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- - By Jessica (**) Date 2007-03-14 12:22
Vas can you please tell us if the testing of Rybka 2.4 has started because we have seen 2 people using it on playchess. 
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-03-14 13:41
Those are fakes. :)

Vas
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-14 13:54
Where can I purchase the fake 2.4 version?
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-03-14 14:01
From Chessbase :)

Vas
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-03-15 02:44
I wonder what their distribution is like?
Parent - - By Richard Stickles (*) Date 2007-03-20 11:49
And you wonder why i have a problem with rybka?
For your information "Chessbase" doesn't sell second rate engines" nor will we ever sell second rate engines...Also for your info i have been deleting all users using this "fake" rybka 2.4 . Not that i have to , but i dislike piracy and cloners.. so keep your silly comments to yourself..
Vasik i think it's time you started to act like a mature programer and not a 13 year old kid with a new toy, since you started programing rybka engine you have been nothing but a pompass ass with his head stuck very high ,Someone will knock you down one day and you will be no more then a memory of the past..The engine world is a small comunity of well know and respected people, your making it real hard for people to respect you with alot of your actions..
It's not hard for everyone to get along, but when you act like you thinking your better then everyone because you have right now the current strongest Blitz engine, trust me one day this will end , then who will you be?

Regards
Richard Stickles
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 12:44
Before anyone responds to this, let me just point out that we know Richard and we would not have him any other way.  What a character!  Another thing...he lives up in Winnepeg, where this winter it got to -45C.  It has been a long winter and I suspect he's got cabin fever.  LOL!
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-03-20 13:28
Richard Stickles wrote :

"For your information "Chessbase" doesn't sell second rate engines" nor will we ever sell second rate engines..."

Richard , have you been smoking marijuana???

best ,
sam
Parent - - By Jessica (**) Date 2007-03-20 17:29
WOW!!!! Richard is very upset as I was going through all my Rybka today I started to notice one thing that Rybka has continued to produce with each one....A buggy Rybka I don't think that there has ever been a NON BUGGED RYBKA or I could be wrong but each Rybka has it's bugs that seem to go onto the next rybka or get corrected but creating other bugs for new rybka dang....Will there ever be a BUG free RYBKA?  Just a thought!!!
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-03-20 18:22
Jessica wrote :

"WOW!!!! Richard is very upset as I was going through all my Rybka today I started to notice one thing that Rybka has continued to produce with each one....A buggy Rybka I don't think that there has ever been a NON BUGGED RYBKA or I could be wrong but each Rybka has it's bugs that seem to go onto the next rybka or get corrected but creating other bugs for new rybka dang....Will there ever be a BUG free RYBKA?  Just a thought!!!"

I can't agree with that any more. But , there is not one single chess engine that publicly exists that is "bug-free". In fact , you might go so far as to say that Rybka is the one chess engine with fewer bugs. Besides the little fish and Shredder , there aren't any engines with an endgame.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 19:41
Actually Jessica isn't far off the mark this time.  Richard is torqued because Chessbase (read: Richard personally) has served as an unpaid and unrecognized customer service rep for Rybka for over a  year now.  I don't know all the technical details, but every time Rybka has a bug, or a GUI incompatibility problem, he gets hammered with dozens of people asking good-faith questions or blaming Chessbase or him personally.  He's fed up!  Then compounding the problem is what he perceives to be Vasik having an attitude problem when interacting with Chessbase.  And I would add that he's not the only guy at Chessbase who is p.o'ed about carrying Rybka's water and dealing with a not-always-cordial Vasik.  And finally there can be no denying that they are privately annoyed because Rybka is ranked #1 despite their very best efforts to knock him down a peg.  In their position, who wouldn't be?  So you see there are different things, technical, personal and business-related, that all irritate the Chessbase hierarchy (not just Richard).

Now of course that is only one side of the story and I am very sure Vasik could lay into Chessbase with all sorts of convincing counterallegations.  But that's how it goes with any dispute; rarely is one side totally in the right and the other without a shred of merit to their complaints.

My personal view is that whoever authors the best engine deserves every bit of credit.  At least in that department it is possible to objectively and dispassionately rank who's #1 and #2.  If Chessbase is pissed because Rybka is on top, tough luck.  The solution is to build a better engine and prove it is better!

