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- - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 09:56
... starts in about 4 minutes, right?
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:08
I don't like the initial 2-3 moves, Rybka again seems not concerned about the centre of the board.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:12
Shredder has e5-f5-g5-h5 pawns as black, after only 6 moves!
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:17
Ah, Rybka goes for well known double fianchetto, Bg2 and Qh1. :-) This is met by ...c6 I guess.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:26
I would say that Shredder is slightly better now.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:34 Edited 2008-08-01 10:39
I would say that Shredder played this first game much better. Gained space with its premature Pawn storm and has a nice mobility now.
Rybka seems not the usual Rybka dominating in all aspects of game, in FRC-Chess in this tournament.

Still Rybka managed to defend well and now we have a classical computer Chess game, where everything seems locked and i guess it will now follow some pointless 50 move maneuvers and perhaps Shredder as in the other game will not be satisfied with a draw and will make another bad move so Rybka will win this way again.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:37
What first game? Isn't this the first game?
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:41
Yes it is i think.
And while i was saying about boring game with pointless moves the board caught fire as Shredder played a bold move!
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:43
In this game Shredder is playing chess. Rybka is just wood-pushing.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:50
Rybka is back from almost dead?!
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:53
.. aaaaand, Rybka is winning. :-)
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-08-01 10:58
I do not understand why you say almost dead.

I see that rybka won the game.

I only saw positions that are unclear to my eyes or positions when rybka was better.
I never saw something different.

I did not analyze the game with chess program and I wonder if "almost dead" is based on some computer evaluation.

Uri
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 13:00
Uri,

I say this because this is how it looks like to me. I am an 2200 FIDE OTB player. I didn't use any chess program to come to this conclusions.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:53
I have the same feeling but still Rybka(white) is going to win:
2r5/1R1bq2k/8/1P1Nbp2/4p1pP/4Q1P1/3P2K1/5B2 b - - 0 1


In move 57 did Shredder miss a nice move?
Shredder here played 57...Bf6 but i see that after 57...e3+  white has problems while after 57...Bf6 white has the advantage.
2r1b3/1q5k/4N3/1p3p2/2Pbp1pP/1Q4P1/R2P2K1/5B2 b - - 0 9
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 10:54
Can't tell, but I too have a feeling that Shredder messed it up somewhere around there.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-08-01 11:07
e3 is better in the diagram but rybka evaluates e3 as advantage for white.

New game
2r1b3/1q5k/4N3/1p3p2/2Pbp1pP/1Q4P1/R2P2K1/5B2 b - - 0 1


Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit :

1...Bd4-e5 2.Qb3-e3
  =  (0.04)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
1...Bd4-e5 2.Qb3-e3 Qb7-e7
  =  (0.22)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  10kN
1...Bd4-e5 2.Qb3-e3 Qb7-e7 3.Ra2-a7
  ²  (0.41)   Depth: 7   00:00:00  20kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Qb7-e7 3.Ra2-a7
  =  (0.18)   Depth: 7   00:00:01  38kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Qb7-e7 3.Ra2-a7 Be8-d7
  ²  (0.29)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  62kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Kh7-g8 3.Ra2-a7 Qb7-b8 4.Qe3-h6
  =  (0.06)   Depth: 9   00:00:02  111kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Kh7-g8 3.Ra2-a7 Qb7-b8 4.Qe3-h6 Qb8xa7
  =  (0.14)   Depth: 10   00:00:03  138kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Kh7-g8 3.Ra2-a7 Qb7-b8 4.Qe3-h6 Qb8xa7 5.Qh6-f8+ Kg8-h7 6.Qf8xf6 Qa7-b7
  =  (0.16)   Depth: 11   00:00:04  195kN
1...Bd4-f6 2.Qb3-e3 Kh7-g8 3.Ra2-a7 Qb7-b8 4.Ra7-a6 Qb8-b7 5.Ne6-c7 Bf6-d4
  ²  (0.42)   Depth: 12   00:00:06  302kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.Ne6-g5+ Kh7-g7 5.Qb3-b1 Be8-d7 6.Be2xg4 Bd4-f6 7.d2-d4 Bf6xg5 8.Bg4xf5
  =  (0.23)   Depth: 12   00:00:14  690kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.Ne6-g5+ Kh7-g7 5.Qb3-b1 Be8-d7 6.Be2xg4 Bd4-f6 7.d2-d4 Bf6xg5 8.Bg4xf5
  ²  (0.40)   Depth: 13   00:00:21  1003kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.Ne6-g5+ Kh7-g7 5.Qb3-b1 Be8-d7 6.Be2xg4 Bd4-f6 7.d2-d4 Bf6xg5 8.Bg4xf5
  ²  (0.38)   Depth: 14   00:00:34  1554kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.c4-c5 Bd4xc5 5.Ra2-a1 Be8-g6 6.Be2xb5 Bc5-e7 7.Qb3-e3 Qb6xe3 8.d2xe3
  ²  (0.28)   Depth: 15   00:01:58  5622kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.c4-c5 Bd4xc5 5.Ra2-a1 Be8-g6 6.Be2xb5 Bc5-e7 7.Qb3-e3 Qb6xe3 8.d2xe3
  ²  (0.31)   Depth: 16   00:02:41  7512kN
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.c4-c5 Bd4xc5 5.Ra2-a1 Be8-g6 6.Be2xb5 Bc5-e7 7.Qb3-e3 Qb6xe3 8.d2xe3
  ²  (0.36)   Depth: 17   00:04:15  11514kN

(so k,  01.08.2008)
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 11:20

>e3 is better in the diagram but rybka evaluates e3 as advantage for white.


Yes i should have expressed better. I wanted to say that after 57...e3+ of black, white has more problems than it has after black plays 57...Bf6.

