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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / I fear that ...
- - By ChrisW (**) Date 2018-05-01 23:07
... the coming dominance of the Alpha Zero programs is going to result in an endless plague of forum posts of spectacular move of AZ analysed into the ground by Stockfish mainlines wth nobody involved having any real idea of who did what and why.

we will watch as the blind lead the incomprehending in ever smaller spirals to nowhere. It has already begun.

Good night!
Parent - - By leavenfish (***) [us] Date 2018-05-02 00:42 Upvotes 2
"wth nobody involved having any real idea of who did what and why...etc."

Uh, isn't that the nature of 'computer chess'?  A thing for people who don't enjoy actually playing the game and thinking for themselves. :wink:
Parent - - By ChrisW (**) Date 2018-05-02 15:05
is that sarcasm or irony?
Parent - - By leavenfish (***) [us] Date 2018-05-04 00:55
Sarcasm. WAY too many people push around engines and think they are accomplishing something of import.
Parent - - By ChrisW (**) Date 2018-05-04 09:09
yes, true. I've always seen comp chess from the development side, getting ideas to work and why, I never really understood how one got excited about engines from the point of view of a user.
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2018-05-04 09:28
They're a tool like many (own mind, literature, opening-trees, databases, tablebases, ...) to understand the game of chess a little more.

> I never really understood how one got excited about engines from the point of view of a user.


When you see a recent engine "understanding" one of your tricky corr-positions way better than those a few years back (where you had to work a lot around), this indeed is exciting!
Parent - - By ChrisW (**) Date 2018-05-07 15:07
yes, I see that. but, problem .... if the Oracle is not true? "Because Stockfish says" with some mainline stretching off into the distance is not my idea of chess, or logic for that matter.
Parent - By MarshallArts (***) [us] Date 2018-05-07 21:24
Especially if the oracle keeps changing its story every few years...

:neutral:
Parent - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2018-05-08 06:45
The Oracle is often wrong, just watch for +2.xx evals in table-base endgames, and consider that it sees that as absolutely winning (and aiming for it) 30 moves ahead... that's why its just ONE tool, and human-input still can add to the overall product.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2018-05-11 14:23
"I never really understood how one got excited about engines from the point of view of a user."
So true :-) . The only excitement is a stronger version, if it is much stronger and makes engine analysis more joyful. Nowadays this excitement is partly gone.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2018-05-10 03:20
Hi Chris,

> is that sarcasm or irony?


Well, it certainly goes under the heading of "irony" , your disapprobation, if not reproach - execration, in that it is something that is cursed or loathed. :smile:

Robert,
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2018-05-10 03:21

> A thing for people who don't enjoy actually playing the game and thinking for themselves. 


I do that myself once in awhile!
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [es] Date 2018-05-02 18:52

> ... the coming dominance of the Alpha Zero programs


Let's wait and see if that happens :wink:
Parent - - By ChrisW (**) Date 2018-05-02 19:29
it depends on whether or not you believe Stockfish search covers sufficient of the search space. my guess is that people are in for a nasty shock on that front
Parent - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [es] Date 2018-05-02 20:55
I hope you’re right. I’m itching to see a revolution in computer chess
Parent - - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2018-05-04 13:35 Edited 2018-05-04 13:39
Guys this could be the start of the beginning of the end. First Go then Chess next the World Financial System :)

Hal Voice:
"Would you like to play a game?"

I have to admit I'm a little apprehensive to give up control to the machines :)