But as for all the rest...it sure seems to me that Rybka gets for free a terrific forum in which to display its prowess: the Playchess Engine room.  In exchange for that privilege you would think Vasik would be on very good professional terms with Chessbase and make every effort to pre-empt or swiftly resolve any technical problems.  And on the other side you would think Chessbase and its representatives would exercise self-restraint and keep private feuds private; to do otherwise diminishes Chessbase and hurts the hobby.
Parent - By Jessica (**) Date 2007-03-20 20:16
Finally Hernandez and i agree =-)  As I said before when will we get what we paid for?  A good engine that is bug free!!!  I'm not trying to be mean just stating facts EVERY RYBKA has had a bug that seems to either continue to the next serious or create another bug!!!  Vas PLEASE correct this! 
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 20:54
Sam,

Marijuana does not evince hostility. That is why it is not legalized. The armed forces, if they smoked jeeba, would be sitting around thinking pleasantries. If Mr. Stickles is smoking anything it would be STP (formaldehyde).

regards

sidserious
Parent - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-03-20 13:38
Ruchard Stickles wrote:
"you have right now the current strongest Blitz engine"

If ChessBase thinks that Fritz will beat Rybka at tournament time controls, let them issue a challenge for a match
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-03-20 15:40

>For your information "Chessbase" doesn't sell second rate engines"


????
Rybka is second rate engine?

>because you have right now the current strongest Blitz engine.


????
You are dropping some very clever insinuations, that may lead people to believe some things that are completely incorrect!
For example someone who doesn't know the whole situation may think, if he reads the above statement, that Rybka is the strongest only in blitz time controls. Of course this can't be more inaccurate! Rybka is much stronger in all time controls!
Yet, no one can accuse you of perverting the truth in that statement since you didn't say anything wrong. Really clever. :-)
Yet these methods are hypocritical....

>trust me one day this will end , then who will you be?


What is this again? Who will he be, who will you be, who will I be? What pointless nonsense is all these?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 16:12
I guess he's just jealous :)
Parent - - By Debaser (***) Date 2007-03-20 16:57
Hi F.Kling

I do not know if this is the proper thread but, do you know why Vas chose Convekta instead of Chessbase.

Was it a question of money? Sometime ago I thought It would be because Chessbase did not let him be part of the gui development. But I think Vas is not developing Rybka 3 gui, "just" the engine, so this must not be the reason ;)
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 18:44
Sorry, I don't know any details, you have to ask Vas :)
Parent - By Debaser (***) Date 2007-03-20 19:49
You are very diplomatic :)

OK, Vas please, can you give any details?
Parent - By Henrik Dinesen (***) Date 2007-03-21 08:22
Well, I'm quite confident that ChessBase wouldn't relaese a UCI engine. All their engines released to date, is in their own format. And Vas has all the time insisted on Rybka as UCI.
Parent - By stvs (***) Date 2007-03-20 16:35

>Vasik i think it's time you started to act like a mature programer and not a 13 year old kid with a new toy, since you started programing rybka engine you have been nothing but a pompass ass with his head stuck very high.


i wonder how polite is this hatejealous guy!!
also cheap propaganda.
Parent - - By Jim Walker (***) Date 2007-03-20 16:55
Richard, NOBODY cares if you have a problem with Rybka.  Most people do care when you let your "problem with Rybka" spill over into your control of other issues.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 17:37
I really think someone ought to hire the distinguished Silvio Danailov to arbitrate this commercial rivalry.

It really is a shame things are so icy between the two camps.  It is understandable, on a business level, that perennial rivals such as Coke and Pepsi should not be on the most cordial terms.  But you would think people on both sides would behave professionally and pay each other every possible courtesy even while privately wishing they were dead and doing everything they could within the law to bring it about.

If you read the complaints of both sides you get the impression that half of the problem consists of real grievances and half of it is gut-level antipathy.  I don't think the latter issue can be bridged, personally.  But I do wish Matthias and Vasik had each other's cell phone numbers and worked disputes out like a couple of mafia capos minus the gunplay.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 21:10
Nelson,

Its not really understandable from a business standpoint since both Chessbase and Vas would have been better served by maintaining a cordial relationship. Its very likely that the Chessbase people underestimated Rybka during the initial negotiations. Maybe after getting a better assessment of Rybka's strength and endurance and seeing its effect on their bottom line, they would be willing to make Vas an offer he couldn't refuse (sorry, I couldn't resist the Mafia tie-in :-) ). So Chessbase is missing out on having the best chess engine and maybe Vas is missing out on the chance to have a finantial interest in sponsored Rybka vs top grandmaster matches. This looks to me like a lose-lose proposition.

