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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-02-27 23:52
Thanks for accepting my challenge Master Om. I have 3...Nf6 as better but 4.Ng5 remains as an explosive nightmare so I can't risk going there.

Have fun!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5

r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-02-29 03:03
4. 0-0
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-02 07:32
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6

r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-02 08:37
5. d3
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-02 23:52
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6

r1bqk1nr/ppp2ppp/2np4/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-03 17:24
5. c3
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-04 23:29
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. c3 Nf6

r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-06 14:41
0-0
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-08 11:48
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. c3 Nf6 6. O-O a5

r1bqk2r/1pp2ppp/2np1n2/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-09 18:49
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. c3 Nf6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-17 15:45
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6

r1bqk2r/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQR1K1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-17 15:54
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-17 15:58
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O

r1bq1rk1/1pp2pp1/2np1n1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-17 16:58
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-17 18:27
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/2npbn1p/p1b1p3/2B1P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-18 12:55
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-19 01:04
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1bnpbn1p/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-19 08:54
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-19 22:20
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7

r2q1rk1/1pp1npp1/1b1pbn1p/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQRNK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-22 10:08
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-23 01:05
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b1pbnnp/pB2p3/4P3/2PP1NNP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-23 04:34
Surprising move!! I  Wouldn't have played it.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-23 05:42 Edited 2020-03-23 05:50

> Surprising move!! I  Wouldn't have played it.


I don't know if I'd have played it either, I'm just relaying book moves like a parrot.

This book leads to positions where black has an edge on the Italian on some 12+2 time control, I'm checking if these lines hold up at correspondence time controls.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b1pbnnp/pB6/3pP3/2P2NNP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-23 07:16
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 *

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b1pbnnp/pB6/3PP3/5NNP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 b - - 0 14
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-23 22:56
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b2bnnp/pB1p4/3PP3/5NNP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By farseer (*) Date 2020-03-23 23:50 Upvotes 1
If your book shows an advantage for black in this position, I wouldn't use it! :lol:

Black must work for the draw.  Go Master Om, go...
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-24 00:46

> If your book shows an advantage for black in this position, I wouldn't use it! :lol:


I've been talking specifically about positions where Stockfish would show some 0.50 advantage for white but it's black with the edge, so engine's scores become unreliable on the critical lines.
Parent - By farseer (*) Date 2020-03-24 18:15
I wouldn't use such simple means to evaluate this position.  I'm assuming you have a bunch of IDeA type analysis here.  You aren't alone. ;)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-25 16:55
IMHO U missed a counter chance. Now black only plays in response to what white plays.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-26 08:16

> IMHO U missed a counter chance. Now black only plays in response to what white plays.


Maybe we can try that later with reversed colors? Other than another line with a different 6th black move, I have all other black alternatives as 0.00 or with white edge.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b2b1np/pB1pP3/3Pn3/5NNP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-26 13:32

>Maybe we can try that later with reversed colors? Other than another line with a different 6th black move,


Okay. But its not at 6th move. I feel at 12.

>I have all other black alternatives as 0.00 or with white edge.


:roll::eek:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-26 15:15

> I feel at 12.


I have 12...Nd7 and 12...c6 with clear white advantage around here.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b2b1np/p2pP3/3P4/3B1NnP/PP3PP1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-26 15:29
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 *

r2q1rk1/1pp2pp1/1b2b1np/p2pP3/3P4/3B1NPP/PP4P1/R1BQR1K1 b - - 0 17


>I have 12...Nd7 and 12...c6 with clear white advantage around here.


Eval w.r.t which engine ?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-27 01:39

> Eval w.r.t which engine ?


These are "fudged evals", manually adjusted to reflect reality, in theory.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/1b2b1np/p1ppP3/3P4/3B1NPP/PP4P1/R1BQR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-29 12:47
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 *

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/1b2b1np/p1ppP3/3P4/3BBNPP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 18
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-29 13:00

>U can't play novelty in oldest and heavily analyzed lines.
>same applies to najdorf or marshall too.


Someone has to play a novelty eventually, unless we end playing an already played game up to a draw. It would say a lot if with unlimited time controls we can't improve over some 12+2 game, though :roll:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7
12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/1b2b1np/p2pP3/3p4/3BBNPP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-29 13:46

>Someone has to play a novelty eventually,


When main lines are over may be in late middle game.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4 19. Bxd4 *

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/1b2b1np/p2pP3/3B4/3B1NPP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 19
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-29 14:48

> When main lines are over may be in late middle game.


Hopefully in a position where I'm happy I have the black pieces.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4 19. Bxd4 Bxd4+

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/4b1np/p2pP3/3b4/3B1NPP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-29 15:44
There is nothing for black in italian except drawing not even a novelty.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4 19. Bxd4 Bxd4+ 20. Nxd4 *

r2q1rk1/1p3pp1/4b1np/p2pP3/3N4/3B2PP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 20
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-29 16:39

> There is nothing for black in italian except drawing not even a novelty.


I don't need to win the game, just reach a position where even you'd prefer the black side. Since white has nothing better it'd demonstrate black can force an edge. At least from here I have white with 0% chance of regaining its edge.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 a5 8. h3 h6 9. Bb5 Bb6 10. Nbd2 Be6 11. Nf1 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4 19. Bxd4 Bxd4+ 20. Nxd4 Qg5

r4rk1/1p3pp1/4b1np/p2pP1q1/3N4/3B2PP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 w - -
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-30 08:47

>I don't need to win the game,


Black never wins when white does not blunder. Black starts with a half tempo down.
In this game black is never in the position to win if main lines are played correctly.

> just reach a position where even you'd prefer the black side.


Only if white blunders.

>Since white has nothing better it'd demonstrate black can force an edge.


This is not practically possible at top level game.

>At least from here I have white with 0% chance of regaining its edge.


It was long before when i played c3.

[Result "*"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 a5 8. h3
h6 9. Bb5 Bb6 10. Nbd2 Be6 11. Nf1 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 Ne4 16. Bd3 Nxg3 17. fxg3 c5 18. Be3 cxd4 19. Bxd4 Bxd4+ 20. Nxd4 Qg5 21.
Bxg6 *


r4rk1/1p3pp1/4b1Bp/p2pP1q1/3N4/6PP/PP4P1/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 21
Parent - - By farseer (*) Date 2020-03-29 21:59
Hmmm,  19 Bf2 shows better.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-30 08:48
Yes. But I played through and didn't  find any advantage.
Parent - - By farseer (*) Date 2020-03-26 18:38 Edited 2020-03-26 21:34
First I don't have a ton of analysis on the Italian, but I agree with Master Om.  All the moves up until Ng6 were reasonable.  Not every move agreed with my data, but my data is a bit light here.  That said, 12. ... Ng6 was the single largest jump in score for white so far.  White is not winning to be sure, but I'd say black has made his job more complex.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2020-03-27 01:40

> I'd say black has made his job more complex.


That's not necessarily a bad thing. If black wants to win simplifying the job just leads to a draw.

Note I'm still deep in book, Om hasn't played a novelty yet. These positions were analyzed months before the game started.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-29 12:45

>Om hasn't played a novelty yet


U can't play novelty in oldest and heavily analyzed lines.
same applies to najdorf or marshall too.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-25 16:54
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 exd4 14. cxd4 d5 15.
e5 *
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2020-03-23 04:39
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. O-O a5 7. Re1 h6 8. Nbd2
O-O 9. Nf1 Be6 10. Bb5 Bb6 11. h3 Ne7 12. Ng3 Ng6 13. d4 *
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Busted Italian

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