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- - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 18:30
Hi,

I have just downloaded Rybka 3 through share-it (I bought it on Rybkachess.com). This is a single processor engine and I use a 32bit operating system.

However there is a serious problem: You cannot install Rybka 3 under the Shredder GUI (not the Chessbase GUI, the one from shredderchess.com sometime called "classic"), the GUI says that this is NOT an UCI engine. However what I bought is an UCI engine... Every single previous version of Rybka was working fine on this GUI. Moreover it should work with this GUI if this is an UCI engine since Stefan Meyer-Kahlen introduced the UCI protocol...

Is there a way to install Rybka 3 in Shredder (classic) GUI?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 18:38
Is there something called timeout in the Shredder GUI? It can happen that Rybka is loaded for too long and Shredder's waiting timeout expires, so Shredder considers Rybka a non-UCI engine.
That's purely my observations.
Parent - By tralala (*) Date 2008-08-06 18:41
Yeah, that's true, there is a relative strict timeout about 10 or 15 seconds. It prevented the installation of Fruit when it was still not registered, since you couldn't type in the serial fast enough.
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 18:41
What I can say is that this is the only UCI engine that I cannot even install in the Shredder GUI (this is a very good GUI and very stable). That's strange and perhaps related to the UCI extension I read somewhere... Clearly it should not happen and I don't think this is related to the GUI...
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 18:44
Well. Rybka 3 is known to work in Aquarium :) So Rybka 3 IS an engine.

As far as I saw from Rybka's output, it's behaving quite like an UCI engine unless you start giving the extra non-UCI commands, and Shredder GUI obviously doesn't do it.
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 18:57
OK you can say whatever you want, but Rybka 3 cannot be installed on Shredder GUI, it's a fact. And I am not a novice (http://www.ordichec.net/)

So perhaps there is a workaround, but for the moment using the standard procedure it simply doesn't work, which is not normal.

Shredder, Zappa, Hiarcs, Deep Sjeng, Loop, Naum, all previous version of Rybka + many other free UCI engines that I am testing on my website are installed without any problem...

So I do not know why Rybka 3 cannot be installed....
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 19:12
Sorry it I insulted you, I was only trying to help.
Since you are not a novice, I'll speak a little more technical.

An UCI engine is the console program that meets the UCI protocol requirements. You can run Rybka manually, and determine yourself whether it's a UCI engine or not. You don't need any GUI for that.

SMK is the creator of the UCI protocol, but it doesn't mean that 'engine is UCI <==> engine installs ok in Shredder GUI'.
For example, an engine which thinks for a year before answering 'uciok' to 'uci' is, technically, UCI-compliant. But it won't install anywhere.

So I was asking about Shredder GUI's timeout because I'm not familiar with the program. In Aquarium, for example, you can set the timeout yourself, so you can install Rybka 3 there. That's supposing that the real cause of the installation failure is the timeout, not something else.

I'm not writing all that to insult you or something.
Parent - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 19:16
OK no problem, It's my fault I was too nervous. But you know it's frustating when you buy something and that it doesn't work as espected (even if there are things more important than that!). But finally this is not due to Rybka but it seems that Shredder GUI had some problem with the file name, for some reason (at least on my system). So I gave my simple workaround, perhaps it can help somebody facing the same kind of problem.

Thanks again for your help!! And sorry for my bad mood :) !!
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 19:31 Edited 2008-08-06 19:37
Rybka just crashes if I try to install it in Shredder. I'm pretty sure that's not UCI-compliant.

Vas is going to send me a logging version for another issue, I might as well check this one too when it arrives.

Edit: there's something more sinister going on. Just my computer, I think.
Parent - By Svilponis (***) Date 2008-08-06 19:36
For me only Rybka 3 960 crashed. I thought that Shredder 9 UCI is not chess960 compliant and did not try any further.
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 19:38
It seems that there are problems with the Shredder GUI... Which GUI were you using?

