i beat rybka 2 times today there were also 2 loses ill give rybka credit dueAre you serious irvstein1? I am proud of you. So, you are making progress in your quest fro dethroning the monster as the best chess player in the planet. Do you still want to continue with that match? :)
This is where correspondence chess can help you (and i mean free of machine use C.C). At the age of 35 you don't have the stamina to begin from scratch and become a top rated player but you can take C.C and do great things. I think one of the best examples in OTB chess was Staunton, but with todays standards he would be only a master strength player (besides the amount of knowledge 150 years ago was a joke with todays standards).
yes if u start beating rybka and others you could play a GM tournament , but of course you will never do , simply because u will never just start beating these engines ....
Hi,
As it turns out I do have weights and a kickbag in my garage and still use them BUT prefer to go to the gym lmao ...
I might be guessing but I reckon most here think irvstein1 is yanking our chain :) ... Prove me wrong, I am sure many here will play you in an engine room somewhere ... I will be impressed if you can do what many IMs and GMs cannot :)
Regards
As it turns out I do have weights and a kickbag in my garage and still use them BUT prefer to go to the gym lmao ...
I might be guessing but I reckon most here think irvstein1 is yanking our chain :) ... Prove me wrong, I am sure many here will play you in an engine room somewhere ... I will be impressed if you can do what many IMs and GMs cannot :)
Regards
>>>and began to win or draw most of his games
this will simply never happen, because the level of chess engines is higher than human capability.
That means you will loose for ever.
The thing is, you don't know what "human capability" and "high level chess at 3000 ELO" means.
Put it simpler, what you say is:
imagine you start running 100m competitions only against sport cars... you do it 10 000... 100 000 times, until you push so hard, you start eventually winning...
HARD WORK!
Concentrate! Beleave in yourself! DO it!
i think this incurs a special challenge, so here it is:
Larry, play rybka3 for the next few months: you can study is opening book, tactics etc. but, use this as your only means of chess preparation for the senior world championship. we can let your result speak for itself as to the quality of rybka preparation.
Larry, play rybka3 for the next few months: you can study is opening book, tactics etc. but, use this as your only means of chess preparation for the senior world championship. we can let your result speak for itself as to the quality of rybka preparation.
I doubt that what we think of as general intelligence and chess ability are directly linked. There are many very intelligent people who are absolutely horrible at chess. And while many persons who are very good at chess are also very intelligent, there seem to be cases where great chess ability doesn't seem to coexist with great intelligence. Bobby Fischer, for one, exhibited little evidence of great intelligence, and the stories of his high school IQ of 180 or so rely on a single, dubious source. What Fischer did exhibit were a number of very special abilities-- such as a tremendous memory, an ability to reproduce long sequences of complex sounds and, of course, superlative chess talent. He probably had Asperger's syndrome, and rare persons with this condition have savant-like abilities that accompany an otherwise normal or somewhat above average general intelligence. Beyond these abilities Bobby seemed almost childlike in many ways, with a mind that, after he gave up chess, seemed satisfied to be occupied by latching on to some of the worst, most idiotic, notions of our time.
While there are exceptions, I think there is at least a moderate positive correlation. Chess is linked with many abilities that are key components of intelligence. These include, memory, pattern recognition, calculation, planning, problem solving and sustained concentration. Although, I'm not sure how high the IQ connection is. Since many extremely strong players are so focused on chess, they would have little exposure to much of what is tested on IQ tests. Perhaps they are capable of scoring much higher if they are well-rounded.
Anyway, it only works from high to low. For example, I can fairly reliably predict that a 2100 player is of at least above average intelligence but I can't assume that a 110 rated player is an idiot. The 110 player may have just learned chess or put little study into it. It's similar in school. I can generally assume that an excellent student is of above average intelligence, but I can't be sure that a terrible student is not. It just hasn't been demonstrated that he is. This example may be stretched since until college, being an excellent student in school requires far less extra intelligence and far more discipline and hard work. Of course, the problem with all this is actually defining intelligence. I don't think IQ tests are accurate enough, but I also don't think it matters to put a number on intelligence.
