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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / New Chess rig
- - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-25 01:37 Edited 2020-07-26 01:51
I am considering building a new chess rig built around either the AMD Threadripper 3960X 3.7 GHz 24-Core Processor or
AMD Threadripper 3970X 3.7 GHz 32-Core Processor. Here is a first cut at other components and would appreciate advice from the expert builders.

CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3

Mobo: ASUS AMD AM4 ROG X570 Crosshair VIII Hero (Wi-Fi) ATX

Memory: G.Skill Trident Z RGB 128 GB (4 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16

2 X Intel 660p Series 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME SSD

Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 1650 4 GB Phoenix OC

Since I am expecting game changing GPUs from AMD in the near future, there is no high end GPU in the system.

Can I do with slower RAM than the very expensive G.Skill 128 GB kit?

What about the mobo for high end TR chip?

Thanks in advance, CMA
Parent - - By user923005 (****) Date 2020-07-25 02:58 Upvotes 1
Don't skimp on the power supply.
I guess high end GPUs might eat 300 watts each, and you will want (maybe) 2 of them, so one KW is a bare minimum for such usage (Your CPU will also eat a lot, and even the motherboards for these new AMDs chew power, then disk, etc.).  The cost of a really big power supply is not a lot more than a little one and you will be sorry if you get one that is too small.

Slow memory means less performance.  The ludicrous fast stuff is really expensive but moderately fast memory is a good investment.

Plenty of quiet fans for the box.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-25 03:43 Edited 2020-07-26 02:19
Great advice from user!

So we are talking about 1000-1200W PS?

G.Skill Trident Z RGB 128 GB (4 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 is fast and expensive memory.

For Ryzen TR CPU with SF, you don't see DDR4-3200 CL16 RAM as overkill?
If it were excessive, what would be the next step down in RAM?
Parent - - By user923005 (****) Date 2020-07-25 22:58 Upvotes 1
This is the power supply I got:
POWERSUPPLY: 1,600 Watts - LEPA G1600-MA 80 Plus Gold Certified Modular Power Supply

I got 128 GB of 3200 RAM, it cost about $640 at the time.  I actually replaced the original 64 GB that came in the machine

I do not know what your budget was or your system plans.

You can always buy more RAM later, so keep that in mind, but buy big sticks, so that you have room to expand.

I have 2x 2080 supers in mine, and I think it is fabulous.  I have a room full of server gear and this machine can replace all of it, except the 120 TB storage.
And the old machines consumed about 10KW, and this one probably one KW or a little more than that.

As you can see, I left myself plenty of headroom, and the huge power supply was not expensive.

What is right for my configuration may not be right for yours.
I spent a lot of money on really fast gumstick SSDs (I bought 4 of the 2TB PCIE 4.0 SSDs and put them in a PCIE 4.0 card) but you may not need "ludicrous speed" I/O.

In order to know how to build your machine, you should consider your goals and plan for expansion.  Don't break your budget, because you can always add on later, but plan for that so you won't have to back-up and restart something.
For example, if you bought a bunch of ultra fast 8G RAM sticks, and filled all of your slots, how will you put more memory in later?  The original investment will be a waste if you want to expand.
Parent - By user923005 (****) Date 2020-07-25 23:23 Upvotes 1
This is the kind of RAM I bought for my machine:
https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-CMW32GX4M2C3200C16W-Vengeance-PC4-25600-Desktop/dp/B07GSKGSM6/ref=sxin_7_ac_d_pm?ac_md=7-1-QmV0d2VlbiAkMTAwIGFuZCAkMTc1-ac_d_pm&cv_ct_cx=ram&dchild=1&keywords=ram&pd_rd_i=B07GSKGSM6&pd_rd_r=15eb07c3-21df-472e-bd9a-c2f39470edce&pd_rd_w=siMQn&pd_rd_wg=ptBQs&pf_rd_p=7f921fd8-4a45-4dc1-82ec-573bec7d35f6&pf_rd_r=XDFSGKVVFQNCB33KJ0NA&psc=1&qid=1595719181&sr=1-2-22d05c05-1231-4126-b7c4-3e7a9c0027d0

It has a gimmick that along the top ridge there are multi-colored LCDs that shine in a wave.  At first I thought it was stupid.  But then, when I installed it, one of the sticks was not seated right, and it did not glow as brightly as the others, so I could see where the problem was right away.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-26 02:18
So you feel that the 3200 RAM is worth it for chess vs. 2400 RAM?

