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- - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 17:32
I just want to report a bit, I was there because of the U14 youth open, where one of my "pupils" played. I left at about 17.30 after the open finished and Vas didn't arrive yet. I heard that he took the train, possibly he didn't know much about the "Deutsche Bahn" :)

So the question is how much too late he will be ;)

At the computer tournament Alexander Naumov was already there and after installing Windows XP 64 bit Arena he noticed that his engine was slower under Arena and he tried to fix it by installing the ATI drivers for the graphics card - tomorrow we will see if that worked :)
Parent - By Arifur (**) Date 2008-07-29 18:15
Thanks Felix for the report. Please keep us updated about all the scandals and other tid-bit.

Ask Vas how much time he has put into the new chess960 engine (testing and so on).

Cheers!
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-07-29 18:30

> he didn't know much about the "Deutsche Bahn"


Are trains in Germany late too!??? 
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2008-07-29 18:31
Either that or they take off in a direction you don't expect ;)
Parent - - By exigentsky (***) Date 2008-07-29 20:41
Oh, that is so wrong if I'm understanding the reference correctly.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2008-07-29 20:42
No, that is NOT what i meant!
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-07-29 20:44
Truer words have never been spoken. ROFLS!
Parent - By theoak (**) Date 2008-07-30 19:15
It's not that trains are slow... cars run fast :)
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-07-30 07:46
You should come to Holland! If less than 85% of the trains is on time, our railway services get a fine :-)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-07-30 07:55
And if more than 85% of trains are on time, they get a budget cut? :-p
Parent - - By sharpnova (***) Date 2008-07-30 23:12
exactly
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2008-07-31 17:10
That's why exactly 85% of the trains arrive on time here ;)
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2008-07-30 08:10
Then you should come to Greece. Rybka's Randomizer is almost everywhere :)
Greece is a great place to live and the worst place to work.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-07-30 17:15
Definitely a great place to visit! Also a fine place to work, as long as you don't have to get anything done. :-)

Alan
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-08-02 08:15
It would be interesting when the Railway company uses Monte Carlo to determine where the train goes to and what time it will leave :-)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-08-02 08:26
Isn't this the way it works in Italy?
Parent - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-08-02 08:35
In Italy, strangely enough, the Monte Carlo search for a real stable government & president always leads to Berlusconi. Now I am afraid a MC search can also be influenced by big money :-)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 18:33

>At the computer tournament Alexander Naumov was already there and after installing Windows XP 64 bit Arena he noticed that his engine was >slower under Arena and he tried to fix it by installing the ATI drivers for the graphics card - tomorrow we will see if that worked :-)


Was slower under Arena relative to what GUI?

Also why he believes that the problem will be fixed if he installs newer graphic card drivers?
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 19:14
Slower to no GUI :) (command line).

Because the drivers weren't found during installation and he thought that could be a solution :)
Parent - By sharpnova (***) Date 2008-07-30 23:13
so GPU can handle more load of display and less is taxed on the cpu
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 19:15
Btw., the tournament will be played on quads and this time we play twice as much games per day- so 6 games tomorrow :)
Parent - - By Arifur (**) Date 2008-07-29 19:38
I think last year they all used the same hardware. This does not seem to be case this year, or? Do you know on what hardware Rybka and others will be running?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 19:45
This is the case again. I only know that the computers are quads. I'll be in Mainz tomorrow, we will see then :)
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2008-07-29 20:08
I'll be in Mainz tomorrow, we will see then :-)

Don't forget to take some new pictures again in Mainz. It'll be very interesting to have again a new report here in the page.

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 20:24
Sorry, I haven't got a camera (only a very poor one which is nearly unusable), but maybe Harald Fietz is there.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 20:56
Who are the opponents?
Is it a computer-computer tournament the one that Rybka will participate?
Are the opponents Shredder, Naum and Spike?
If this is true then this tournament is a dubious one, since Hiarcs and Deep Sjeng at least, are very good FRC players also and they will not play.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 20:57
The opponents are Naum, Sjeng and Shredder, so the strongest ones.