Anyway, it only works from high to low. For example, I can fairly reliably predict that a 2100 player is of at least above average intelligence but I can't assume that a 110 rated player is an idiot. The 110 player may have just learned chess or put little study into it. It's similar in school. I can generally assume that an excellent student is of above average intelligence, but I can't be sure that a terrible student is not. It just hasn't been demonstrated that he is. This example may be stretched since until college, being an excellent student in school requires far less extra intelligence and far more discipline and hard work. Of course, the problem with all this is actually defining intelligence. I don't think IQ tests are accurate enough, but I also don't think it matters to put a number on intelligence.
There exists a quite clear scientific definition of IQ. Let a lot of people do a lot of tests that has something to do with "intelligence". Then you perform factor analysis on the data and find a single main factor. Psychometricians call this the general 'g-factor'. This 'g', whatever it means in everyday life, can be correlated against other performances for scientific results.
And this is a related technique to how you could handle evaluation weigths as there was a discussion about before.
And this is a related technique to how you could handle evaluation weigths as there was a discussion about before.
Quote: Many scientists are now convinced that there is no single measure of intellectual ability" and that "it is useful to continue to expose the myth of "general intelligence". Some researchers in artificial intelligence have argued that the science of mental ability can be thought of as "computationalism" and is "either silly or pointless," noting, "Mental ability tests measure differences in tasks that will soon be performed for all of us by computational agents." And intelligence theorist Howard Gardner also has written that he does not believe "that there is a single general talent, whether it be called intelligence, creativity or 'g'."
I have had first hand experience of profoundly gifted children. The most extreme case I had encountered is a 5 year (now 6 year) old boy who has extreme ability for mathematics and numbers. The very first question I asked him when I meet him was to calculate 36 x 12345679 (8 missing). I expected that he would need a pen and paper but he answer 444444444 without hesitation. He could read when he was 2 and there is no doubt that he has a very hight IQ though his ability is so extreme that all tests he had fails to capture his gift (the maths questions in kids IQ tests are just too easy). Maybe the most impressive feat of this boy was that he by pure mental calculations discovered that:
1/37=0.0270270270270........ and that 1/27=0.0370370370.....
I think that he (with the right coaching) could become some kind of mathematical Magnus Carlsen. I have also been involved in coaching (only briefly) a boy who later became a GM, and has been teaching mathematics to gifted children. I am agree with the scientists in the quote above. The notion of a general intelligence is somewhat misguided. I think that that there are a number of distinct abilities that are relatively independent. I once meet a very interesting guy. He was hopeless in chess, and mathematics (though he tried hard), but to my surprise he had a very deep view and was a natural philosopher. I agree that "God's" gifts are not distributed fairly, but I think the notion of "general" intelligence is a pre-scientific notion that brain researchers eventually will be replaced by a much more nuanced picture.
I have had first hand experience of profoundly gifted children. The most extreme case I had encountered is a 5 year (now 6 year) old boy who has extreme ability for mathematics and numbers. The very first question I asked him when I meet him was to calculate 36 x 12345679 (8 missing). I expected that he would need a pen and paper but he answer 444444444 without hesitation. He could read when he was 2 and there is no doubt that he has a very hight IQ though his ability is so extreme that all tests he had fails to capture his gift (the maths questions in kids IQ tests are just too easy). Maybe the most impressive feat of this boy was that he by pure mental calculations discovered that:
1/37=0.0270270270270........ and that 1/27=0.0370370370.....
I think that he (with the right coaching) could become some kind of mathematical Magnus Carlsen. I have also been involved in coaching (only briefly) a boy who later became a GM, and has been teaching mathematics to gifted children. I am agree with the scientists in the quote above. The notion of a general intelligence is somewhat misguided. I think that that there are a number of distinct abilities that are relatively independent. I once meet a very interesting guy. He was hopeless in chess, and mathematics (though he tried hard), but to my surprise he had a very deep view and was a natural philosopher. I agree that "God's" gifts are not distributed fairly, but I think the notion of "general" intelligence is a pre-scientific notion that brain researchers eventually will be replaced by a much more nuanced picture.
