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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian III
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-07-06 05:38
Since the last time we played the 3...Nf6 lines were refuted to a clear white advantage so I'll be sticking with 3...Bc5 from now on. Good luck!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5

r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-08-05 06:05
4. 0-0

r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 4
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-08-07 20:34
And the race is on!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6

r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-08-08 10:28
5. d3
r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 5
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-08-10 03:41
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6

r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-08-13 17:51
6. c3
r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 6
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-08-16 07:10
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5

r1bqk2r/1pp2ppp/2np1n2/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-08-24 12:20 Edited 2020-08-24 12:27
7. Re1

r1bqk2r/1pp2ppp/2np1n2/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQR1K1 b kq - 0 7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-08-25 05:21
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6

r1bqk2r/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQR1K1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-09-07 03:41
8. Nbd2

r1bqk2r/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQR1K1 b kq - 0 8
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-09-07 15:33
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O

r1bq1rk1/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-09-07 19:51
9. Nf1
r1bq1rk1/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 9
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-09-07 23:26
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/2npbn1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-09-15 04:13
10. Bb5
r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/2npbn1p/pBb1p3/4P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 10
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-09-15 08:59
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1bnpbn1p/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-09-23 09:23
11. h3
r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1bnpbn1p/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 11
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-09-23 13:03
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7

r2q1rk1/1pp1npp1/1b1pbn1p/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-10-10 14:44
12. d4
r2q1rk1/1pp1npp1/1b1pbn1p/pB2p3/3PP3/2P2N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 12
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-10-12 18:50
Backsolved score: -0.03 (black edge)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. d4 exd4

r2q1rk1/1pp1npp1/1b1pbn1p/pB6/3pP3/2P2N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-10-25 06:37

>Backsolved score: -0.03 (black edge)


There is no black edge even in dreams.

13. Nd4

r2q1rk1/1pp1npp1/1b1pbn1p/pB6/3NP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 13
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-10-29 06:45

> There is no black edge even in dreams.


At this time control not even white has an edge in the opening position, but you know what I mean.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7

r2q1rk1/1ppbnpp1/1b1p1n1p/pB6/3NP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-11-01 13:46

>At this time control not even white has an edge in the opening position, but you know what I mean


It doesnot mean black has advanatge. It means position is equal.

r2q1rk1/1ppBnpp1/1b1p1n1p/p7/3NP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 b - - 0 14


14. Bd7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-11-09 08:29

> It doesnot mean black has advanatge. It means position is equal.


Can you show me a position that you have as -0.03 so we can compare? Because to me 0.00 means the position is equal. Then I have a series of positions scored -0.01 which mean black has a slight edge. A series of positions where the score is -0.02, so black's slight edge's is a bit higher. And a series of positions scored -0.03, where we are.

If all of these look like 0.00s to you, you lack precision.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7 14. Bxd7 Qxd7

r4rk1/1ppqnpp1/1b1p1n1p/p7/3NP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-11-09 08:56

>Can you show me a position that you have as -0.03


I don't need to. There is no difference between 0.00 and +-0.003.

>If all of these look like 0.00s to you, you lack precision.


And u lack common sense.
Your eval is respective to your program and my eval is to my program.
How the hell u assume i am using same program and methods ? lol
I have score 0.12 in my moves and i still say it equal as the diff is meaningless unless u r half pawn ahead.

15. Ng3

r4rk1/1ppqnpp1/1b1p1n1p/p7/3NP3/2P3NP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 b - - 0 15
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-11-25 05:36

> I don't need to. There is no difference between 0.00 and +-0.003.


But what about the difference between 0.00 and +-0.03 or 0.00 and +-0.30? When does the difference start? Because if it starts at +-0.50 then you're supposed to use the numbers 0.01 to 0.49 to measure the chance of going from 0.00 to 0.50, in the same way 1.d4 and 1.Nf3 aren't the same.

And, nice graphic, heh, I've never been a fan of big numbers, being always a minimalist, but NNUE allows to produce big numbers at the same quality of the small numbers of years gone by, so at least I beat you in that front, though who knows by how much...



According to you Ng6 is equal to a4 and Rae8? :eek:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7 14. Bxd7 Qxd7 15. Ng3 Ng6

r4rk1/1ppq1pp1/1b1p1nnp/p7/3NP3/2P3NP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-11-25 05:51

>But what about the difference between 0.00 and +-0.03 or 0.00 and +-0.30?


Noise due to contempt. No meaning in long run.

>When does the difference start? Because if it starts at +-0.50


Depends on the position. I have drawn games at eval of -2.00 in few games in endgames long back.

>heh, I've never been a fan of big numbers, being always a minimalist,


Then u dont understand statistics. Few = Noise. Larger N fewer error margin.

> but NNUE allows to produce big numbers at the same quality of the small numbers of years gone by, so at least I beat you in that front,


LOL Do u think I am dumb enough not to know that ?
Still Big means better eval of position. No noise be it NNUE or whatever.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-11-25 06:06
16. Ndf5

r4rk1/1ppq1pp1/1b1p1nnp/p4N2/4P3/2P3NP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 b - - 0 16
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-12-09 01:18

>Depends on the position. I have drawn games at eval of -2.00 in few games in endgames long back.


Those -2.00s should have been 0.00s then. -2 means a two pawn disadvantage, if there wasn't any win then there wasn't any disadvantage.