It's a fisher random chess computer tournament.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 21:12

>The opponents are Naum, Sjeng and Shredder, so the strongest ones.


How do you know that they are the strongest ones?
CCRL has Hiarcs 12 as 5th but the error bars are such that it may be even 3rd.
And also the confidence level, since it's not 100% obviously, it always leaves room for Hiarcs for example to be even the strongest FRC engine.

Also the time control of CCRL is 40/4 so may be that with the time control that will be used on Mainz, Hiarcs or Spike for example will be those that would be in the top 4.

Also even if these 4 are the strongest ones, why choose the top 4 and no the top 5 or the top 10 or even better allow a free participation?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 21:16
2 (Rybka and Shredder) were choosen since they won in the last 2 years, 2 qualified in an online tournament (Naum+Sjeng). Seems to be reasonable.

The format has the advantage that you have only top programs playing on a small stage. before it was not really attractive, many unknown programs and confusing for the spectators.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 21:24
OK i see.

Now i don't understand this you've said:

>twice as much games per day- so 6 games tomorrow


Rybka's opponents are 3 so a Round-Robin tournament with alternating colors for each side means 6 games.
But the way you use the phrase "so 6 games tomorrow", makes me believe that there will be games in the day after tomorrow also.
So is this a double RR tournament or what?
And actually what is exactly the program if you know?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 21:33
Rybka plays against every opponent 4 times (with black and white twice) afaik.

The program? Which one? Rybka is Rybka 3 :)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 21:39

>The program? Which one? Rybka is Rybka 3 :-)


:-P No i meant the program=schedule of the tournament.... :-)

>Rybka plays against every opponent 4 times (with black and white twice) afaik.


Oh so all programs will have 12 games each.
So it will be a 4 days tournament right?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-07-29 21:44
3 days- first 2*6 games and then on Friday a final (don't know how much games)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-29 22:02
OK thanks.

It seems the tournament has some serious misinformation written to its official page. Very misleading.
I see there:

>"Category 29: The strongest chess tournament…ever!
>Livingston Chess960 computer chess world championship"


I don't know if it's the strongest Chess tournament ever, but i don't understand on what base they say this. Even that way, perhaps CEGT 120/40 QUAD list is the strongest Chess tournament ever, or anyway even if it's not, i don't see why this "Livingston Chess960 computer chess world championship" must be the strongest one.

Also this tournament is not Chess as they say in the title. It's a variation of Chess: FRC-Chess.

Also about this also very misleading statements:

>"The engines that will battle it out in Mainz are the numbers 1-4 on the Chess960 computer rating list. Arbiter Hans Secelle calculated that the >average rating of Rybka, Shredder, Naum and Deep Sjeng adds up to (3052 + 2970 + 2956 + 2947) = 2981. This means that we'll have a >Fide-category 29 (!) tournament or, in other words, the strongest tournament in the history of chess.... (Eric van Reem)"


I explained earlier that CCRL 40/4 FRC list is not appropriate to make the conclusions that they make. Error bars, time controls, and not use of latest versions(perhaps Hiarcs beta is stronger than the Naum that participates in the tournament).

Also the above article has another serious mistake:
They assume the ELO of the programs that have in CCRL 40/4 FRC list corresponds exactly to FIDE ELO.
Obviously this is unjustified and wrong.
For example if CCRL have chosen to use a base rating for Glaurung 2.0.1 64bit, 2500 instead of 2800, then this Mainz tournament average ELO would be 2681 instead of 2981.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-07-29 22:40
Just one point. Although CCRL ratings in normal chess do seem to be a bit inflated, at least at the top end, I suspect that the opposite is the case for Chess960. Humans have little experience with it and no opening knowledge or pattern recognition to rely on. I would bet on a 2800 CCRL rated program against Kasparov, Anand, Kramnik, or Carlsen any day at any normal time control if they play chess960.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-07-29 23:15
It´s Rybka 3 w32! :-) :-)

Machines have AMD Phenom 9600 4x2,30 GHz with 2048 MB RAM und Windows XP 32-bit.