I can explain how you can get it without pen and paper.
The first part:
36*12345679 is too hard so let try 9*12345679 and multiply it by 4
it is easy to calculate the last thing by head and see that you get 111111111 and multiplying by 4 is also easy.
there are 2 ways to calculate 9*12345679 one is direct calculation and the other is simply substracting
123456790 minus 12345679(the first substraction is 1 and you need to reduce 1 from 9 and later it is easy to see that all substractions give 1 when you need to reduce nothing and I could think about it without pen and paper)
Note that I could think about it after seeing the result and after knowing that the result is 444444444 it was easy to think that you need to multiply only by 9.
It could be harder to do the same without knowing the result before the exercise but it is also possible.
I wonder if the child used the way that I suggest or maybe he simply calculated fast 12345679*30 and 12345679*6 to add them.
The second part seems to be easier for me:
I know that 1/9 is 0.11111111
dividing it by 3 is dividing 111 by 3 and it gives 37 so we get
1/27=0.037037037....
Now
It is easy to see that 27*37=999
It means that 0.027027027...*37=0.999 when 999 repeats and it is easy to see that 0.9999999.... is 1.
It also means that 1/37=0.027027027....
Uri
The first part:
36*12345679 is too hard so let try 9*12345679 and multiply it by 4
it is easy to calculate the last thing by head and see that you get 111111111 and multiplying by 4 is also easy.
there are 2 ways to calculate 9*12345679 one is direct calculation and the other is simply substracting
123456790 minus 12345679(the first substraction is 1 and you need to reduce 1 from 9 and later it is easy to see that all substractions give 1 when you need to reduce nothing and I could think about it without pen and paper)
Note that I could think about it after seeing the result and after knowing that the result is 444444444 it was easy to think that you need to multiply only by 9.
It could be harder to do the same without knowing the result before the exercise but it is also possible.
I wonder if the child used the way that I suggest or maybe he simply calculated fast 12345679*30 and 12345679*6 to add them.
The second part seems to be easier for me:
I know that 1/9 is 0.11111111
dividing it by 3 is dividing 111 by 3 and it gives 37 so we get
1/27=0.037037037....
Now
It is easy to see that 27*37=999
It means that 0.027027027...*37=0.999 when 999 repeats and it is easy to see that 0.9999999.... is 1.
It also means that 1/37=0.027027027....
Uri
Did you ever hear of a guy by the name of Trachtenberg? He wrote a book that included all kinds of tricks and rules for doing arithmetic quickly and without writing utensils. He developed the techniques while he was whiling away his time in a concentration camp.
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
>He wrote a book that included all kinds of tricks and rules for doing arithmetic quickly
There are a few books in this genre. There is also a book on the calculators themselves. One of my profs in college was actually a mental whiz like this - in fact, he made an infomercial to huck his MatheMagics (or something) series (undergrads were paid minimum wage to sit in the audience and act excited on cue).
>while he was whiling away his time in a concentration camp
Similarly, more than one famous chess problemist has been employed in some job such as a fire lookout on a remote mountain.
>Did you ever hear of a guy by the name of Trachtenberg?
No, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system
Thats the way we would do it, but the boy was only 5 years old. When I asked how he could calculate 12345679 x 36 so fast he explained that he knew the 37 table to infinity.
I then asked him if he wanted to know what I like about the 37 table. When I then told him that I like that 3 x 37 is 111 he was almost in extacy and agreed that his was also why he liked this table so much. From taking to him about his "method" I realized that is was clear to him that 9 x 12345679 is 111111111 since he already knew that 3 x 12345679=37037037 (not quite sure how knowing the 37 table helps here). I am impressed that he within the next split second realized that 36x12345679=4x111111111=444444444.
What I think the boy has in common with chess prodigies is an extreme memory helping to buildup a huge "database" of patterns and relationships. Most of us will just be able to calculate the numbers slowly and would need pen and paper, because our memory for relevant patterns would be next to zero.
