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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Chess / Flying Saucers is the 5th Freestyle Champion
- - By CumnorChessClub (***) Date 2007-03-25 22:27
Congratulations to Flying Saucers, Very impressive!!

see here for all Finals games http://www.freewebs.com/freestyle-chess/index.htm and click the Live freestyle link
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-03-26 07:08
Very impressive!!

I´m not so impressed! Flying Saucers is the one-eyed among the blind. Take the two last away, there are only 2 wins (Rodo and Zacks) with black. And the win against Rodo I don´t understand. Rodo was in book and played such a mess in 24. If Flying Saucers can show that he was above, before Rodo plays 24. Qe3? (instead of Qg2!) I will be quiet. But also, the other members don´t convince. Next time, when an unknown engine plays in the tournement and will be better than Rybka, she will win.
Imagaging this scenario: Vas don´t published his engine in 12/2005 and worked hard on MP. He will win every freestyle in 2006 and 2007 with an good opening book. But now we (all humans!) believe, we are better than Vas, because we have buyed his engine. But chess is an complex game. We only puzzled a bit in the opening (and use the engine therefore!!) and feel us as kings. But where is the endgame play of the zentaur, who shows they are above the engines? I don´t recognized yet in the freestyle.
Parent - - By CumnorChessClub (***) Date 2007-03-26 12:12
Hi Roland,
             According to my own Databases 24.Qg2 is by far the most popular move and also the most successful for White, but that does not mean it is the best move, I am sure Black has improvements in this line. Now either Rodo wanted to avoid this line and played 24.Qe3, which also has been successful for White but nowhere near played as much as 24.Qg2 or his book was not edited properly to make 24.Qg2 the main move. Now that is what you call poor preperation! on Rodo's part.

As for the game 24.Qe3 was not the move that lost him the game in my opinion, it was maybe move 33.Rf3, 33.Ne2!? looks better to me and the move that really cost him the game was 37.Kd2?, surely 37.Rxf6! was the best try.

As for me saying "really impressive", Well Flying Saucers record speaks for its self, from the begining of the 4th Freestyle tournament to Him/Them ? winning the 5th Freestyle tournament is what has impressed me.

Anyhow that's my own opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.

 
Parent - By Alkelele (****) Date 2007-03-26 15:50

>Now either Rodo wanted to avoid this line and played 24.Qe3, which also has been successful for White but nowhere near played as much as 24.Qg2 or his book was not edited properly to make 24.Qg2 the main move. Now that is what you call poor preperation! on Rodo's part.


Actually, Rodo played as centaur in this game, and not as pure engine.

>As for the game 24.Qe3 was not the move that lost him the game in my opinion, it was maybe move 33.Rf3, 33.Ne2!? looks better to me and the move that really cost him the game was 37.Kd2?, surely 37.Rxf6! was the best try.


Well, Rodo played a clearly critical line to start with. 26.Bc3 is not so easy to find, and a serious try for white to gain an edge. I wonder if he had this move analysed in advance. Note, 24...Kh8 was a novelty, at least to my knowledge, but I guess several people knew that this was a critical try for black to save the game (24...Bd8 has been found to be probably not quite good enough). It was played 3 times in this final. The shocker of the game was 26...Rxb5!?!!, an incredible idea of mine that I analysed some months ago. No engine will find it or like it, but...

Yes, 33.Rf3 was not best, and white is probably already close to lost after 34.Rff1. Note, 37.Rxf6 is not much better than 37.Kd2, if any. White just can't untangle and stop black's attack at this point.

I had the first 34 out of 37 moves of the game in my preparation. I played this opening in the first game, wanting exactly to get the position after 26...Rxb5 on the board. Perhaps this idea is not really relevant anymore, as in the following two 24...Kh8 games in the final, black had a hard time against 25.Rh3 instead of 25.Bb5 (which looks like another piece of excellent preparation from team Hercules01 and co.). 

>As for me saying "really impressive", Well Flying Saucers record speaks for its self, from the begining of the 4th Freestyle tournament to Him/Them ? winning the 5th Freestyle tournament is what has impressed me.


Thanks :-) It is no secret that I play these games as a one-man team. Then there are some woman helpers, namely Rybka and my girlfriend :-)

I hope you enjoyed watching the final, and playing in the preliminary. I humbly applaud you for you very fine efforts to popularize these Freestyle events and provide a "one-place-to-go" web-site with all relevant information :-)
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2007-03-26 16:04

>Take the two last away, there are only 2 wins (Rodo and Zacks) with black.