But I know it's already happening. Slowly losing my grasp of the tangible as it converts into 0's and 1's before my eyes.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2018-05-04 22:50
I don't want to beat them, I want to join them. Upgrade my brain into an ultra powerful AI plox.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2018-05-06 03:54 Edited 2018-05-06 03:59
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "freechess.org"]
[Date "2018.05.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lczero [251]"]
[Black "GrandDroid(stockfish 8 dev version 010418) blitz"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2831"]
[ECO "C68"]
[Opening "Spanish"]
[Time "22:42:44"]
[Variation "Exchange, Alapin Gambit"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]
[Comment "Game drawn by repetition 1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 {(e2-e4 c7-c5 Ng1-f3 d7-d6 Bf1-b5+ Nb8-d7 O-O Ng8-f6 Rf1-e1 e7-e6
c2-c3 Bf8-e7 d2-d4 O-O e4-e5 Nf6-d5 c3-c4) +0.12/19} e5 2. Nf3 {(Ng1-f3
Nb8-c6 Bf1-b5 Ng8-f6 O-O d7-d6 d2-d4 e5xd4 Nf3xd4 Bc8-d7 Nd4xc6 b7xc6
Bb5-d3 g7-g6 Rf1-e1 Bf8-g7 e4-e5 d6xe5 Re1xe5+ Bd7-e6) +0.15/19 3} Nc6 3.
Bb5 {(Bf1-b5 Ng8-f6 O-O d7-d6 d2-d4 e5xd4 Nf3xd4 Bc8-d7 Nb1-c3 Bf8-e7
Nd4-f5 Bd7xf5 e4xf5 d6-d5 Bc1-g5 O-O Bg5xf6 Be7xf6 Nc3xd5 Bf6xb2 Ra1-b1
Bb2-e5 Bb5xc6 b7xc6) +0.14/19 3} a6 4. Bxc6 {(Bb5xc6 d7xc6 O-O Bc8-g4 h2-h3
Bg4-h5 g2-g4 Bh5-g6 Nf3xe5 Qd8-h4 Qd1-f3 Bf8-d6 Ne5xg6 h7xg6 d2-d4 Qh4xh3
Qf3xh3 Rh8xh3 Kg1-g2 Rh3-h2+ Kg2-f3 Rh2-h3+ Kf3-e2 c6-c5 c2-c3 c5xd4)
+0.15/19 3} dxc6 5. O-O {(O-O Bc8-g4 h2-h3 Bg4-h5 g2-g4 Bh5-g6 Nf3xe5 f7-f6
Ne5xg6 h7xg6 Qd1-f3 Qd8-d7 d2-d4 O-O-O Nb1-c3 Qd7xd4 Rf1-d1 Qd4-e5 Rd1xd8+
Kc8xd8 Bc1-f4 Qe5-e6 Ra1-d1+ Kd8-c8 Qf3-d3) +0.12/20 4} Bg4 6. h3 {(h2-h3
Bg4-h5 g2-g4 Bh5-g6 Nf3xe5 f7-f6 Ne5xg6 h7xg6 Qd1-f3 Qd8-d7 d2-d4 O-O-O
Nb1-c3 Qd7xd4 Rf1-d1 Qd4-e5 Rd1xd8+ Kc8xd8 Bc1-f4 Qe5-e6 Ra1-d1+ Kd8-c8
Qf3-d3 Bf8-e7 Kg1-g2 Ng8-h6 Nc3-e2 Rh8-d8 Ne2-d4) +0.09/20 3} h5 7. d3
{(d2-d3 Qd8-f6 Nb1-d2 Ng8-e7 Rf1-e1 Ne7-g6 h3xg4 h5xg4 Nf3-h2 Rh8xh2 Qd1xg4
