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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Vytron Vs. PortCitySlim 0-1
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- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-06 09:37 Edited 2009-04-05 08:52
[Event "Vytron Vs. PortCitySlim III"]
[Site "Rybka Forum"]
[Date "2009.04.05"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Vytron"]
[Black "PortCitySlim"]
[ECO "B12"]
[Opening "Caro-Kann"]
[Variation "Advance, 4.Nf3 e6 5.Be2 Nd7"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O h6 7. Be3 Ne7 8.
Nbd2 Bh7 9. Rc1 Nf5 10. c4 Be7 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Nb3 Nxe3 13. fxe3 a5 14.
Bd3 Bxd3 15. Qxd3 a4 16. Nbd2 O-O 17. Nb1 Re8 18. Qf5 Bf8 19. Nc3 f6 20.
Nh4 Qe7 21. Ng6 Qe6 22. Nxf8 Qxf5 23. Rxf5 Rxf8 24. exf6 Nxf6 25. h3 Rfe8
26. Kf2 b5 27. Rf3 Re6 28. Ke1 b4 29. Ne2 a3 30. b3 g5 31. Ng3 Kh7 32. Kd2
h5 33. Kd3 Rae8 34. Re1 Rg8 35. Rc1 Kg6 36. Rf2 Rge8 37. Re1 h4 38. Nf1 Ne4
39. Rc2 g4 40. hxg4 Rf8 41. Nh2 Kg7 42. Rec1 Rg6 43. Re2 Nf2+ 44. Kc2 Rgf6
45. Kd2 R6f7 46. Kc2 h3 47. gxh3 Nxh3 48. Kd2 Nf2 49. Rg1 Ne4+ 50. Ke1 Rf2
51. Rg2 Rxg2 52. Rxg2 Nc3 {White Resigns} 0-1

OK Bobby! Let's have fun in this one!

Rules:

36 hours per move, clock starts as soon as your opponent posts his move with 72 hours of buffer. Vacation extension can be arranged mid-game if necessary. International Chess. I get white. Outside help not allowed. No other restrictions.

1.e4

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq e3 0 1


The clock will start running as soon as black moves, you have infinite time on this move but I hope you use a little less ;)
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2009-02-06 12:39
1. e4?? A game losing blunder. Better is 1. Kd0!! Tucking the king behind the queen and using it as a "guard" a la chinese chess. Some people (haters) criticize my brilliant ideas citing things like "oh, that's not a legal move", or "wow lab, there's no rank 0, you've gone completely sideways", and "you're obviously suffering from some sort of breakdown in rational thought, you should seriously consider professional help". I say these people just can't think "outside the board"!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-06 23:58
I think you just solved chess, after 1. Kd0!! Kd9!! a checkmate cannot happen inside the board, so no matter the rest of the moves, it's a draw!
Parent - - By thehuggybear [us] Date 2009-02-07 04:30
I would like to ask one question. Vytron what is your real chess rating and PortCitySlim same question to you as well? (USCF or FIDE) I don't care about that.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-07 04:36

> I would like to ask one question. Vytron what is your real chess rating and PortCitySlim same question to you as well? (USCF or FIDE) I don't care about that.


We are both Super Grandmasters ~2700+ :) If Vytron wants to answer differently he can. Who are you??
Parent - - By thehuggybear [us] Date 2009-02-07 04:59
just curiously because, i was wondering if it was a match of sub master player but very clearly not. So this will be a very good match then
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-07 06:51

> just curiously because, i was wondering if it was a match of sub master player but very clearly not. So this will be a very good match then


Well this is a correspondence match between two Centaur players, we are using computers and any other tools at our disposal to win. I was not being serious about my OTB playing strength it is just that there are a lot of wacko's on Rybka forum and I had no idea who your were. My OTB skill is not that good, I am not a titled player, and I know very little about Vytron's OTB skill. He would have to answer that for himself. :)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-07 08:21 Edited 2009-02-07 08:28

> My OTB skill is not that good, I am not a titled player


I can say about the same, I just posted my OTB rating at other topic, but this game will be about who can juggle chess engines better :)
Parent - - By thehuggybear [us] Date 2009-02-07 08:38
Well I can very well under you Port, Im a little new to the forum. But anyway best of luck to you. Its always a up hill battle to play as black in there very long time controls. Good solid choice but the way on 1. c6
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2009-03-22 07:46
Bump (some of the active discussion to the second page). What idiot came up with the idea that the last page shouldn't be the last min(MAX_POSTS, posts_in_thread(tid)) posts?
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-07 04:34
Ahh yes, almost in time. Buddy I have been busting my $$$$$'s off trying to get my rig back up and running. Last week I bought a new WD Caviar Black Hard drive and a Q9650 CPU. Well so far the Hard Drive is the only thing working so for the next few day I will be using my Q6700 at 3.2ghz until my new Q9650 shows up and then Ill be using it at whatever speed I can get out of it. As for this move, I actually have not had anytime to think about it and it might be the most important of the game. I doubt I will play a Sicilian that is booked out to a draw, but I might still play a Sicilian :) Also thinking about the French and Caro Kahn, but I will most definitely not play the Spanish, since we just finished a game with it and two had I not opted for the scotch last time we played 1.e5 e5. Give me a bit here, maybe I can think of something tonight:)
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-07 07:23
1..c6