In my case, I can confirm that I have only to change the name of the .exe to something simpler like "Rybka3.exe" or even "Rybka3-Dynamic.exe" and it works. I tried both on my desktop (windows xp professional) and on my laptop (windows xp family edition) and in both cases I had to change the name of the exe to be able to install the engines. I recall that this is the Shredder GUI which comes with Shredder 11 UCI (single processor) when you buy it on Shredderchess.com and not on chessbase (sometime it is called the "Shredder classic GUI" but I do not know if it is actually different from the real Shredder classic GUI which comes with a weaker version of Shredder).
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 19:45

>>Rybka just crashes if I try to install it in Shredder.
> It seems that there are problems with the Shredder GUI... Which GUI were you using?


You have great reading comprehension skills. :)

Turns out it had nothing to do with Shredder or Rybka and everything to do with the fact I was almost out of memory (doing IDeA with 1GB hash :)). Oops.
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 19:50
:) No I was asking which GUI in the Shredder GUI family. The classic one is currently the 3.0. So you could have the 1.0 or the 2.0 version. Moreover with Shredder 9, 10 and 11 (for sure) comes with a GUI which is different (even slightly). So this was my question but it was badly formulated I agree ;)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 19:53

> Moreover with Shredder 9, 10 and 11 (for sure) comes with a GUI which is different (even slightly).


That's known as the Fritz GUI, or ChessProgram. :)
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 21:47
No, if you buy Shredder on the website of Stefan Meyer-Kahlen (shredderchess.com), you get a GUI which has nothing to do with the Fritz GUI!! This GUI is developped by Stefan himself and not by chessbase...
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 22:00
Oh, I thought you meant the other GUI. Because I thought Classic 1-3 were the same GUIs as Shredder UCI 9-11.
Parent - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 22:08
Normally indeed Classic 1-3 should be the same GUIs as Shredder UCI 9-11 (but you never know actually, even if they look similar, the code could be slightly different with different bugs).
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 19:05
OK I found the workaround.

This is indeed perhaps a problem with the GUI. So Vas should add it to the FAQ. The problem comes from the name of the file. I use Windows XP 32 bit single processor. The original name of the program was "Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit.exe" and I copy this file and rename it to "Rybka3.exe" and then it works, you can install it under Shredder GUI...

So sorry it was not a problem with Rybka 3 (anyway it was working with Arena) but this is probably a problem with the GUI. But since the workaround is so simple (yet you have still to think about it), Vas ould add this information somewhere.

Best regards, I am going to test Rybka 3 now :)
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 19:13
Oops, read this post only after I wrote mine.

So probably Shredder GUI doesn't like spaces or minuses in the engine name. Or it's too long for it. Yes, of course this needs mentioning in the FAQ.
Parent - By Svilponis (***) Date 2008-08-06 19:22
There was another annoyance too. When installing different versions of rybka, the Shredder GUI wanted to name all those as Rybka3. I had to manually add Human or Dynamic.
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 19:33 Edited 2008-08-06 19:35

> The original name of the program was "Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit.exe" and I copy this file and rename it to "Rybka3.exe" and then it works, you can install it under Shredder GUI...


Didn't work here.
Edit: ignore my last few posts. It doesn't even work in console mode. Probably got corrupted at some point. Or something weirder (even the one I _know_ I've run in console mode doesn't work anymore).
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 20:58
Thanks, I'll add it to the FAQ.

Do you know what exactly causes the problem?

Vas
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 21:01 Edited 2008-08-06 21:03
I can't reproduce in Shredder Classic 3.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 21:03
Can't reproduce the fix or the bug?

Vas
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 21:04
Bug.
Parent - - By Jim Logan (*) Date 2008-08-06 22:10
I have no problem installing MC Rybka 3 (default, human, and dynamic) in Shredder 10 UCI (Shredder Classic 2).
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-08-08 01:58
You have to install R3 w32 (mp?; I have the mp version and the standard 32-bit mp version is named "Rybka 3 32-bit.exe" in the folder "Rybka_3_Multi-Processor"). What´s the name of the sp version? Identic?