Rh2-h4 Qg4-f5 Qf6xf5 e4xf5 Ng6-e7 Re1xe5 f7-f6 Re5-e4 Rh4xe4 d3xe4 O-O-O
Kg1-f1 g7-g6) +0.24/18 3} Qf6 8. Be3 {(Bc1-e3 Bg4xf3 Qd1xf3 Qf6xf3 g2xf3
Ng8-e7 f3-f4 e5xf4 Be3xf4 O-O-O Bf4-e3 f7-f5 Nb1-d2 f5xe4 d3xe4 Ne7-g6
f2-f4 Bf8-b4 c2-c3 Bb4-e7 Kg1-f2 Rh8-f8) +0.33/20 5} Bxf3 9. Qxf3 {(Qd1xf3
Qf6xf3 g2xf3 Ng8-e7 f3-f4 e5xf4 Be3xf4 O-O-O Bf4-e3 g7-g5 Nb1-d2 Rh8-g8
Kg1-h2 f7-f5 Rf1-g1 f5-f4 Be3-c5 b7-b6 Bc5xe7 Bf8xe7 Nd2-f3 g5-g4) +0.38/20
2} Qxf3 10. gxf3 {(g2xf3 Ng8-e7 f3-f4 e5xf4 Be3xf4 O-O-O Nb1-d2 c6-c5
Bf4-e3 Ne7-c6 f2-f4 Nc6-b4 Rf1-c1 g7-g6 Nd2-f3 f7-f6 Kg1-f2 Bf8-d6)
+0.36/20 1} Bd6 11. Nd2 {(Nb1-d2 Ng8-e7 Kg1-h2 f7-f6 a2-a4 c6-c5 Nd2-c4
Ke8-d7 a4-a5 Ne7-c6) +0.26/20 7} f6 12. Nc4 {(Nd2-c4 Ng8-e7 Nc4xd6+ c7xd6
f3-f4 e5xf4 Be3xf4 d6-d5 Bf4-d6 d5xe4 d3xe4 Ra8-d8 Ra1-d1 Ke8-f7 Bd6-c5
Ne7-g6 f2-f4 Rd8xd1) +0.09/20 7} g5 13. d4 {(d3-d4 e5xd4 Be3xd4 Ke8-f7
Ra1-d1 Ng8-e7 e4-e5 f6xe5 Nc4xe5+ Bd6xe5 Bd4xe5 Rh8-e8 Be5xc7 Ne7-d5 Bc7-a5
Re8-e2 Ba5-d2 Kf7-g6 Rf1-e1) +0.41/19 4} exd4 14. Bxd4 {(Be3xd4 Ke8-f7
e4-e5 f6xe5 Bd4xe5 Bd6xe5 Nc4xe5+ Kf7-f6 Ne5-d7+ Kf6-f5 Rf1-e1 Rh8-h7
Nd7-c5 b7-b6 Nc5-d3 Rh7-e7 Re1xe7 Ng8xe7 Ra1-e1 Ne7-g6 Re1-e4) +0.40/20 3}
Kf7 15. e5 {(e4-e5 f6xe5 Bd4xe5 Bd6xe5 Nc4xe5+ Kf7-f6 Ne5-d7+ Kf6-f5 Rf1-e1
Rh8-h7 Ra1-d1 Rh7-e7 Nd7-c5 b7-b6 Nc5-d3 Ra8-e8 Re1xe7 Re8xe7 Nd3-b4 c6-c5
Nb4-d5 Re7-d7 Nd5-e3+ Kf5-e6) +0.30/20 4} fxe5 16. Nxe5+ {(Nc4xe5+ Bd6xe5
Bd4xe5 Ng8-f6 Be5xc7 Nf6-d5 Bc7-e5 Rh8-e8 Ra1-e1 Ra8-d8 Re1-e4 Nd5-f6
Be5xf6 Kf7xf6 Re4xe8 Rd8xe8 Rf1-d1 Re8-e2 Rd1-d6+ Kf6-e5 Rd6-d7) +0.38/20
4} Bxe5 17. Bxe5 {(Bd4xe5 Ng8-f6 Be5xc7 Nf6-d5 Bc7-e5 Rh8-e8 Ra1-e1 Ra8-d8
Re1-e4 Nd5-f6 Be5xf6 Kf7xf6 Re4xe8 Rd8xe8 Rf1-d1 Re8-e2 Rd1-d6+ Kf6-e5
Rd6-d7 Re2xc2) +0.42/20 1} Nf6 18. Rae1 {(Ra1-e1 Rh8-e8 f3-f4 g5xf4 Be5xf4
Nf6-d5 Bf4-g5 Nd5-b4 Re1xe8 Ra8xe8 Rf1-d1 Nb4xc2 Rd1-d7+ Kf7-g6 Bg5-d2
Re8-e2 Kg1-f1 Re2-e6 Rd7xc7) +0.45/20 4} Rad8 19. Kg2 {(Kg1-g2 Rd8-d2 c2-c4
Rh8-e8 Be5-c3 Rd2-c2 Re1-c1 Rc2xc1 Rf1xc1 Re8-e2 Rc1-d1 b7-b5 Rd1-d8 b5xc4
Bc3xf6 Kf7xf6 Rd8-f8+) +0.26/19 6} Rd2 20. c4 {(c2-c4 Rh8-e8 Be5-c3 Rd2-c2
Re1-c1 Rc2xc1 Rf1xc1 Re8-e2 Rc1-d1 b7-b5 Kg2-f1 Re2-c2 Rd1-d8 b5-b4 Bc3xb4