To make a comparison with chess I think its maybe best to consider bullet chess since in this chess form there is no time for real calculations and everything is essentially pure pattern recognition. An ordinary chess player who plays bullet chess will see a few basic themes like if any piece is enprise or which piece next to develop. I am convinced that when a top 2600+ player plays bullet chess, each position on the board in a split second tickers a much more vivid relationship between patterns. An ordinary player might think something like "next develop bishop to g5 to pin knight at f6" while a the gifted chess player will have a much more detailed feeling for the position. In a split second the player will "see" the answer and memory and pattern recognition plays in my view an important role in this.
I then asked him if he wanted to know what I like about the 37 table. When I then told him that I like that 3 x 37 is 111 he was almost in extacy and agreed that his was also why he liked this table so much. From taking to him about his "method" I realized that is was clear to him that 9 x 12345679 is 111111111 since he already knew that 3 x 12345679=37037037 (not quite sure how knowing the 37 table helps here). I am impressed that he within the next split second realized that 36x12345679=4x111111111=444444444.
What I think the boy has in common with chess prodigies is an extreme memory helping to buildup a huge "database" of patterns and relationships. Most of us will just be able to calculate the numbers slowly and would need pen and paper, because our memory for relevant patterns would be next to zero.
To make a comparison with chess I think its maybe best to consider bullet chess since in this chess form there is no time for real calculations and everything is essentially pure pattern recognition. An ordinary chess player who plays bullet chess will see a few basic themes like if any piece is enprise or which piece next to develop. I am convinced that when a top 2600+ player plays bullet chess, each position on the board in a split second tickers a much more vivid relationship between patterns. An ordinary player might think something like "next develop bishop to g5 to pin knight at f6" while a the gifted chess player will have a much more detailed feeling for the position. In a split second the player will "see" the answer and memory and pattern recognition plays in my view an important role in this.
I agree. And that's why I was careful in my first sentence to write 'what we think of as general intelligence'. What we measure as intelligence is just a collection of skills, and these skills were probably chosen on the basis of 19th century ideas on this topic. In the comic 'Dilbert', he goes to his garbageman for sage advice, and it's funny because it's so plausible. Some of the people I consider the 'smartest' are buried in life doing the dreariest of jobs. And we all know that what passes for the best and the brightest in human leadership is a very sad joke. If card or toothpick counting, or sheer feats of memory, made up the basis of IQ tests, then 'Rainman' was a genius, not a savant. As Fischer once said: "Genius. It's a word. What does it really mean? If I win, I'm a genius. If I don't, I'm not".
The single factor 'g' is not a myth nor "pre-scientific" but a scientifically normal statistical fact that can be reproduced by anyone.
But this doesn't contradict that you can define 7 or 8 different kinds of intelligence and use them in pedagogics a la Gardner. Neither does it deny studying the lower order factors and try to produde a more "nuanced" theory. And it could be that geniuses tend to have an extreme talent in only one or a few of the lower factors, I don't know, but the 'g' tells that ability normally comes across the whole field.
On the same page as your quote there is a very good analogy with human 'size'. Saying 'g' is a myth is like saying there is only a myth that humans have different 'size' and that you instead should look at each finger and part of the body.
Well, big humans tend to have both long fingers and big feet. On next level you may find factor clusters 'length' and 'thickness' and then finger length and toe length etc, but this is no contradiction.
Now I feel too off-topic so I stop here... but I think it is interesting to note that this 'g'- statistical problem is related to that of evaluation functions :-)
But this doesn't contradict that you can define 7 or 8 different kinds of intelligence and use them in pedagogics a la Gardner. Neither does it deny studying the lower order factors and try to produde a more "nuanced" theory. And it could be that geniuses tend to have an extreme talent in only one or a few of the lower factors, I don't know, but the 'g' tells that ability normally comes across the whole field.
On the same page as your quote there is a very good analogy with human 'size'. Saying 'g' is a myth is like saying there is only a myth that humans have different 'size' and that you instead should look at each finger and part of the body.
Well, big humans tend to have both long fingers and big feet. On next level you may find factor clusters 'length' and 'thickness' and then finger length and toe length etc, but this is no contradiction.