I finally decided to opt for the CK. :)

Information that has changed since our last match (I do not want any secrets on my part) :)In this match Vytron you will be playing a slightly stronger opponent then last time and I do not think that the CK is a sub optimal move, it does provide many chances for me to leave book sooner then by playing a Sicilian/Spanish. Last time you played against 100% Rybka 3 used solely in the CB GUI which is quite possible the slowest GUI out. This time around I will use more then just Rybka including new Toga's and Zappa for analysis, plus I will do a lot of analysis in the Arena GUI, which gives me at least a 15% speed increase. As I mentioned I have upgraded hardware to a Q9650 but had to send it back for replacement, so for about 10 days I will still be using the Q6700 and my dual core laptop. I have also upgraded to a larger/faster WD6401AALS hard drive which I will use for a boot drive and I am installing a 64gb solid state drive for tablebases. If I can manage to get my Q9650 running at 4.2ghz(which is wholeheartedly my goal) I should be increasing my average Rybka3 kn/s from about 250 to 450-500.

So if my hardware is my advantage then I need to state what I think is Vytron's advantage. #1. Vytron has perfected a search technique that is undoubtedly one of the best among Centaur players today. #2. Vytron's GUI knowledge and ability to use different GUI's including Aquarium and IDEA is far beyond mine, in fact I never have learned to use Aquarium but I do have the last updated version. #3. Vytron will most definitely have more time to devote, I will have to upgrade/overclock hardware shortly into the match, sometimes achieving rock solid stability takes me several days, this is be huge in his advantage and during this time I will more and likely have to do any analysis on a laptop. I also work a full time job and have 2 young children under the age of 4, which do thier best to drive me unholy insane :)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-07 08:34
Heh, I hope I can live to my expectations

Since this is no longer a practice game and we're seriously going for it I'm not going to reveal much about my approach for this game, I'll only say that I'm still running on 1CPU 32bits, so don't worry.

I'm not going for anything unusual yet and will play:

2.d4

PS - Yes, I was ready for a full Sicilian battle and I don't think it has been solved to a draw yet, but that'll have to wait for another day.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-07 09:02

> Since this is no longer a practice game and we're seriously going for it


Does this mean that you will no longer keep me up to date with the coolest new free engine releases, lol?:)  In the past we have stayed online during the opening firing moves back and forth very quickly, this time even though some of my next moves are obvious I will take a bit more time for two reasons. One is that I need to make sure I know what position I am heading into, I can not blindly follow the mainline of the book if it takes me into a position where my hardware advantage becomes obsolete and the second is that I need to make sure I time the leaving opening book move with the time that I get my new processor for my quad, otherwise I will be left defenseless for a few days.  For now I think it is safe to at least make my next move, but probably the last for today.

2..d5 Obviously this is the CK so nothing fancy here....

Edit: Also, Vytron could you keep the FEN updated at the top of this page during the game?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-07 09:39
Oh, well, there's a new Cyclone and a new Grapefruit < - I hope this sentence doesn't lose me the game :-D

Anyway, take your time, we didn't start this game earlier because I wanted you to play at full strength, so don't rush.

3.e5

Nothing fancy either.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5*

rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3pP3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - 0 3


I feel more confortable posting the game and position over and over, I hope you don't mind.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-08 10:50
3...Bf5
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) [ch] Date 2009-02-08 21:33
Good luck guys !

Very interesting opening.

Hope both of you will play full strengh and to the end of the game !

regards
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-09 12:03

> Very interesting opening.


Just a plain jane Caro-Kahn for now, we will see if we can mix it up a few moves later. Maybe the best opening choice for me considering the strengths and weaknesses of my opponent, the French would have been good too but I hate the French :)

> Hope both of you will play full strengh and to the end of the game !


I plan on it, for once I would like to see one of these games not end 1/2-1/2.
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) [ch] Date 2009-02-09 13:56
Keep the moves to what you think is the best variations.