PS: I know, that the 32-bit users are the stepchilds in the Rybka family! :-(
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-08 18:08
32-bit users are treated like princes by the Rybka team. Your versions have "32-bit" in both file-name and engine name to make you extra proud :)

Vas
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-08-08 23:31
He Vas, I like sarcasm! :-) And be sure, I wear tis 32-bit "Yellow Star" with proud.
Parent - By ernest (****) Date 2008-08-08 01:43
With ShredderClassic, I already had this problem with the complex-named Rybka 2s.
Solution: either rename without spaces, or create/edit by hand the XXengine.eng textfile (similar to XXengine.uci for ChessBase).

For Rybka 3 w32.exe (the only one installed yet), I had no problem on my PC, on my laptop it was refused the 1st time, tried it immediately again... and it worked.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 21:03
One more question: does this GUI have a name?

Vas
Parent - - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 22:02
Hi Vas,

I do not know what cause the problem and it seems that this doesn't happen for "Shredder classic 3" (this is the name of the product) as Vempele wrote above. The GUI I have comes with Shredder 11 UCI and is simply call "Shredder user interface" on the Stefan's website. But normally this GUI should be the same than the "classic" one, so perhaps it's a problem of my system. But I had the same problem on my desktop and my laptop, so I suspect that this could happen to other people also (I have nothing very specific on my systems).

The problem was that it took too long before the engine was loaded in order to be installed, so the GUI after a while (15 second, not more) stop to do the task and simply write that the engine is not an UCI engine. Once you rename the .exe everything goes normally: then engine is loaded within few seconds.

Anyway you could simply wrote in the FAQ that some people report that problems with file name could arise when using the Shredder GUI from shredderchess.com and that the simple workaround is to rename the exe file.

If it happens again to someone, he will be happy to know what to do and if it never happens again to someone, then it's just a (useless) sentence in the FAQ which is not a big deal in my opinion.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 22:05
Hi,

yes, I know which GUI you mean. Just wondering if it has an official name.

Vas
Parent - - By Jacob Alfaro Date 2008-08-08 03:55
   Vasik,Wow! who would have thought that the Shredder GUI wouldn't accept the Deep Rybka3.In the course of two days I 've spent over four hours trying to install Deep Rybka 3 to my Shredder 11 GUI but not a chance.I use a (AMD quad core 32 bit computer). A patch must be provided ASAP for I'm sure many of us are having the same problem.I think many customers have e-mailed Chessok but they're just as shocked as we are. How sad , but if works in Aquarium I think it's only right if we're allowed to purchase Aquarium at a discount price since it seems this problem might take a while to solve.(I can provide serial codes for both engines). Anyway Vasik, not to worry I still believe you will do the right thing. I thank you for your time, J.Alfaro
Parent - By Linus (***) Date 2008-08-08 04:10
Installing Rybka 3 in the Shredder GUI took me just seconds. That was the 64 bit MP version, though. As has been mentioned on this forum several times over the last couple of days, the reason for your problem is the engine name containing spaces. Just rename the exe and you are fine.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-08-08 18:09
Stefan cleared up this issue. To use the Shredder GUI (ie. from shredderchess.com), the engine filenames should not have any extra spaces. So, just delete the spaces from the Rybka filename.

We've added this to the FAQ.

Vas
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-06 19:07
In what Shredder Classic GUI do you refer? I used the Shredded Classic 2006 GUI and i just installed Rybka 3 32-bit without any problem.
Are you sure you tried to install Rybka 3 32-bit?  Or it was by mistake the 64-bit?
Parent - By genorb (**) Date 2008-08-06 19:12
This is the GUI that comes with Shredder 11 UCI (bought on Shredderchess.com not on Chessbase, so this is similar to the Classic one but there is perhaps some differences, I do not know). But I found a workaround, see above. Perhaps this problem for some reason only exist on my system (I do not see why though), but the solution is simple, just rename the .exe file to a simpler name...

I was using the 32 bit file for sure, but it's true that a mistake can happen since "64 bit" is not explictely written on the 64 bit exe.