Now I feel too off-topic so I stop here... but I think it is interesting to note that this 'g'- statistical problem is related to that of evaluation functions :-)
Actually, I don't think that's accurate. There is now the idea of multiple intelligences and particularly emotional intelligence. While they may give a more complete picture, they're not as easy to test. In any case, I wasn't talking about any scientific definition because I think they're all woefully inadequate and also serve little purpose.
Bobby Fischer, for one, exhibited little evidence of great intelligence
The problem with intelligence is that you can´t see them.
Tell me a person, who showed much evidence of great intelligence and I tell you he/she is a bluffer!
The problem with intelligence is that you can´t see them.
Tell me a person, who showed much evidence of great intelligence and I tell you he/she is a bluffer!
Come on Roland. If you had the opportunity to question Fischer and Gauss, how long would it take you to figure out who the really smart guy was?
I´m afraid that I´m not so good in figure out the smart guy. I have seen it in the past, when I make my academic studies. I was in close contact with a group of students and I think we were at the same level. But in the final examinations one of us made the best tests by far over the last ten years at this university (and there were thousands of tests in this time).
I think, Carl Friedrich and Bobby wouldn´t be so much interested in small talk (or interview) with me. And after the interview I may have my preferences but this has nothing to do with the question, who is the more intelligent one or the one with the higher IQ. You have to look to their work and then you can decide (maybe)!
Last: Conformism isn´t the benchmark for IQ!
I think, Carl Friedrich and Bobby wouldn´t be so much interested in small talk (or interview) with me. And after the interview I may have my preferences but this has nothing to do with the question, who is the more intelligent one or the one with the higher IQ. You have to look to their work and then you can decide (maybe)!
Last: Conformism isn´t the benchmark for IQ!
Well, if we look to their work, Gauss did just about everything while Fischer won a few chess games and espoused some really crackpot theories. Its pretty easy for me to see which of these guys is much more likely to have had a 180+ IQ.
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
I have a simple problem, I can´t argue against Gauss. He was a genuis. If genius and high IQ (in our IQ tests) correlates in every case isn´t so obvious for me.
Gauss made a huge contribution. I make use of his work every day, 200 years later. Fischer played a few nice chess games. In 200 years he will be completely forgotten. See the difference? :-) OK, so maybe doing something useful and having a high IQ are not correlated. But if that is the case, what good is it?
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
Any suggestion about the most intelligent (real!) criminals and their contribution?
According to the EU, Bill Gates is a criminal (well almost) and I don't even have to tell you his contributions! :-)
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
I think that chess can be taught ... and by that I don't mean simply moving the pieces. You can teach general theories ... general technical aspects such as endgame technique and tactical calculation ... and the player will improve quite a bit. But I think this is good to a certain level ... probably around 2400 to 2500 ELO ... then other factors come in. What none of you have mentioned which I think has a lot to do with chess is ability to "understand" a position and realize that position A is better than position B ... to me that is what makes a difference between a normal GM and the big K's and Fischer etc... A few weeks ago I was going through some of Magnus's games ... and it was amazing how everything seemed to fall into place just in time and the harmonious movement of the pieces were really like a symphony ... this was probably not based on tactical calculation, but more on the feel that a certain position had more potential than the other... all pieces working together for maximal effect ... this simply cannot be taught but is a gift you are born with. Yes tactical prowess will get you many games at the lower levels .... traps and sacrificial attacks and endgame technique can be taught and if you work hard enough you will improve tremendously in that aspect ... but at the top levels, where most of the games are at long time controls ... tactics won't get you far ... if that is all you have, you will get plastered every game.
Magnus father Henrik mentioned that Magnus often was surprised in the after-analysis while the opponent had seen many more variations. He thought this was due to Magnus had a very special feeling for which variants that were relevant, so he intuitively discarded the rest. So his amazing ability to quickly calculate complex positions is due to better selectivity, not necessarily higher raw speed.
I always thought this was Rybkas main advantage as well, the much more optimized selectivity...