After the more or less forced line Rybka gives after 57...e3+ which is:
1...e4-e3+ 2.Kg2-h2 e3-e2 3.Bf1xe2 Qb7-b6 4.c4-c5 Bd4xc5 5.Ra2-a1 Be8-g6  we have:
2r5/7k/1q2N1b1/1pb2p2/6pP/1Q4P1/3PB2K/R7 w - - 0 6


This is clearly better for black than the actual position occurred in the game(notices the potential a7 pin):
2r1b3/1q5k/4Nb2/1p3p2/2P1p1pP/4Q1P1/R2P2K1/5B2 b - - 0 2
Parent - - By pokerpawn (***) Date 2008-08-01 10:08
can this be followed somewhere?
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 11:30
In the second game Rybka allowed again a closed position and actually a cramped position for her or if you want Shredder managed to close Rybka in her cage again:
Notice the a8,b8 Bishops of Rybka!
bbkr3r/pp1p2q1/2pPnp2/2P1p2p/1P2Np1P/5N2/P2QPPP1/1BRK3R w K -
- 0 1
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 11:33
Is there an opening book or they play from move 1 on their own.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 11:46
I don't know.
Things got worse for Rybka:
Notice the 2 Bishops of Rybka as also Shredder has a Rook for a Bishop.
If Shredder doesn't win this then he will never win.
1k5r/bb1pq3/2p1npB1/1pP1p2p/1P5P/1R2PN2/P2Q1P2/4K1R1 w - - 0 1
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 12:26
I like Shredder, it knows how to place its pieces when playing FRC.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 12:15
I think they play from their own moves from the beginning.
Parent - - By Maschi (*) Date 2008-08-01 11:40
You are right, it is always the same, no center control and bad use of bishops.
I wonder how she manages to win so often out of these positions.

I dont think there is an opening book, there are just too many possible starting positions in FRC and they have no time to make a book after they know the starting position.
Parent - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 11:43
I think that this position (starting) after d4 f5 d5! black has a lot of problems. King . Bishops cannot open (without opening lines to the King.)
I think in 960 some positions give one side more possibilities
Parent - - By GemBling Date 2008-08-01 11:43
I really wonder how she plans to get out of this oO
(after 31.a4)
does not look good ... :/
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 11:46
Yep, it doesn't look good at all. If Shredder plays this one correctly, she's gonna lose.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-08-01 11:51
something is simply wrong with the pgn 39...0-0-0 is illegal move espacially when 3...0-0-0 was played

Uri
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 11:53
I noticed that too. Black played Rd8 and the system of notation gave indeed 0-0-0.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 11:57
They still haven't fixed that bug?? It was there last year.

Idiots.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-08-01 11:59
Who is "they"?

Who is responsible for the notation?
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 12:04
DGT, I think.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 12:47
This one is heading for a draw. Shredder knows how to play FRC I must say.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 12:49

>This one is heading for a draw.


I'm not so sure:
Rybka-Shredder:
8/5r1p/3k2p1/8/8/4R1P1/4P1KP/8 b - - 0 49
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 12:54
When positions start to resemple chess, Rybka is playing very well. On FRC Shredder is better
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 12:55
Yes, this is a general conclusion. This ending, however, might be won for white. As long as Rybka keeps black King cut off on the left side of the board.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 13:01 Edited 2008-08-01 13:04
I would play differently and i think i would win. I think Rybka didn't play well the endgame.
It's a known weakness of course of computers these Rook and 2-4 Pawns endgames where one side has one Pawn more.

Here:
4R3/7p/3k1rp1/8/8/6PK/4P2P/8 w - - 0 22


I would play Kg4 instead of e4 of Rybka and try to win the h-Pawn.
I have managed to do it against Shredder 10 and won. Of course that does not prove it's a win for white but i will analyze it further.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 13:06
That would have been my plan also ...
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 12:57
I agree, Shredder gets into good positions quicker than Rybka.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-08-01 12:58
Game 3 over, TB draw. So, 1.5-1.5. We wait for the 4th and decisive game.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 13:06
Rybka is playing Black in the final game. The way Shredder is starting the game, anything can happen in the coming game.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 12:01
Any idea when the next game is?
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 13:23
Hmmm and now almost normal chess :)
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 13:29
Yes, I wanted to say that, it was almost a Sicilian kind of opening, except Rybka giving up a pawn, it is not bad though, it is good for mobility and she can castle... almost normally. I am pretty sure she is going to give a good show now. :) In fact the game is as good as being won for Rybka. :)
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-08-01 13:32
An we reached a perfectly normal chess position with black a pawn down for compensation.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 13:36
Buffos, I am pretty sure that Shredder will be in lots of troubles very soon :)
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 13:43
This is already over i think. :-(
r5k1/ppq2npp/3bb2r/3p3B/3P1p1n/2P2P2/PP1NQ1PP/R1B1R1KN w - - 0 19
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-08-01 13:32
f5! Wow! we are in the aggressive mode now hey :)
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-08-01 13:32 Edited 2008-08-01 13:51
Yes. Now that black castled and if white does the same in 2 moves then it's a Chess position.

I didn't like at all the opening adventure Shredder made with his Queen. He lost many tempo for a Pawn.

[Event "?'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shredder"]
[Black "Rybka"]
[Result "*"]
[Variant "chess 960"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbrn/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBRN w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "18"]

1. e4 c5 2. Qh5 Ng6 3. Qxc5 e6 4. Qh5 Nc6 5. Ng3 Be7 6. c3 Qc7 7. Qd1 d5 8. exd5 exd5 9. d4 O-O *

r1b2rk1/ppq1bppp/2n3n1/3p4/3P4/2P3N1/PP3PPP/RNBQKBR1 w - - 0 10
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