In any event, its never smart to burn your bridges behind you. Today's competitors are frequently tomorrow's collaborators. Rybka is the strongest chess engine and Chessbase is the most popular chess site. Even if they couldn't come to terms at the beginning, it shouldn't be completely inconcievable that someday these two entities would be working together...

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-03-21 16:50
Actually, everything is fine between me and the Chessbase guys. I've met Frederic and talked with Matthias and there isn't anything dramatically wrong with either of them. :) Seriously, I can't imagine where all this stuff is coming from ..

Vas
Parent - By Henrik Dinesen (***) Date 2007-03-21 19:14
.> Seriously, I can't imagine where all this stuff is coming from ..

Lack of knowledge and romours. You shouldn't be suprised.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-03-21 19:16
Well, it came from me.  But I didn't make it up.  I refer you to the original Stickles post--connect the dots!  He is not speaking for CB in any official capacity but I don't think he'd initiate a one-man commando raid unless he felt his views were unofficially in alignment with Hamburg's.  But if that premise is wrong and Richard DID call you a "pompous ass" completely on his own initiative then, well...too funny. 

Imagine a whole city populated with computer chess enthusiasts...can you imagine a greater state of anarchy?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-03-21 19:31
Chess enthusiasts of all stripes are a dysfunctional group. Nothing else even comes close.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-03-21 19:42
Ok, but if Frederic says anything about you sleeping with the fishes, he's probably not talking about Rybka. :-)
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 20:32 Edited 2007-03-20 20:42
Mr. Stickles,

I can greatly appreciate the effusion of an overweening personality even if it is, at the very least, clad in somekind of logical nicety. Ultimately, Mr. Stickles, you are reduced to nothing less than a sciolistic smatterer. After all! What are your claims?

Regards,

Sidserious

P.S Mr. Stickles, the redundancy is intentional!!!
Parent - By JohnL (***) Date 2007-03-20 20:42
Is this a joke?

As far as I am concerned Vas has proved IRL that he is better than anybody else who has seriously tried chess programming. So lets conclude he has some bragging rights.

And reading this forum he seems to have no problems treating people equally and with normal respect.

So why don't you go and fix the playchess bugs instead Richard, seems like some refactoring challenges there.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-03-20 21:23
Mr. Stickles,

I want to apologies for my previous remarks. I think it is very unfortunate that you need be provocative to elicit attention. If the only attention you are getting is through the expression of negativity-you must be a very lonely person.

If you suffer from depression, I would encourage you to get a pet (preferably a dog) they are capable of  expressing love freely and openly. However, if you are prone to ugly uncontrollable outburst of anger-go get help before you get a dog. I consider dogs-if treated with understanding and love, to be in their innocents close to God.

sidserious.

P.S.Mr. Stickless,( may I call you Richard?) repeat after me, " I am not Chessbase! I am more than that! I am a fully capable person worthy of being loved." 
Parent - By Juergen Faas (**) Date 2007-03-21 18:36
Richard, I´d be glad if all programmers would act as "immature" as Vas. Openly talking about their projects and posting witty comments. But I like Frans Morsch anyway, really nice guy.

Jürgen
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2007-03-21 23:27
Stickles' attitude is typical of losers. The Chessbase database is facing a serious challenge from CA, especially when CA gets Rybka.
The CB engines are inferior by a large margin to Rybka. Stickles' extreme sensitivity to an amusing comment by Vas, shows one thing only: that at least one CB groupie is feeling the heat and can't take it.

  But Stickles is in the wrong place. I don't mean this forum, which belongs to Vas and the users of Rybka. I mean the chess community. If Stickles doesn't learn to be polite, especially to his superiors, there will be no room for him anywhere in the chess world.

Vas, please block Stickles from this forum. He is an ignorant ass, whose language has violated the terms of use of the forum. We don't want to read his garbage any more.
                                                    Charles Anthony (CMA)
Parent - - By ChessMate (***) Date 2008-10-26 06:27 Edited 2008-10-26 06:47

> And you wonder why i have a problem with rybka?
> For your information "Chessbase" doesn't sell second rate engines" nor will we ever sell second rate engines...Also for your info i have been deleting all users using this "fake" rybka 2.4 . Not that i have to , but i dislike piracy and cloners.. so keep your silly comments to yourself..
> Vasik i think it's time you started to act like a mature programer and not a 13 year old kid with a new toy, since you started programing rybka engine you have been nothing but a pompass ass with his head stuck very high ,Someone will knock you down one day and you will be no more then a memory of the past..The engine world is a small comunity of well know and respected people, your making it real hard for people to respect you with alot of your actions..
> It's not hard for everyone to get along, but when you act like you thinking your better then everyone because you have right now the current strongest Blitz engine, trust me one day this will end , then who will you be?
>
> Regards
> Richard Stickles


Where are You  now a days , " Great  TD Richard Stickles "?