Do me the favor of not playing sub lines just trying to mix things. If you do so, you will end up in a draw or lost game.

regards
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-09 21:23

> Keep the moves to what you think is the best variations.
>
> Do me the favor of not playing sub lines just trying to mix things. If you do so, you will end up in a draw or lost game.


Remember, no outside help is allowed, PLEASE. This might not be considered outside help since you did not post analysis or suggest a certain move but if Vytron thinks it is then please no more "tips" - Thanks :)
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2009-02-08 22:47
In my online blitz games, I usually go 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxd4 Bf5 5.Qe2?!. You wouldn't believe how often this trap works (every time it works compensates a dozen times when it didn't). :-)

rn1qkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/5b2/3PN3/8/PPP1QPPP/R1B1KBNR b KQkq - 0 5


5...Nd7 6.Nd6#

[Event "Rated game, 5m + 5s"]
[Site "Main Playing Hall"]
[Date "2009.02.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "me"]
[Black "N.N."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B18"]
[BlackElo "1615"]
[PlyCount "11"]
[TimeControl "300+5"]

1. e4 {3} c6 {5} 2. d4 {2} d5 {2} 3. Nc3 {2} dxe4 {2} 4. Nxe4 {1} Bf5 {1} 5.
Qe2 {2} Nd7 {6} 6. Nd6# {(Lag: Av=0.56s, max=1.5s) 2} 1-0
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-09 00:27
Nice, I'm always looking at such traps to play, as long as I'm in a playable position when they don't work ;)
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2009-02-08 22:29
now this is the proper thread to play your games,i will watch with interest.i will be very impressed if you can hold the game once out of book.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-09 00:28

> this is the proper thread


Of course that's a matter of opinion.
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-09 08:44

> i will be very impressed if you can hold the game once out of book.


Who are you talking to, me or Vytron? My bet is that there is a good chance this game will end in a draw, myself and Vytron make the perfect match-up when playing a game. It is me with powerful hardware vs Vytron with incredible talent, like a David and Goliath match-up and remember how that ended? If you were talking to Vytron then you might need to rethink how much of an advantage you give hardware, because if you think for one second that just because he has only 1CPU 32bit that he will definitely lose is a huge overstatement and I would love to see you challenge him 1v1 after this game. You will learn that your octal that you spent thousands on means absolutely nothing without a skilled driver behind the wheel, I am not saying you are not skilled but I think Vytron has enough talent to hold you to a draw at least 8 out of ten games. If you were talking to me then you might be right, I feel like I am slightly over matched but I think I can draw if I need to. You can give Jeff Gordon a golf cart and somebody who cant drive a stick shift a Porsche and Jeff Gordon will beat them in a race anytime :)
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-09 11:55 Edited 2009-02-09 11:59

>It is me with powerful hardware vs Vytron with incredible talent, like a David and Goliath match-up and remember how that ended?


Also by looking at CCRL's main page it shows Rybka3 32bit- 3088 vs Rybka 3 64bit 4CPU- 3223 for a difference of 135 elo. Once you add in Vytron's talent level that elo difference becomes pretty much zero. :)

>I am not saying you are not skilled but I think Vytron has enough talent to hold you to a draw at least 8 out of ten games


I meant to say "hold you to a draw or better" :) Meaning the game would look more like 5/5 then you might think.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2009-02-09 22:32
i was replying to Vytron,and stand by what i said,i agree with most of what you say,but i think you underestimate yourself as a player.your advantage is greater than CCRLs bare figures which are based on a 2.4 Ghz comp.it will be interesting to see how the game develops,of course the longer time control helps Vytron,but i speak from the experience of trying to hold the Hiarcs forum in the Turbojuice match.that match was on a knife edge most of the time.Vytron has chosen an interesting variation of the Caro-Kann which leads to creative play and i will follow your game with interest.naturally i will make no comments on the game and wish you both the best and expect you will at least contribute to opening theory.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-10 00:57
Or perhaps PortCitySlim is overestimating me. We will know if I lose quickly once out of book, I just had a dream in where I played into a lost book variation without realizing it and the score was -2.03 the very next move!

I'll try my best on this game, mainly to not disappoint Bobby (this is not a Scotch, I don't have much experience in the Caro-Kahn.)
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-10 07:16

> i was replying to Vytron,and stand by what i said,i agree with most of what you say,but i think you underestimate yourself as a player.your advantage is greater than CCRLs bare figures


Well, my thing is that I have always tried to stay wise and follow the "Bigger they are the harder they fall" theory. I respect Vytron's talent and I would not dare disrespect him by bragging about my hardware and guaranteeing a win based on it alone. If I win it will require me doing a lot more then just running infinite AN on positions and posting the result.