Rc2xb2 a2-a3) +0.05/19 3} Re8 21. Bc3 {(Be5-c3 Rd2-e2 Re1xe2 Re8xe2 Rf1-d1
b7-b5 a2-a3 Re2-c2 c4xb5 a6xb5 f3-f4 g5xf4 Kg2-f3 Nf6-d5 Bc3-e5) -0.04/20
6} Rde2 22. Rxe2 {(Re1xe2 Re8xe2 Rf1-d1 b7-b5 c4xb5 a6xb5 f3-f4 Nf6-e4
Kg2-f3 Ne4xc3 b2xc3 Re2xa2 f4xg5 Ra2-c2 Rd1-d7+ Kf7-g6 h3-h4 Rc2xc3+ Kf3-e4
Rc3-c4+ Ke4-e5 Rc4-c5+ Ke5-e4 Rc5-c4+) -0.16/20 5} Rxe2 23. h4 {(h3-h4
g5xh4 Rf1-h1 h4-h3+ Rh1xh3 b7-b5 Rh3-h4 Kf7-g6 Kg2-g3 b5-b4 Bc3xf6 Kg6xf6
Rh4xh5 Re2xb2 Rh5-a5 Rb2-c2 Ra5xa6 Rc2xc4 f3-f4 Kf6-e6 Kg3-g4) -0.07/20 6}
gxh4 24. Rh1 {(Rf1-h1 Kf7-g6 Rh1xh4 b7-b5 a2-a3 Re2-e6 Rh4-d4 Re6-d6 Rd4-f4
Nf6-d7 Rf4-e4 Nd7-c5 Re4-e7 Nc5-e6 Bc3-e5) +0.04/19 2} Kg6 25. Rxh4
{(Rh1xh4 b7-b5 a2-a3 Re2-c2 Rh4-f4 Nf6-d7 Kg2-g3 c6-c5 Rf4-e4 Kg6-f7
Re4-f4+ Kf7-e6 Rf4-e4+ Ke6-f7 Re4-f4+ Kf7-e6 Rf4-e4+ Ke6-f5) -0.03/19 2}
Kf5 26. Rd4 {(Rh4-d4 Re2-e8 Rd4-d3 Re8-g8+ Kg2-h3 Nf6-h7 Bc3-d2 Nh7-g5+
Bd2xg5 Rg8xg5 Rd3-d7 Kf5-f4 Rd7-f7+ Rg5-f5 Rf7xc7 Kf4xf3 Rc7xb7 Rf5-f4
Rb7-b6 Rf4xc4 Rb6xa6 Kf3xf2 a2-a4 Rc4-c1) +0.35/19 6} Re8 27. Kg3 {(Kg2-g3
Re8-g8+ Kg3-h3 b7-b5 a2-a3 Rg8-e8 Rd4-h4 Re8-e6 Bc3xf6 Re6xf6 Rh4xh5+
Kf5-f4 Kh3-g2 Rf6-g6+) +0.17/20 7} Rg8+ 28. Kh3 {(Kg3-h3 b7-b5 a2-a3 Nf6-h7
Kh3-h4 Nh7-f6 Kh4-h3 c6-c5 Rd4-d3 b5xc4 Rd3-d1 Kf5-f4 Bc3xf6 Kf4xf3 Rd1-d5
Kf3xf2 Rd5xc5) +0.10/20 5} b5 29. a3 {(a2-a3 Nf6-h7 Kh3-h4 Nh7-f6 Kh4-h3
Nf6-h7 Kh3-h4 Nh7-f6 c4xb5 a6xb5 a3-a4 Nf6-d5 a4xb5 Nd5xc3 b2xc3 c6xb5)
+0.02/19 4} Nh7 30. Kh4 {(Kh3-h4 Nh7-f6 Rd4-d1 Rg8-g2 Rd1-d8 b5xc4 Rd8-f8
Rg2-g6 Rf8-f7 Kf5-e6 Rf7xc7 Ke6-d6 Rc7-a7 Nf6-d5 Ra7xa6 Nd5xc3 b2xc3 Rg6-f6
Kh4-g3 h5-h4+ Kg3-g2 h4-h3+ Kg2-g3 Rf6-h6) +0.06/19 3} Rg2 31. cxb5 {(c4xb5
a6xb5 Rd4-d8 Nh7-f6 Rd8-f8 Rg2-g6 Rf8-f7 Kf5-e6 Rf7xc7 Ke6-d6 Rc7-f7 Nf6-d5
Rf7-g7 Rg6xg7 Bc3xg7 Nd5-f4 Bg7-c3 c6-c5 Kh4-g5 Nf4-d5 Kg5xh5 Nd5xc3 b2xc3
Kd6-d5) +0.69/19 6} axb5 32. Rd8 {(Rd4-d8 Nh7-f6 Rd8-f8 Rg2-g6 Rf8-f7
Kf5-e6 Rf7xc7 Ke6-d6 Rc7-a7 Nf6-d5 Bc3-d4 Rg6-g1 Kh4xh5 Nd5-f4+ Kh5-h4
Nf4-d3 Bd4-e3 Nd3xb2 f3-f4 Nb2-c4 f4-f5 Nc4xe3 f2xe3 Kd6-e5) +0.83/19 3}
Rxf2 33. Rh8 {(Rd8-h8 Kf5-f4 Kh4xh5 Kf4-f5 Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5 Kf4-f5
Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5) +0.73/19 5} Kf4 34. Kxh5 {(Kh4xh5 Kf4-f5 Kh5-h4
Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5 Kf4-f5 Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5) 0.00/19 4} Kf5 35. Kh4 {(Kh5-h4
Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5 Kf4-f5 Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5) 0.00/19 3} Kf4 36. Kh5 {(Kh4-h5
Kf4-f5 Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5) 0.00/19 2} Kf5 37. Kh4 {(Kh5-h4 Kf5-f4 Kh4-h5)
0.00/18 1} Kf4 38. Kh5 {(Kh4-h5) 0.00/12 2 3-fold repetition} ... {3-fold
repetition} 1/2-1/2


funny ending... It's getting stronger guys!! Time control 5 0! Black was running on a ZTE Speed" quad-core 1.2 GHz Snapdragon 410 and LCzero using the gpu compile was running on a laptop with a 980M NVIDIA card.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [es] Date 2018-05-10 19:18
What I fear is that progress has stalled. Hopefully it’s temporary
Parent - By Chris Whittington (**) [fr] Date 2018-05-10 19:32
Yeah, saw the dip
Parent - By Chris Whittington (**) [fr] Date 2018-05-11 12:46
Quite a dip, allegedly a bug and a gazillion non- experts posting random thoughts. I would guess that the real problem is the mass of not-experts critiques and proposals for this that and the other improvement: modification bla di bla. Development team crumbles under the mass critique pressure and tries to make patches and mods. When, best is to stick to the guns, ignore all the mass critique, which can never be answered because these people can never be satisfied.

Keep it simple, stupid. Few changes and test. Don't add any end user features, those can wait. Tell the why-don't-you-do-xyz people to go do it themselves. KISS is one of the necessary keys to the success of Stockfish. Shame if Leela doesn't make it because the competing Stockfish has better development structure.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / I fear that ...

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