Thanks anyway for your answer
Parent - By Svilponis (***) Date 2008-08-06 19:17
I had only problems when tried to install Rybka 3 960 under Shredder 9 UCI (something crashed, I  think this was Rybka only, and the GUI was showing, that this was not an UCI engine). The other Rybkas installed just fine.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2008-08-06 19:23
I am using Rybka 3 in Deep Shredder 11 GUI. You can install Rybka 3 in the usual way through the Extras/Engines Menu and it works fine.
  In fact, Rybka 3 works better than in Aquarium, faster probably because much less overhead than in Aquarium.
  I bought Deep Aquarium,  but it looks like I will not be using it at all, and just sticking with DS 11.
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 19:44

>In fact, Rybka 3 works better than in Aquarium, faster probably because much less overhead than in Aquarium.


I tested some time ago how much CPU time is used by Aquarium, not the engine, while doing the infinite analysis. If I remember correctly, the figures were about 1%. Maybe now, since we included the hash reading and sampled search, this figure may increase, but not too much.
You can do the test yourself: Run infinite analysis in Aquarium for, say, 10 minutes. While it's still running, open the Task Manager and look at the 'CPU time' column. It's the total CPU time used by each running program. Compare the time Aquarium.exe used with the time Rybka 3.exe used. You'll need to subtract some seconds from Aquarium's time that are used for Aquarium startup.

>I bought Deep Aquarium,  but it looks like I will not be using it at all, and just sticking with DS 11.


Maybe you'll change your opinion at some time. Although I agree with you, Shredder GUI is very good.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2008-08-06 19:50
Zruty:
I will do more scientific analaysis soon. These are just my first impressions. For many purposes (engine vs. engine, etc.) Aquarium looks to be superb, but for straightforward infinite analysis, it is much harder to use GUI than other GUIs, e.g., cannot find keyboard shortcuts for basic functions like Deep Analysis, Stop Analysis, Delete variation, promote variation, Clear Hash, etc.

  Also, when stop analysis, the analysis is lost, so one has to write it down while it is going. And there is no point using Stop/Insert, since one typically wants to insert only 1 or at most 2 plies, not a very lengthy variation.

   Hopefully, all these basic glitches will be ironed out in the next iteration of Aquarium. Nevertheless, Rybka 3.0 seems much, much stronger than ver. 2.3.2a based on my work today in a game I had analyzed for several days with ver. 2.3.2a.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 20:00

> Deep Analysis


There's no default shortcut. You can click on the microscope icon above the Ribbon or define your own keyboard shortcut.

>Stop Analysis


Esc. Or space, if you want to add the PV to the notation.

>Delete variation


Backspace?
Ah, ctrl+Y. You'd have found that in the right-click menu.

>promote variation


ctrl+L

>Clear Hash


Right-click on the square in the lower left corner and go to Set Personalities. Press the Clear Hash button.

>etc.


You can make shortcuts for everything on the Ribbon. Hatted-Fish-on-upper-left-corner->Options(DON'T click yet)->Shortcuts.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2008-08-11 02:48
I have discovered by experimenting that "space" both starts and stops analysis.
Backspace does not do anything, but "control-Y" deletes a variation. Right-click does not show any of these things, like clear hash. "ctrl-L" appears to promote variation.
  I'm just experimenting with various keys to see what shortcuts are set and will report them when I find them. The only ones I'm sure of so far are "space" and "ctrl-Y" and "ctrl-L" as, Vempele gave them. I have not found any other shortcuts other than the ones he listed.
We need a shortcut for Clear Hash.
BTW, in the Help file/Interactive Tutorials takes you to a web page that says "It works!", nothing more.
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-11 07:23

> Backspace does not do anything


Only of you're at the end of the variation (it deletes the last move) and focus is not on the tree window (bug).
Parent - By Zruty (*****) Date 2008-08-06 20:01
I was afraid of that. Aquarium is a powerful machine, but it needs to be accustomed to.

For example, I'll just point out how you can do almost everything you noted. I'm doing this not to convince you to switch to Aquarium, but to illustrate what I mean under 'powerful machine'.