You take Engineer away, and you take a FIDE Elo of 2585 + a corr. chess GM away. Take Hercules01 away, and you take a team of opening book experts using a 16-core Intel away. I wonder how they qualified for the final if they were such easy push-overs.

>And the win against Rodo I don´t understand. Rodo was in book and played such a mess in 24. If Flying Saucers can show that he was above, before Rodo plays 24. Qe3? (instead of Qg2!) I will be quiet.


Roland, I am afraid that one cannot learn the truth about these lines by looking at database statistics. Btw, only the blind would not have given Shirov-van Wely from this year's Corus some interest. I was very annoyed when van-Wely indicated in that game + post mortem analysis why 24.Qg2 is not any good.

> But where is the endgame play of the zentaur, who shows they are above the engines? I don´t recognized yet in the freestyle.


In game vs. ZackS, I took a deep think at move 45, spending 12-13 minutes. There, I found winning line with 58...Rf1! and 59...f5. Note, 58...Rf1 was my own suggestion, Rybka won't find it very soon on her own. Also, check out Engineer's endgame wins in the prelim play-offs. Ah, but I forgot, we must take him away from the equation. Clearly, 10 people qualifying out of 130 were just Rybka patzers with no skill whatsoever ;-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-26 22:56
As a member of the team most standing to benefit from diminishing Dagh's achievement, let me simply say that Dagh is BONA FIDE and deserves EVERY BIT of credit as Freestyle Champion.  My God, the man worked his ass off during those three days and after a mental, emotional and physical ordeal there he is, on top of the list, with not the slightest controversy in the outcome.  You guys who haven't played at the very top level cannot possibly know what it is like to withstand such pressure for nine straight hours, three consecutive days.  Every move could have been a championship-ending disaster; not one of his opponents was a pushover.

Just the same...I self-nominate Engineer-Cato the Younger for Brilliancy Prize.  What a beautiful game!

[Event "5th Frestyle Final, 9th round"]
[Site "playchess.com #093617"]
[Date "2007.03.25"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Engineer"]
[Black "Cato the Younger"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B67"]
[WhiteElo "2446"]
[BlackElo "2504"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2007.03.25"]
[EventType "match (rapid)"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 d6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nf6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8.
O-O-O Bd7 9. f3 Qc7 10. Kb1 Be7 11. h4 Nxd4 12. Qxd4 b5 13. g4 O-O 14. Qd2 b4
15. Ne2 Rfc8 16. Be3 d5 17. e5 Ne8 18. Nd4 Bc5 19. f4 a5 20. g5 a4 21. h5 b3
22. c3 a3 23. Nxb3 Bxe3 24. Qxe3 Ba4 25. Bd3 axb2 26. Qd4 Bxb3 27. axb3 Ra3 28.
Kxb2 Qa5 29. Bb1 Rb8 30. b4 Qa4 31. Kc1 Rc8 32. Kd2 Rc4 33. Qd3 Qc6 34. Rh3 d4
35. Qf3 dxc3+ 36. Ke2 Qa4 37. Bxh7+ Kh8 38. Rc1 Ra2+ 39. Ke1 Rxb4 40. Bb1 Ra1
41. Qd3 Rbxb1 42. Rxb1 c2 0-1

Has anyone ever seen a computer reach a position like the one after 22...a3!

Finally, let me belatedly note that while I was on the team, the real hero of the Cato team was Anson Williams of London, also known as Intagrand.  He played the moves.  All I did was nervously smoke cigars in my Virginia rat-nest and occasionally shout out "move!  move goddammit!!" when we were down to ten seconds or less.
Parent - - By Equidistance (**) Date 2007-03-27 18:39
Roland Rösler, you are obviously not much in the picture and obviously not much theoretically experienced... (giving 24.Qe3 a question mark, and 24.Qg2 an exclamation mark). Yet I'm not going to share any insights with you..

Anyway. As for centaur endgames, check our win over Wizard, or an endgame with black against Rodo. No machine ever will find the plan like Kg2-h4-Kh3 (Wizard of Os) or Nxc4 (Rodo) piece sacrifice leading to an endgame "pawn mass vs a piece more". Only fantastic defence by Rodo saved him half point. These are Freestyle chess I really like.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-27 22:28
"Yet I'm not going to share any insights with you..."

A man right after my heart!  It's true, isn't it?  We're all adversaries, combatants, perennial arch-rivals!  See you in the the next tournament, I hope! 
Parent - By revengeska (**) Date 2007-03-28 15:00
Wow, there really are some top notch freestylers here:)

Anyone know when the freestyle rating list is going to be updated?
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Chess / Flying Saucers is the 5th Freestyle Champion

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