I will look at 2 X 2080 Supers, especially after the advice I've been seeing about not expecting anything worthwhile for lco processing from the upcoming AMD Navi 2x.  I take it that you are getting better lco depth than from 1 RTX 2080 Ti ?
Parent - - By user923005 (****) Date 2020-07-26 10:20 Upvotes 1
The faster RAM was worth it for me, but I have no idea if it is worth it for you.
We all make compromises.  I bought a 3970x instead of a 3990x because the 3990x was not out yet and we did not know when.  Also, it was projected to be 50% faster, so if I run my machine 1/3 longer, I will get the same analysis.

It turns out it does better than 50% faster, but there is no way to guess that before hand.

I have a lot of GPUs including a 1080 TI but I do not have a 2080 TI so I can't directly compare from experience.
The 2080 supers cost a lot less and they are fast enough for what I want to do with them.

About waiting...  It's wise on the one hand and unwise on the other.
Every year, the performance about doubles (despite the obituaries posted on Moore's law).  So if you wait one year, you can get twice the performance for the same money.  Or you can get the same performance for half the money.  Sounds pretty smart, right?  And it is.  The problem is that the pattern never stops so you can keep waiting forever and never get a computer to do your calculations.  So that is the other hand.  I will probably buy the 5000 series threadripper for my next purchase.
I will probably also get AMD GPUs then, because AMD is working on transparent memory access for CPU and GPU which is pretty well revolutionary.

Here is my advice:
Stay on budget
Plan for expansion
Expect to purchase again in less than 5 years.
Everything else is up to you.
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-26 18:42
Great advice from user923005:
   I know I have to move on the GPU front so that I can do something with NN/lc0 before 6/2021 when I'm likely starting ICCF WC Finals.
You seem happy with 2 X RTX 2080 Super at 2 X $740 = $1480 vs. RTX 2080 ti at $1850 (current prices on Newegg.)
Parent - - By MrKris (***) Date 2020-07-25 04:50

> Since I am expecting game changing GPUs from AMD in the near future, there is no high end GPU in the system.


I doubt it will change for Lc0: it runs best on Nvidia's CUDA and tensor cores and their new 30xx series is expected this year.

I would wait for a desktop or TR 4000 later this year.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/amd-ryzen-radeon-roadmap/
The 5000 series is in planning, and there will be something, who knows what, after that.

My only 32 GB ram is fine for Lc0 (RTX 2060) up to G/30 mins. so far, though it will run out on analyzing a position for a long time (I think 45 mins.? but, myself, I do not do more than 5 or 10 mins./position anyway with no problems).
I have built a 2700X, 4770K and a couple of AMD PhII's years ago.
For myself I've preferred the mid-range, saving for the next gen or something else.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Here is from the offical Stockfish website, Blog section, about the release of Stockfish 11:
" ... This makes Stockfish the strongest chess engine running on your smartphone or normal desktop PC, and we estimate that on a modern four cores CPU, Stockfish 11 could give 1:1000 time odds to the human chess champion having classical time control, and be on par with him. ... "
https://blog.stockfishchess.org/
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-26 01:59
"I would wait for a desktop or TR 4000 later this year.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/amd-ryzen-radeon-roadmap/
The 5000 series is in planning, and there will be something, who knows what, after that."

"AMD is expected to debut its Threadripper 4000 processor, which goes by the code name Genesis Peak SP3r3, in late 2020. Threadripper 4000 will likely be based on an enhanced 7nm+ process, making its design similar to the Ryzen 4000 Vermeer release."