The whole paradigm with the scores is that they should apply no matter the position, a 0.56 would be preferable over a 0.55, no matter if one goes to a Ruy Lopez and the other goes to a Queen's Gambit, entirely different positions, yet the number should tell you which way to go without having to check where they go (you already visited the positions and checked where they went, when assigning the number, unless you let some dumb algorithm like IDeA do it...)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7 14. Bxd7 Qxd7 15. Ng3 Ng6 16. Ndf5 Rfe8

r3r1k1/1ppq1pp1/1b1p1nnp/p4N2/4P3/2P3NP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-12-12 15:24

>Those -2.00s should have been 0.00s then. -2 means a two pawn disadvantage, if there wasn't any win then there wasn't any disadvantage.


that sud b visible to the program in analysis. Hence u comparing your eval and mine is pointless to an extent as we dont know what is the main analysis engine we are using.
As for me +-1.00 is equal in most of the cases.

17. Be3

r3r1k1/1ppq1pp1/1b1p1nnp/p4N2/4P3/2P1B1NP/PP3PP1/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 17
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-12-24 19:34

> that sud b visible to the program in analysis. Hence u comparing your eval and mine is pointless to an extent as we dont know what is the main analysis engine we are using.


I'm not talking about the score shown by any engine, but about your own eval you come up with after checking them out. If all engines show some 3.00 for a drawn position, your own eval must be 0.00, it doesn't matter if 0.00 doesn't come from any engine.

>As for me +-1.00 is equal in most of the cases.


Your 1.00 sounds like my 0.10, then. The difference is I'd save the other 0.11-0.99 evals for something useful, while for you it's still "equal in most cases".

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7 14. Bxd7 Qxd7 15. Ng3 Ng6 16. Ndf5 Rfe8 17. Be3 Bxe3

r3r1k1/1ppq1pp1/3p1nnp/p4N2/4P3/2P1b1NP/PP3PP1/R2QR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-12-24 19:50

> but about your own eval you come up with after checking them out. If all engines show some 3.00 for a drawn position, your own eval must be 0.00,


We are not chess programs. We dont spit up evals. Humans eval different way

>Your 1.00 sounds like my 0.10, then.


Irrelevant as its relative

>The difference is I'd save the other 0.11-0.99 evals for something useful, while for you it's still "equal in most cases".


What works well i know and works with me.  I always speak in view of results. IF u couldn't beat me or I couldn't position was equal roughly.
Since analysis methods varies all i see what works well with me thats why i have a better score with u than u have with me.

18. Re3

r3r1k1/1ppq1pp1/3p1nnp/p4N2/4P3/2P1R1NP/PP3PP1/R2Q2K1 b - - 0 18
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2021-01-03 03:56

>Humans eval different way


So how do you eval? Because at the end there's some principal line (best moves by both sides) and a way from the root to get there. Analysis methods just get to this line faster.

>Irrelevant as its relative


You still have to explain the difference between your +-1.00 and your +-0.99, because I don't see one, and you were the one posting a screenshot of moves sorted by score.

>i have a better score with u than u have with me


That was because of your better understanding of the Spanish, a better chess knowledge can be more important than an analysis method. My analysis has sufficed to equalize the Italian every time...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. c3 a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. d4 exd4 13. Nxd4 Bd7 14. Bxd7 Qxd7 15. Ng3 Ng6 16. Ndf5 Rfe8 17. Be3 Bxe3 18. Rxe3 Re5

r5k1/1ppq1pp1/3p1nnp/p3rN2/4P3/2P1R1NP/PP3PP1/R2Q2K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2021-01-03 19:14

>So how do you eval?


The way humans do. We are not programs spitting out numbers.

>You still have to explain the difference between your +-1.00 and your +-0.99, because I don't see one, and you were the one posting a screenshot of moves sorted by score.


Its your argument not mine. +1.00 is pawn up simply. 0.99-0.00 isn't simply put.

>That was because of your better understanding of the Spanish, a better chess knowledge can be more important than an analysis method.


Absolutely rubbish. Your chess knowledge and skill steers ones analysis skill. A GM on a single core will do better analysis than a novice on a 16 core hardware provided both have equal knowledge on computers or using same analysis skill using comps.
SGM Anand won three times Advanced chess tour at Leion when opponents had similar pc and database with them.

The Indian grandmaster Viswanathan Anand is considered the world's best Advanced Chess player, winning the three consecutive Advanced Chess tournaments in Leon in 1999, 2000 and 2001, before losing the title to Vladimir Kramnik in 2002. After the loss to Kramnik, Anand said:

"I think in general people tend to overestimate the importance of the computer in the competitions. You can do a lot of things with the computer but you still have to play good chess. I more or less managed to do so except for this third game. In such a short match, against a very solid and hard to beat opponent, this turned out to be too much but I don’t really feel like that the computer alone can change the objective true to the position."


>My analysis has sufficed to equalize the Italian every time...


In italian its easy to draw as its a dead opening already. Its suited for OTB play not for CC play as barely anyone plays in CC seriously. If u can WIN one convincingly then it would be an example of your so called analysis skill.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2021-01-23 06:07

> If u can WIN one convincingly then it would be an example of your so called analysis skill.


That's impossible when you didn't even send a move...
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2021-01-26 19:50

>That's impossible when you didn't even send a move...


:twisted::twisted::twisted:

19. c4

r5k1/1ppq1pp1/3p1nnp/p3rN2/2P1P3/4R1NP/PP3PP1/R2Q2K1 b - - 0 19
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian III

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