>it is much harder to use GUI than other GUIs, e.g., cannot find keyboard shortcuts for basic functions like Deep Analysis, Stop Analysis, Delete variation, promote variation, Clear Hash, etc.


Shortcuts can be manually assigned to any Ribbon function. See Aquarium button -> Options -> Shortcuts. I prefer to use 'Record' button there, but you can also double-click cell to change shortcut.
Delete variation - Ctrl+Y while in notation.
Promote variation - Ctrl+L while in notation. These shortcuts can be found in the Notation popup menu.
Stop analysis - Esc, or Space again.
This leaves us only Clear Hash - it can not be easily done, yes.

>Also, when stop analysis, the analysis is lost, so one has to write it down while it is going. And there is no point using Stop/Insert, since one typically wants to insert only 1 or at most 2 plies, not a very lengthy variation.


Enter during analysis makes the first move from the analysis line.
When the analysis is stopped, its results are SAVED in tree. When you return to the analysed position (for example, go back and forward 1 move), you may notice the move and score in the Status Bar in the bottom left. Move the mouse over it to see the whole variation. Double-click it to insert the whole variation. This data is not lost when you exit Aquarium.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2008-08-06 20:18

> for straightforward infinite analysis, it is much harder


Reading this article might help you with infinite analysis:

Infinite Analysis with Rybka Aquarium
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2008-08-07 13:28
Thanks to Zruty and Dadi for the helpful hints. As usual, Dadi's article if very thorough and helpful.
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) Date 2008-08-06 19:46
what does mean faster? Can you show the positions where Rybka in Aquarium works slower. Usual GUI overhead can't be more than 1%.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2008-08-07 13:25 Edited 2008-08-07 13:37
Victor,
  You are right that the overhead of Aquarium is a minor factor. The big problem is ease of use. As Zruty points out, Aquarium is a very powerful software product which can do much, much more than other GUIs. That is Aquarium's great strength and advantage, but also its great weakness.

  We see the same problem with CA9 vs. Chessbase. CA9 is a much more powerful program than Chessbase. But for the average user who simply wants to easily do the same routine functions (copy games between databases; promote, delete variations in a game;merge games etc.) CB is much faster and more intuitive, much easier to use. (Delete variation in a game is unnecessarily complicated in CA9.)

I have both CA9 and CB. Although I have spent much time learning and using CA9, and although I greatly appreciate Hugebase, I find that I end up using CB for my database maintenance.

  I am not criticising Aquarium. It is a superb achievement, a software product with great power. So my comments are like criticizing an apple for not tasting like an orange.

  You and the Convekta team obviously  made a marketing decision when you created a super powerful Aquarium. I certainly hope this decision works out for you, since Convekta has been (along with the Rybka team) the most innovative force in chess software in the last 5 years.

  However, for a (small/large?) part of the market for GUIs, Aquarium is much too complicated and too hard to use.

On an average day,  I use Rybka for 5-6 hours of interactive analysis of my ongoing games. That means that I do certain repetitive actions over and over again very quickly, e.g., start/stop analysis, clear hash, delete variations, promote variations, load games, delete games from databases, change databases, etc.

I do these things very fast and efficiently to find the best moves in 16 ongoing games. (I cannot post a position from an ongoing game.) I have been working with the Aquarium manual, which I have printed out. Each step described above is very slow compared to the very fast operation in Deep Shredder GUI, e.g., in Aquarium, I do not even know which engine was installed as the default or what its parameters are in Aquarium.
To take another example, if I want to do infinite analysis, I have  many choices (Analyze, Start Custom, Deep Analysis, Game Analysis, etc., and each one alters the listed variations in ways I don't want.

  From the beginning of Aquarium's development, you responded to the many requests on this board for more and more features. I often posted requests to keep Aquarium simple and small. However, I assume the market was for a large, complicated program. Perhaps someday you may do a lighter, smaller version of Aquarium ("Aquarium Lite"), a much smaller, faster GUI, quick and easy to use.  Just remove many of the features in Aquarium and you will have Aquarium Lite.
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