I always thought this was Rybkas main advantage as well, the much more optimized selectivity...
> this simply cannot be taught but is a gift you are born with
I agree! Their ability is 80-90% genotypical and 20-10% phenotypical, I believe.
BS, We are all 99.999999999% genetically the same those who blame genetics for their shortcomings be it physicality, cognitive or musical are full of crap. Own up to them! The reason why you suck isn't because of mommy or daddy but because of you and you alone get over your pride and start studying or running or whatever it is you think others can do but you can't because of "talent" lets get real people and quit being crybabies.
The same can be said about humans and chimpanzees. Do you claim that chimps should be able to be grandmasters with enough effort as well?
That tiny difference in genetics can make a huge difference.
That tiny difference in genetics can make a huge difference.
I must be seeing things you can't really be stretching my statement this far left field. Lets not go nuts here ok people.
Actually, some of your comments on this subject are a bit more "left field" than the possibility of teaching a chimpanzee to become a grandmaster. If you think that we are so much the same genetically, what do you believe about human ancestors 100,000 years ago? 2 million years ago? My point is that with mitochondrial DNA sequencing showing how much our genetics has changed over that period of time, you can figure that the mutations that tend to occur allow for a pretty wide variation in physical and mental characteristics. And, lo and behold! Mitochondrial DNA sequencing also shows these to be present, confirming what should be painfully obvious to those who cannot see the forest for all of the trees. Motivation, of course, counts for much. In general, unless someone is suffering from a physical deformity, whether it be malformed physical parts, genetic predisposition toward certain things like anemia, etc., then if that person works hard enough, he can become stronger, faster, or whatever compared with the vast majority of people in the world. However, that doesn't mean that the person can become an Olympian--that vast majority of people, even when working hard enough, simply cannot do this because the level of competition at that level is high enough that certain physical traits that are not so common to most people give the extra possibilities, both in terms of training/recovery and in terms of the competition itself. In running, people with long legs and high torsos in relation to the rest of their body have a definite advantage, and this is something that has been known to physiologists for a very long time--it's actually really basic and really obvious. I have neither of these things. I can often do well enough, and I win ~50% of the local long-distance races in which I compete. However, when I compete in races against elite runners, things are altogether different--they have a very different physiology that allows them to get much more out of their training than I get: they can train harder and recover more quickly, and even if they don't, they can still more effortlessly run in the races. This is just one example--it goes like this in other sports, too.
Meanwhile, it should be very obvious that someone with an IQ below 85 is not going to become a super grandmaster. This may sound like a random number, but it accounts for 16% of the people in the world. For that matter, I would guess that nobody rated over 2500 has an IQ of below 100, while meanwhile, people with IQs below 100 account for 50% of the world's population. The same goes for theoretical physicists. This should not be difficult to understand.
Meanwhile, it should be very obvious that someone with an IQ below 85 is not going to become a super grandmaster. This may sound like a random number, but it accounts for 16% of the people in the world. For that matter, I would guess that nobody rated over 2500 has an IQ of below 100, while meanwhile, people with IQs below 100 account for 50% of the world's population. The same goes for theoretical physicists. This should not be difficult to understand.
Spot on, Turbo.
lol, alrighty, chimps and mitrochondrial DNA aside, I believe anyone can be very good at something if they work hard for it, are motivated, and start early in life when the brains neural connections are still developing/forming. Ok, so perhaps we aren't talking Einsteins's or Carl Lewis's here, but very good at somethings indeed.
1st example, The Polgar sisters, and their father Laszlo, whose rigorious training methodology turned each of his children into chess prodigies. Perhaps this was partially due to good genetics as some would believe here, but I agree with Laszlo, it was probably more educational exposure and pattern memorization than anything else that got them to where they stand today. Speaking of genetics, their father was only a modest chessplayer and believed that genius is taught not inherited as his test seem to prove though how conclusive genetics vs training was in his case we will never be sure since it is unknown how they would have turned out had he done nothing.
