the Fritz 9 DVD . Pages 49 to 54 give some instructions to have a look at. Meanwhile I will try to give a brief pointer:

Go into Fritz and do File/Open/Openings Book and select the book you want to edit. Then select the Openings Book tab on right hand side of screen. Basically you can either

a) add a new move to the book, To do this right click somewhere in that book area (not on a move just in empty space) and tick Allow Move Adding. then when you play back through a game and want to add the new line tou have just analysed, just make the move on the actual board and then select new main line from the options. This will then have added the move to the book permanently.

b) change the 'weighting' of an existing move making it more/less likely to be chosen. This is shown in the Prob / % column. To change it right click on the actual move itself and do change weight. The value is from -125 (very unlikely to be picked) to +125 (very likely to be picked). You can change these manually to any value. Actually this is what the automatic book learning does based on whether games are won or lost - but this is how you do it manually.

c) or mark moves either red (means they won't be played ever) or green (mean they will be picked, with a probablility given by the % column). To make a move red right click on it and select Don't play in tournament
To make a move green right click on it and select Main Move. You might want to make a move red if you find that at some point in the book line you had a negative evaluation and therefore you can mark that move red so it won't be played again.

There is more to it than this but this should give you enough to start editing your book which is a great start and you should see an improvement in results once you've started to tune the book like this.  If you do this after every few games it doesn't take too long but will greatly improve the book.

Hope this helps - good luck.
Parent - - By Zherkovv (***) Date 2009-02-14 09:50 Edited 2009-02-14 10:05
[deleted]
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-14 11:14

> One good advise: Keep away from this 'Italian81'  creature!  Do not trust him with his instant messenger chat proposal,
> if he has something to say he has to do it here like everybody els in this Rybka Forum.


Who are you to say what somebody can say when and where? Maybe Aaron can stay away from you. I have seen and read a lot of what Italian81 has said here on this forum and although sometimes he can be brash when talking about his or other peoples books, he has done nothing in my opinion to label him a "creature". If he wants to chat with him and offer him help then that is a very nice thing to do and he can do it with or without your permission.
Parent - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 15:00
Thank you, I agree with your post.  I should try to be a little more conservative.
Parent - - By Zherkovv (***) Date 2009-02-14 16:25
Permission? when and where? Aaron stays where he wants.
Just 'good advise'  PortCitySlim! Next time read my post with your best glasses.
Parent - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 16:48

> <SPAN class="htt">In Response to</SPAN> Zherkovv


Permission? when and where? Aaron stays where he wants.

>  Just 'good advise'  PortCitySlim! Next time read my post with your best glasses.


Please stop trolling
Parent - - By Italian81 (****) [us] Date 2009-02-14 14:59

> Dear chess friend Aaron87747,
>
> One good advise: Keep away from this 'Italian81'  creature!  Do not trust him with his instant messenger chat proposal,
> if he has something to say he has to do it here like everybody els in this Rybka Forum.


<IMG src="/mwf/mi_quote.gif" alt="Quote selected text" title="Quote selected text" class="qButton"/>

reported for trolling, please stop, thank you.
Parent - - By Zherkovv (***) Date 2009-02-14 17:29
One thing is for sure, reporting is good therapy, if you want i give you my IP-address i have yours anyway.
You can click, but you can't hide! LOL
Parent - By Aaron2chess4u (**) [us] Date 2009-02-15 01:52
"Then i told everyone to sit down and try it out..and i crushed..and i mean DEMOLISHED everyone...i was 1700 when i played them..and i because 2200+. so ur doing a vg job..."

Which book were you using??? And for all you moron buffoons, I trust Brandon. I have been using YIM for YEARS, and never had a problem with anyone trying to hack or get information from my computer. If someone were to hack my computer, I would laugh. Because really, I have nothing important on my computer that any of you would want.

As for posting books, I am currently working on a book with ONLY e4 openings. All the files together are 425MB..but once I delete draws and make into bin.book...I'm guessing it will be much less.

Best regards to all,
Aaron
- By chess_pr0 (**) [us] Date 2011-01-06 02:44
ok
i use fritz or chessbase 11

i go back over games i lost

i open my ctg book im using then select allow move adding .

then i find where i made a bad move and i hit infinite analysis and let it run for about 5-ten minutes finding best move..

then i go to move screen and after i find better move i click copy all to notation, then i go to edit and add null move and select  new main line in the box then hit ok

then do i go and find the move in the move box where the game moves were played and change the new move and make it main move by changing weight?..

im kind of lost on if im properly hand tuning my losses correctly or if im just wasting my time doing it wrong.?????
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Ctg making

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