Thanks for the url, which I had not seen. You seem to be saying that the upcoming TR 4000 is the one to buy; or do you mean to wait for it so that the current AMD Threadripper 3970X will then be marked down?

As for as GPU for lc0 is concerned, I should not expect any help from the upcoming AMD GPU family?
Parent - - By MrKris (***) Date 2020-07-26 04:00 Upvotes 1

> You seem to be saying that the upcoming TR 4000 is the one to buy; or do you mean to wait for it so that the current AMD Threadripper 3970X will then be marked down?


Either and a third: a Ryzen 4xxx with 16-cores should = or a 20-core (or more?) TR 3xxx (although there is not one) at half or so the price and there is speculation about a 24-core Ryzen (not TR).
My point is you should have plenty to chose from.
My experience: I got my 2700X after the 3xxx's came out at a very good sale price (since increased to much closer to 3xxx) BUT its AVX2 execution is slower than 3xxx - this was before the new NNUE so I saw no reason to want that at the time. Re the +50% floating-point below, AVX is not the same but it might improve again I might speculate.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/amd-ryzen-4000-rumors-news-specs-features-price-release-date/
"... Zen 3’s tock cycle will come with a new architecture and an enhanced 7nm+ process node. AMD could potentially lean on TSMC to manufacture this chip on its enhanced 7nm node. For the Zen 3-based Vermeer release, AMD is said to focus on three main features for its silicon: IPC gains, faster clock speeds, and higher efficiency.
The Zen 3-based Ryzen 4000 desktop CPUs won’t be such a drastic improvement, but it will bring some notable enhancements. AMD had confirmed that it will rely on a new CPU architecture for Zen 3, and early reports posted by Wccftech suggest that this design could deliver a 17% boost in IPC and 50% increase in floating-point operations. ..."
"...In October, WCCFTech reported that Zen 3’s improvements will include lower cache latency and higher infinity fabric speeds. That would help increase the IPC (instructions per cycle) by 8% over Zen 2 and deliver an additional 200MHz to 300MHz per core. This should not only make Ryzen 4000 faster than its predecessors, but will allow AMD to be more competitive with Intel on clock speeds. We still don’t have much information on core count, but with Zen 2 doubling the core count of Zen, we should expect to see even more cores with Zen 3...."
This is about the EPYC but if I remember correctly the TR 3970X has split or shared access cores to cache instead of the "equal" below:
"... AMD had confirmed that Zen 3 EPYC will benefit from a unified cache design, and according to AdoredTV, we should see double the L3 cache available to each Zen 3 core. And because of the new design, each core will have equal access to the cache on the same die, leading to more consistent performance. Hopefully, these changes will get ported to AMD’s desktop silicon as well...."

> As for as GPU for lc0 is concerned, I should not expect any help from the upcoming AMD GPU family?


I have not seen anything to suspect the next AMD would be better for Lc0 than the next Nvidia. (Though Lc0 did improve it on AMD recently.)
I franky do not really understand the below but it does not look good for Lc0 to me:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.14290.pdf 25 jun 2020
"... 2.3 ... 4Y. Tsai et al.As of today, AMD’s ROCm ecosystem – and the HIP development ecosys-tem – still lacks some key functionality of the CUDA ecosystem. For example,HIP  lacks  a  cooperative  group  interface  that  can  be  used  for  flexible  threadprogramming inside a wavefront, see Section 3.3 ..."
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-26 18:31
Mr. Kris:
Thanks for the excellent survey of the ever changing HEDT chip landscape. My takeaway based on the Digital Trends articles and on your interpretation of them, is that--for both high end AMD TR chips and for Nvidia GPUs--one should definitely wait till late 2020, when there will be much better chess computing bang for the buck.
Hopefully, the handful of other Rybka hardware experts like Lukas will weigh in on this issue in the coming weeks, before I foolishly pull the trigger and buy an AMD Threadripper 3960X GHz 24-Core for $1350 on eBay.
  My simplistic, back-of-envelope calculation uses the Ipman site's best speed (MNps) as denominator and a good value purchase price on eBay as numerator to come up with a value index for a high end TR CPU, although perhaps you guys have a better method of estimating bang-for-the-buck:

Assume cost of Ryzen Threadripper 3970X of $1800        Cost/MNps =  $1800/122 =   $14.75/Mnps
                        Ryzen Threadripper 3960X of $1350       Cost/MNps =  $1350/87.2 = $15.48    ($1485)

This still makes Ryzen Threadripper 3970X the best value, though not many 3970Xs for sale on eBay.
Parent - - By MrKris (***) Date 2020-07-27 09:08 Upvotes 1
Good luck! I finally read your posts carefully and see why you are thinking TR and not R7/R9.
Sorry about the huge post here, but I think it completes all that I know about anything even remotely relevant :) .

As above, fast memory (& low CL) at a good cost/performace ratio looks good. Depending on prices at the time you might go 3600Mhz.worst case stepping down similar to what I did:
Ryzen 7 2700X (zen1, 8c/16th) ; Balistix 3200 MHz, 2x16GB
My BIOS, the newer (to me!) 'GUI/graphical' style gave me two choices: 3200MHz & 2933MHz

I got an unexplained crash (1st week or so), switched to the slower option and it has never crashed again.
For my use it is not worth any time to look into. I did the below back then.

Ipman's benchmark asmFish and bench 1024 16 26:
XMP2 = 3200MHz ===========================
Total time (ms) : 142009
Nodes searched  : 3998521770
Nodes/second    : 28156819
XMP1 = 2933MHz ===========================
Total time (ms) : 167690
Nodes searched  : 4578119184
Nodes/second    : 27301086
XMP2 = 3200MHz #2 ===========================
Total time (ms) : 188658
Nodes searched  : 5201230167
Nodes/second    : 27569624
XMP1 = 2933MHz #2 ===========================
Total time (ms) : 175301
Nodes searched  : 4721992498
Nodes/second    : 26936483


I use an old Noctura 12 that came with 2 silent 120 fans that I had to get an adapter from them for Ryzen, its working fine.
My R7 is rated 105 Watts, the TR's are rated 280 Watts*, AMD's TDP. (I read a purchaser's review once that said nosier higher air-flow fans worked well with thier Noc., I have not needed to try that.)
*confirmed here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15044/the-amd-ryzen-threadripper-3960x-and-3970x-review-24-and-32-cores-on-7nm/2

The 'pro' review Web-sites for the Noctura-NH-U14S-TR4-SP3 that I found referenced the 1950X 16c/32th which was out when the Noc. TR4 came out.

(Years ago I meet a computer repair person that had never heard of 100% all cores chess engine load: "Are you sure your software is working right?")

Remember when 99% of purchasers in their reviews say 'full load' they mean their favorite new video game that their GPU is doing most of the work.
I found a couple of negative purchaser's reviews, but there were better at both:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/e50c2c/cpu_cooler_recommendations_for_threadripper_3970x/
-  - click 'View entire discussion' button - -
ChrisRocksGG 2 points ·5 months ago
"I have 74 degrees max with a Noctua NH-U14S and Kryonaut on my 3960x. (but my case is at the moment open). One thing I can say for sure. The Fan can not handle the CPU. It's throttling latest after 5 min of compiling shaders in Unreal. But the performance is still sick so I don't care at the moment :)"

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NH-U14S-TR4-SP3-Premium-Grade-Cooler/dp/B074DX2SX7#customerReviews
"2.0 out of 5 stars: Unable to cool the 3960x under heavy loads of all cores
Reviewed in the United States on January 21, 2020 Verified Purchase
Pros: Relatively easy to install. Quiet. Well built.
Cons: Even with the 2nd 140mm fan installed, it cannot keep a 3960x CPU from exceeding the thermal throttle temperature when all cores are fully loaded for more than 2 to 3 minutes.

Noctua support was contacted prior to purchase and specifically asked whether this unit could keep a 3960x from exceeding the throttle temperature under all core loads. They confirmed that it had been tested and would keep the CPU beneath its thermal throttle even under lengthy loads of all cores.