2nd example, This one was on the front cover of discover awhile ago an article on chess masters and their ability to calculate concrete variations quickly as opposed to the amateur. It was found through testing brain activity while actively engauging in chess positions that the chess masters used a part of the brain which had more to do with memory, pattern recognition while the amateurs who could calculate about as deep but not as accurately depended more on a different part of the brain relying more on decision making... This discovery proved that in the study, masters were simply relying on the memories of past positions/patterns to come about correct variations with little actual calculation while the amateur had to work it all out from scratch i.e. kind of like trying to build a house without any formal training hense the moral of this story is you can't do anything quickly or accurately without experience.
Mike
1st example, The Polgar sisters, and their father Laszlo, whose rigorious training methodology turned each of his children into chess prodigies. Perhaps this was partially due to good genetics as some would believe here, but I agree with Laszlo, it was probably more educational exposure and pattern memorization than anything else that got them to where they stand today. Speaking of genetics, their father was only a modest chessplayer and believed that genius is taught not inherited as his test seem to prove though how conclusive genetics vs training was in his case we will never be sure since it is unknown how they would have turned out had he done nothing.
2nd example, This one was on the front cover of discover awhile ago an article on chess masters and their ability to calculate concrete variations quickly as opposed to the amateur. It was found through testing brain activity while actively engauging in chess positions that the chess masters used a part of the brain which had more to do with memory, pattern recognition while the amateurs who could calculate about as deep but not as accurately depended more on a different part of the brain relying more on decision making... This discovery proved that in the study, masters were simply relying on the memories of past positions/patterns to come about correct variations with little actual calculation while the amateur had to work it all out from scratch i.e. kind of like trying to build a house without any formal training hense the moral of this story is you can't do anything quickly or accurately without experience.
Mike
Looking at your second example first, with the masters, it's also a case where they recognized it as a situation in which memory is more important than calculation (or at least saves a lot of mental effort). They didn't look at the situations that arise so often in grandmaster play where raw tactical calculation is also required. If you're not good at both of these aspects, then you cannot become a grandmaster.
In your first example with the Polgar sisters, these are people who are already very intelligent, and it has been said that Sofia may even have an IQ in the 150-160 range. I have heard that Judit's is in the 120's or 130's. You can figure that Susan's is probably somewhere between the two, especially since first-borns tend to have higher IQs. The Polgar sisters are good examples of both nature AND nurture playing significant roles.
In your first example with the Polgar sisters, these are people who are already very intelligent, and it has been said that Sofia may even have an IQ in the 150-160 range. I have heard that Judit's is in the 120's or 130's. You can figure that Susan's is probably somewhere between the two, especially since first-borns tend to have higher IQs. The Polgar sisters are good examples of both nature AND nurture playing significant roles.
IQ proves nothing because it is possible that the same education that help you to become grandmaster also improves your IQ.
The polgar sisters also prove nothing because they are not random childs but childs of the same parents.
Uri
The polgar sisters also prove nothing because they are not random childs but childs of the same parents.
Uri
> The polgar sisters also prove nothing because they are not random childs but childs of the same parents.
Better information might have been gained if two of the Polgar sisters were identical twins and one of them taught chess early and the other not, as it is, we have no control case.
I do not think your idea is going to give better information.
I expect the sister that does not learn chess not to play chess and we can learn nothing from it.
The main question is if there are significant differences between people who get the same education and invest the same time.
Uri
I expect the sister that does not learn chess not to play chess and we can learn nothing from it.
The main question is if there are significant differences between people who get the same education and invest the same time.
Uri
I saw some research (in the 90's) that from extensive questionnaires decided that identical twins are "80% self" (="the same person"). Non-identical fraternal twins were 20% self and normal siblings 10% self (the same as random members of the population as it turned out). It would be interesting to see if this mapped to chess playing ability of said groups.
>IQ proves nothing because it is possible that the same education that help you to become grandmaster also improves your IQ.
Possible, but it won't be much, and we could be dealing with selection effects. You have made a stronger statement in this post than you made elsewhere in this thread, so I'm replying here, too.
>The polgar sisters also prove nothing because they are not random childs but childs of the same parents.
I was making a similar point in my reply, with a different (additional) reason.