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4772
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4793
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4902

Have u ordered any ???

( Well , i just come to this  thread accidently and just want to tell this guy that this is what we call " Checkmate # " )
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2008-10-26 08:10
Rybka 2.4 users still get the same treatment.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-10-26 14:15
Ahh, the great engine Rybka 2.4!!  Where can I download this engine?! :-)
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-10-26 14:18
Ahh, this brings back old memories from when (and even before) I was new to the forum, but read many of the posts.  Going back, in reality, most of the posts involving Richard Stickles and Michael Waesch, and Michael Waesch and Sidserious should be moved to the Flip Side.  Can this still be done?!  That would be quite entertaining not only to move these things over a year and a half later, but also to gather together these threads that the new members have never seen and display them at the top of The Flip Side for everyone's entertainment.  Perhaps they should even be stickied!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-10-26 18:33
Ok, suggest 1 thread and I'll do it :)
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-03-15 01:26
I think I saw them on the e-donkey network when all of us were still waiting for the release of 2.3.1beta
Parent - - By FWCC (***) Date 2007-03-17 00:22
Come now Jessica you know they are fakes.Vas I heard there will be a delay in the release of 2.3.2 my thing is just take your time.You have developed a truly remarkable product,keep up the good work.I only request that you have a team to put 2.3.2 through a rigorous test before the release and I know we are in for a treat.Will some of the lessons learned from the Ehlvest match be added to the mix?Take care,

FWCC(Future World Chess Champion)
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-03-18 21:10
Hi,

it's still not 100% clear if there will be algorithm changes in 2.3.2. So far, there are none, only bug fixes.

Vas
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-03-19 14:17
Vas,

Save the algorithm changes for Rybka 3.
Parent - - By Kapaun (****) Date 2007-03-19 21:42
Agree!
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2007-03-20 11:30
Well I don't agree! I believe instant moving should be either removed or left out of the default setting. Also, IMHO, something got messed up on the way from LK to 2.3.1; integration of Larry's piece values probably went wrong.

Dragon Mist
Parent - - By Kapaun (****) Date 2007-03-20 17:42
That would be killing bugs, then, not changing algorythms...
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2007-03-21 10:07
No, instant reply is not something that just arose all of a sudden; Vas deliberately introduced it, therefore this is not a bug.
It is obvious that, implementing such a complex work, as is Larry Kaufmann's about value of chess pieces, is no way an easy task. It is also obvious (to me, anyway) that it requires dramatic change in algorythms. 2.3.1 does not trade her queen for 2 pawns (which would represent a bug), but performs worse (or no better than) 2.3/2.3 LK ELO-wise, which means that one of the possible causes for this underperformance might be in the way LK work was implemented.

Dragon Mist
Parent - - By Kapaun (****) Date 2007-03-21 15:18
No, instant reply is not something that just arose all of a sudden; Vas deliberately introduced it, therefore this is not a bug.


Yes, code is always deliberately introduced. And if it's not working as it should it has a bug. So Vas has to find and kill it. Or, if the problem is more difficult, he has to put instant reply out of the defaults for now and try to repair it later...

but performs worse (or no better than) 2.3/2.3 LK ELO-wise, which means that one of the possible causes for this underperformance might be in the way LK work was implemented.


That may be so or may not be so. I've already heard quite some different estimations of the playing strength, too. Anyway, as far as I've understood the case the current theory is that the performance should go significantly up after some bugs are eliminated. In this case the Kaufman algorithms would at least be better than the ones used before and should probably be kept for the time being...
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-03-21 16:43
Re. instant moves - this is a heuristic. It can work, it can fail. I haven't made any decision about it yet, although it will probably be configurable for people who don't feel comfortable with it.

Re. Larry Kaufman's values - he worked independently for a while and then we merged everything together. It's impossible to be 100% sure about anything, but the data is rather overwhelming that this formulation helps slightly.

Re. 2.3.1 - there were many other changes which went into this version. Some good, some probably bad. If I had a crystal ball which told me which is which, my work would go a lot more smoothly. I hope that the bug fixes in 2.3.2 finally show these algorithms in a good light.

Vas

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