This proved not to be the case. Temperatures quickly exceeded 90C when strenuous workloads were put to the CPU.
Noctua support was again contacted to determine weather the unit was defective or if there had been an installation error. This time, Noctua support stated that temperatures in this range were to be expected.

At temperatures that high, the CPU slows itself. So by Noctua support's admission, the U14S is clearly not capable of keeping a 3960x within its temperature specifications under all core loads."

Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3 $79.90 Amazon, 280W manf. rating
Silver Arrow TR4 Brand: Thermalright $89.99 Amazon, 320W manf. rating - an idea from the reddit thread above
(Noctura has always been good, but Thermalright (good name) had the very first really good one, I can not remember its name, that everyone raved about at the time - a long time ago.)
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-27 19:06 Edited 2020-07-28 00:43
I am glad that you got into the issues with your Noctua NH-U14S and 3960x. On Talkchess and Newegg, everyone raves about the Noctua NH-U14S.
On two older systems, I have water cooling that has worked fine for years. So I was a bit suspicious that air cooling, no matter how wonderful, can do the job on CPUs like the AMD TR 3960X, let alone 3970X.
So maybe I have to rethink the cooling. Did you replace your Noctua NH-U14S with water cooling? Temps above 80C for the long term seem too risky.

  Kris, was that your experience with the Noctua NH-U14S and 3960X at 90C?

5/19/20 Best CPU Coolers for AMD Ryzen Threadripper CPUs (Review Roundup)
  https://www.cgdirector.com/best-cpu-coolers-ryzen-threadripper/

Threadripper CPU package requires a specially-designed base plate to provide full coverage of the processor’s IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader).
1) While the HSF coolers on our list all come with extended base plates to ensure maximum contact with the IHS, most AIO coolers haven’t made that step yet, and still use circular cold plates that leave the edges of the IHS exposed. AIO coolers available for Threadripper CPUs therefore aren’t cooling as efficiently as they could, allowing the HSF coolers to match (and even exceed) their performance.
2) HSF coolers have fewer moving parts (and thus fewer points of failure) than AIO liquid cooler and the best ones on our list even outperform most AIO coolers.
Dark Rock Pro TR4 is the best performing HSF cooler available in the market today.
https://www.cgdirector.com/best-cpu-coolers-ryzen-threadripper/

  Score HSF 2 and AIO liquid 0. 
  
But when a CPU (especially an overclocked one) is dealing with extended load, the heat generated could overwhelm an HSF cooler eventually.This is where the AIO shines. Since water can absorb a lot more heat before its temperature rises significantly, an AIO allows the processor to run overclocked (both automatic and manual overclock) for longer durations without throttling. Other benefits of AIO coolers include the fact that unlike HSF coolers, clearance issues with RAM slots and the first PCI-E slot are easy to avoid as the AIO radiator can be installed away from the motherboard (in a sufficiently large PC-Case).
   Thermaltake Water 3.0 is the best AIO cooler.
   Score AIO 1 to 0 for HSF when doing overnight analysis day after day.
Parent - By MrKris (***) Date 2020-07-28 19:53 Upvotes 1
No that was from someone at Amazon

- I just have a R7 2700X & old Noctura 12 (at my 105W it is fine).

Web-search: '3960X cooling'

One example:
Cooling hell: Threadripper 3960X
https://www.reddit.com/r/threadripper/comments/e7dkuy/cooling_hell_threadripper_3960x/
_ _ _
 

> So maybe I have to rethink the cooling. Did you replace your Noctua NH-U14S with water cooling? Temps above 80C for the long term seem too risky.


I looks to me that the tiny minority, professionals,  with an actual all-cores @ 100% load long term requirement can not get down to 80C with HSF or AIO.

But, I am sure with your experiecne you will do fine.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2020-07-25 23:12

>Memory: G.Skill Trident Z RGB 128 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16


I think you meant 4 x 32 GB, as 8x32 GB would be 256 GB. I know it's nitpicking but I couldn't help it : )
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2020-07-26 01:51
That is correct.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / New Chess rig

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