1: The Polgar sisters came from intelligent parents and are not a representative sample anyway. They're a curiosity and not proof of anything.
2: With training, the brain selects what matters out of almost infinite possibilities. Stronger players will obviously narrow down their focus to better choices. This is true outside of chess too but does not prove much. Creating and recognizing the hundreds of thousands of patterns necessary to correctly select what is important is a key aspect of chess strength and intelligence. A more intelligent person will usually look for shortcuts and apply past experience and patterns to be more efficient. For example, 100! can be solved by brute force but a clever person will look for the easier way. Moreover, a lot of training is necessary to reach such skill and I doubt that most players are capable of responding to it to such a high level. I've seen too much evidence for this to believe otherwise.
2: With training, the brain selects what matters out of almost infinite possibilities. Stronger players will obviously narrow down their focus to better choices. This is true outside of chess too but does not prove much. Creating and recognizing the hundreds of thousands of patterns necessary to correctly select what is important is a key aspect of chess strength and intelligence. A more intelligent person will usually look for shortcuts and apply past experience and patterns to be more efficient. For example, 100! can be solved by brute force but a clever person will look for the easier way. Moreover, a lot of training is necessary to reach such skill and I doubt that most players are capable of responding to it to such a high level. I've seen too much evidence for this to believe otherwise.
1: The Polgar sisters came from intelligent parents
You have proven it? And you think intelligence is heritable?
PS: I´m not convinced! Please don´t answer. I know this kind of discussion.
You have proven it? And you think intelligence is heritable?
PS: I´m not convinced! Please don´t answer. I know this kind of discussion.
The most important point was that it's a small sample without a control. Anyway, what's the point of asking questions I can't answer?
Note that IQ is clearly something that people can learn to improve and I believe that more than 85% of the people can get IQ above 100 if they
get the right education.
people(including people with IQ 80-100) usually do not try to improve their IQ by at least 20 points and the way that I can suggest to do it is simply to solve IQ tests and understand the solutions and repeat this again and again including trying to solve questions that you already saw the solutions to them but you do not remember the solutions.
Uri
get the right education.
people(including people with IQ 80-100) usually do not try to improve their IQ by at least 20 points and the way that I can suggest to do it is simply to solve IQ tests and understand the solutions and repeat this again and again including trying to solve questions that you already saw the solutions to them but you do not remember the solutions.
Uri
However, if you want to improve your chess, you should better study chess instead of solving IQ tests. :)
correct but it is possible that the exercises that help you to improve your chess also help you to improve your IQ.
Another point is that bigger IQ and better chess playing strength may be result of other factors like food or vitamins that help you to have a better memory.
Uri
Another point is that bigger IQ and better chess playing strength may be result of other factors like food or vitamins that help you to have a better memory.
Uri
He Uri, you are an intelligent person (in my estimation). Is there any reason, that chess players are more intelligent than the rest of the world?
For me, the ambition to play chess has nothing to do with intelligence. And in the chess world we see the same stuff than in the other world. Why should an intelligent person go to chess? And I´m absolutely sure that we have GM´s with IQ < 110 (where we have accountants with IQ > 130).
For me, the ambition to play chess has nothing to do with intelligence. And in the chess world we see the same stuff than in the other world. Why should an intelligent person go to chess? And I´m absolutely sure that we have GM´s with IQ < 110 (where we have accountants with IQ > 130).
The ability to play chess at the highest levels not only often requires a lot of time and dedication (except in the case of true geniuses like Capablanca), but it always requires the ability to be able to establish and manipulate complex patterns and sequences mentally, something that is at the very basis of intelligence. Thus, there are no grandmasters with IQ's less than average.
I think its possible to have a chess savant. Just as there can for music or mathematics both of which are very intrinsic to chess.
Mike
Mike
Ones for mathematics are still going to have extremely high IQs Fischer is an example of a "chess savant" (though he still almost certainly had a very high IQ)--he had practically no knowledge or "intelligence" of anything outside of that realm, though much of that was his own doing in that he restricted himself to a fifth-grade education of such things.
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