PS: I think, Vas will install xp 64-bit, if it´s allowed. I hope, it´s not allowed! :-)
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2008-07-30 06:31
:), yes Roland, the conditions must be unfavourable for Rybka as much as possible. :)
Parent - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-07-30 06:44
No Phillip,
The conditions could be more unfavourable for rybka.

For example single processor machines.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-07-30 16:43
It was unfavourable for Rybka 3 today in spite of x64. Rybka made 3.5/6 and lost her match against Naum 0.5-1.5; not so convincing! Larrys results were better. :-)
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-07-30 16:48
I agree. This is a rather pale performance for R3.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:04
Can you show me Larry's results on FRC-Chess?
I can't seem to find them....

Also it's obvious(just like Jeroen said) that Rybka wants to castle as quickly as possible and this obviously bad for several reasons.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:08
I am not happy because of this, but this kind of shows us that all those 100-game bullet matches and handicapp ones (also book wins) are perhaps somewhat missleading.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:10
I would agree if you showed me a 100 games bullet result from Larry or from another one, that had Rybka 3 winning with amazing scores on FRC-Chess.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:14
I didn't mean to question Larrys work, I admire it. It is just my oppinion that mentioned themes lead us astray from the point: having the best CHESS PLAYING engine. At least the way I see it.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:30
Yes that's true.
BUT FRC-Chess is not Chess. So where is your objection?

I guess you believe FRC-Chess is more or less like Chess and that Rybka that is extremely good on Chess should normally be also extremely good at FRC-Chess.
Because FRC-Chess after a point, where castle rights are forbidden or already castle has occurred, the big majority(not all) of the FRC-Chess positions are equivalent to Chess positions so Rybka should play them extremely well also.

But it seems it doesn't. And this is a logical question.
So i have to ask Vasik or Larry why?
Why Rybka seem not to have this invincible aura in FRC-Chess also?
Doesn't Rybka 3 play well the openings? But Rybka 3 is supposed to know much more about openings than any other program. Or this is only about Chess openings?
Does have a bug in FRC-Chess implementation?
Did the version of the tournament had a bug?
Does Rybka 32-bit is so much worse than 64-bit and if 64-bit was used then the situation will be completely different?
Or the results are normal?
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-07-30 17:33
George, you ask right questions! :-)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-07-30 17:39
I think it was already clear that Rybka's low branching factor is not optimal for the opening, and I suspect this is worse in R3. The solution of course is a small book for each of the positions, even if its only 3 or 4 moves deep. If you concentrate on only putting 1 line in for a tournament (and hope you don't get the same position twice so that someone can tee off on you), you would be at a big advantage. I'm wondering if others actually did this...

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-07-30 18:14 Edited 2008-07-30 18:16
Nothing is clear and I do not see why you suspect it is worse for rybka3.
Do you have an evidence that rybka3 has lower branching factor than rybka2.3.2a?

If rybka's low branching factor was so bad for the opening how rybka could do so well in cegt and ccrl when programs play with no opening book and have to find theory moves by themselves?

Edit:Note that CCRL includes also chess960

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-07-30 18:27
No opening book in cegt or ccrl? This is not my understanding of how they test. My understanding is that they use books resulting in balanced positions. This is not the same thing as starting from the opening position.

Rybka's branching factor in 2.3.2a was claimed to be around 2. To make up for a slower evaluation, a more selective search is used in R3. I assume this means a lower branching factor. Maybe you can provide some reasonable alternatives?

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Guenther RWBC (**) Date 2008-07-30 18:46
It seems you still did not realize that we are talking about FRC.
Of course CCRL did _not_ use opening books for their FRC games.

Guenther
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