> i will follow your game with interest.naturally i will make no comments on the game and wish you both the best and expect you will at least contribute to opening theory.


Thanks! I am glad people are interested in the result. I wanted to organize a RR tournament here in the forum for all players interested, it would be a forum 1v1 tournament with set rules like in the bigger CC sites. One day maybe :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-10 09:50
By the way, what do you think about playing chess variants on the future at correspondence time controls? The catch is in that these chess variants engines are on their infancy, so the human factor takes precedence and it would be really interesting. Personally I think that the Crazyhouse chess variant is more fun than chess (the opening never ends!) and it would be games in where Rybka 3 doesn't have the right answer 90% of the time :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-09 00:32
4.Nf3

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 *

rn1qkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3pPb2/3P4/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 0 1
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-09 11:19
4..e6
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-10 01:02
5. Be2

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2
*

rn1qkbnr/pp3ppp/2p1p3/3pPb2/3P4/5N2/PPP1BPPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 5
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-10 11:57
5...Nd7
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-10 14:34
6.0-0

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O*

r2qkbnr/pp1n1ppp/2p1p3/3pPb2/3P4/5N2/PPP1BPPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 6
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-11 23:11
6...h6
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-12 12:28
7. Be3

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O h6 7. Be3*

r2qkbnr/pp1n1pp1/2p1p2p/3pPb2/3P4/4BN2/PPP1BPPP/RN1Q1RK1 b kq - 0 7
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-02-12 20:07
You guys are sure burning up the clock...regards  :-)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-13 00:46
I works when each have 72 hours for the game and an increment of 36 hours :) (not accumulative.)
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-13 04:33

> You guys are sure burning up the clock...regards


I am in the middle of a custom data transfer. My old windows had a lot of data corruption problems so I got a better storage set up to start all over with. I have had to reinstall my OS and programs then move all my data folders including about 90gig of tablebases from my old hard drive to my new one and set up for a new SSD HD. I also am in the middle of upgrading from 65nm quad to a 45nm quad, so I am taking my time since I am not ready to do heavy analysis yet. I should be ready early to middle of next week and I want to make sure I stay in book until then... :)
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-13 04:39
7...Ne7  :) Maybe the first move I had to do some analysis on combined with my books/database info. At first I really wanted to play something else but it ended up leading into a position I thought was less favorable.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-13 14:40
8.Nbd2

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O h6 7. Be3 Ne7 8.
Nbd2*

r2qkb1r/pp1nnpp1/2p1p2p/3pPb2/3P4/4BN2/PPPNBPPP/R2Q1RK1 b kq - 0 8


As for me, it's Friday the 13th, if I told you what I'm doing I'd have to kill you :-D

Jason (not turbo) sends his regards,
Uly
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-13 22:44
8...Bh7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-14 13:12
9.Rc1

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O h6 7. Be3 Ne7 8.
Nbd2 Bh7 9. Rc1*

r2qkb1r/pp1nnppb/2p1p2p/3pP3/3P4/4BN2/PPPNBPPP/2RQ1RK1 b kq - 0 9


Heh, I think we were so afraid of each other that we got into some super safe variation, let's see if something happens next.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2009-02-14 17:45
This is very good position for black to have emerged from opening. There's no way white can have more than 0.05-0.15 evaluations.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-02-15 01:14 Edited 2009-02-15 01:17

> There's no way white can have more than 0.05-0.15 evaluations.


By Rybka 3 evaluation :)

Anyway, I don't play much the Caro-Kann and I don't understand why would white play c3 (c4 is eventually pushed so that's a loss of tempo) or a4 (Rybka even suggests a4-a5 in some variations) or even Nc3 (that Knight blocks the c pawn and it's not going anywhere), so I've stickied to positions I fully understand, even if that means giving away centi-pawns all over the place.
Parent - By Bouddha (****) [ch] Date 2009-02-15 08:26
+1, I fully understand and approve your way of thinking.

But I would as said maybe try some "slower" systems with c3.

Also, as you said, the a4, a5 if black does 0-0-0 is interesting.

regards
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-15 12:47

> By Rybka 3 evaluation


Yes, Rybka gives the best eval for black. other engines like Zappa/Grapefruit/Togas etc score white a bit better, we will see which engine gets this one right :)
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-14 20:21 Edited 2009-02-14 20:37

> Heh, I think we were so afraid of each other that we got into some super safe variation, let's see if something happens next.


According to my books mostly everything that was played was top move/mainline except maybe 7.Be3(Still a book move though). Now I think I might be out of book a bit sooner then I wanted to be, I need to check.
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-02-15 12:45
9...Nf5
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Vytron Vs. PortCitySlim 0-1
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