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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / ChessOK Aquarium 2020 Root Node button to select all moves?
- - By Heer (*) Date 2020-01-13 09:50
I want to use the advantage of the "root node" button for every position of my played games.

But I don't want to hit it 50 to 100 times and also clicking on every move in the notation, which were played in the game and then clicking after every move the root node button again.

I need a "all positions to root node" button.
Parent - By Sanaz (*) Date 2020-01-13 12:07
Me too.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2020-01-13 17:59
I understand your desire for this feature, but I think this falls in the category of "be careful what you wish for".

I think you should try it manually at least once and see what happens.  My best bet is that you will overcome the program with node generation... my copy (of AQ 2017) grinds to a halt when I reach around 20,000 events in queue to be analyzed.  Which I can see quite easily when trying to analyze a single position (some of them anyhow) in the Najdorf variation.  If I tried placing a root node at every position of the game (which sounds interesting in theory) becomes a block of ice in practice.

Or you are not going to analyze the positions to any great depth... in which case, why bother?  Just use the "All Positions" button (but personally I think that is a waste of time).
Parent - - By Heer (*) Date 2020-01-22 17:34
But I know what I need.
It's also easy to delete root nodes.
If someone doesn't want to use this button, then he shouldn't do it.
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2020-01-22 19:01
Well, yes, but I don't think that's how they decide what features to work on...

If they are smart, they look at their market - i.e. what many people think would be good features for them to invest time and money into development.

There are plenty of features that I alone have asked for... being alone, I was pretty much ignored.

Not completely, but pretty much.  If they were kind, they at least told me that what I wanted wasn't worth their investment.

So good luck with your feature request.  I hope you have better luck than I did... seriously.
Parent - - By Heer (*) Date 2020-01-22 19:11
That means if I contact them and ask if it is okay to get this feature if I pay X money for the work, then it would be okay.
I mean why not... to pay some money for some time of work to get a feature I need. I think this is fair.
Parent - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2020-01-22 19:19
I think its fair.  But they may ask for a lot of money.  Time and labor is expensive.
Parent - - By mattchess (**) Date 2020-01-23 00:07
What behavior are you trying to get by making them all root nodes that you don't get from All Positions?  If you add all the moves from a game as root nodes then isn't the first move in the game by definition the root node since the tree will be expanded from there unless you deactivate it - and then it will be expanded from the next root node.  In other words if you have root nodes later in the game that you can arrive to from an earlier root node position then effectively it is part of the tree of the earlier root node and redundant.  At least that is my understanding.  On the other hand if you want multiple root nodes to force IDEA to expand the tree from multiple candidate moves I think you can achieve that by marking those candidate moves as "good" moves which will direct IDEA to focus on them.

I am curious because maybe my understanding is incorrect in which case I would like to improve my understanding.

My guess is there would be a way to do what you want (marking them all as root nodes) using a script - but I don't know how to do that.
Parent - - By Heer (*) Date 2020-01-26 07:40
I want to use "all root node" for the analysis of my played games.

If you have 1 root node = 100% time will be used for it.
If you have 10 root nodes = exactly 10% will be used for each root node.
That is a big difference in what you will get from an analysis and also how fast you will get it.

A script could help but I don't know how to do "all root node".
Parent - - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2020-01-26 17:46
Actually, yes, it does make sense to have more than 1 root node.  Often I use 2-3 or 4.  But here are some points (just applies to my own work and experience, your mileage may vary):

1. It is not true that you have to place a root node on a position in order for it to be analyzed.  If you just have 1 root node, IDeA will, over time, analyze all downstream nodes... and it will continue to do so until you stop it.  Doing more and more nodes into infinity (I have trees that exceed 5 million nodes).

2.  In my experience, I place a new root node on positions that I think are critical.  it adds emphasis to those nodes and forces IDeA to begin to analyze the position in more depth from an earlier stage.  In extreme cases, I have had trees with up to 10 root nodes (simultaneously).  These being placed at crucial positions, that in my opinion, require deeper immediate analysis.

3.  In my opinion, to place root nodes on EVERY position in a game is not necessary.  And would cause IDeA to analyze in depth many positions that do not call for it.

From what you have written in this forum, I believe you are doing post-game analysis.  I almost never do that... except to add games to my main opening trees.  I use IDeA to analyze games in progress.  Which means that I am always analyzing from the last move made by my opponent.  It would be pointless for me to analyze any of the previous moves, I am concentrated on all possible future moves.  Since I do not "know" what they are yet... your suggestion makes little sense to me... there may be millions of possible future moves, placing a root node on them would be tedious and really impossible in the extreme... like trying to count all the individual atoms in a glass of water!
Parent - - By mattchess (**) Date 2020-01-26 19:32
Thanks.  Since I use IDEA to analyze openings and or ICCF games in progress, I tend to be focused on specific positions as well.  Usually when I run IDEA, I am running it to analyze a specific position in a game in progress or a specific position of interest in an opening I am analyzing.

If analyzing an entire game wouldn't it make sense to work backwards from the last position in the game to the beginning of the game.  That way analysis of earlier positions would benefit from the analysis already completed in later positions.

What I do for analysis of a full game is full game analysis outside of IDEA, generating and storing X variations for each move to a specified depth Y.  Then I take that resulting PGN with all the resulting variations and copy it to my project, add all positions as tasks, and run IDEA.  Then I review the game move by move and decide how to proceed from there with further analysis.
Parent - By pawnslinger (****) Date 2020-01-26 23:26 Edited 2020-01-26 23:57


Sometimes when I DO analyze a complete game (my loses come to mind <grin>)... I start at the end of the game (in Sandbox) and work my way back to the beginning. I send the resulting positions to IDeA for analysis (to be added to my opening tree for that variation).  In this way, my opening trees evolve over time, learning from my mistakes.  I usually do this before I even decide what root node I want to actually use to perform the IDeA analysis.  In this manner, you can discover many alternative pathways that need further exploration.  In doing this, I try not to generate too many positions for IDeA, so I use a high bar for sending them over to IDeA from the Sandbox.  Lately I like to set the minimum ply to be just below (a bit) the analysis level in use by IDeA on this tree.  So I do get some good spread of alternatives, but nothing that would overwhelm IDeA with thousands of positions to check.

When I first started doing this, I used to send over a bunch more positions, it was not uncommon to see me send over more than 5,000 in a single go... currently, I am trending towards much less quantity, but more quality.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / ChessOK Aquarium 2020 Root Node button to select all moves?

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