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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / What happened to the King's Indian (in CC)?
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- - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 08:10
Until maybe two or three years ago the KID was one of the main weapons for correspodence players against 1.d4 as the engines were underestimating black's attack. Stockfish was especially suited for carrying out the black attack due it its strong selectivity. Nowadays the top cc players seem to prefer the closed Slav as it likely gives them a little more chances to win, at least if white tries to win.

How did the King's Indian get neutralized by white?
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-20 09:54
g3 variation is pretty ugly for black
he will have a hard fight to hold the draw
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [us] Date 2017-09-20 13:27
I dont agree. I have easily drawn in that line.
Rather the makogonov is a tricky one.
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 17:31
You mean as in this game?


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Be7 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Bg2
c6 9. e4 d5 10. exd5 exd5 11. O-O Re8 12. Re1 dxc4 13. bxc4 Bxc4 14. Ne5 Qxd4
15. Bg5 Qxc3 16. Rc1 Qa5 17. Rxc4 h6 18. Bd2 Qxa2 19. Rc2 Qa3 20. Nxc6 Nxc6 etc
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-21 00:20 Edited 2017-09-21 00:24
thats queens indian, and my opp made the mistake 10. - exd5?

cxd5 is equal
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 19:46
... or this variation with g3?

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. h3 e5 7. d5 Nh5 8. g3 *
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-21 02:40
This is makogonov. This is tricky. This is least explored. Karpov used to play that line. Black has to play precisely.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-23 17:04
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Event "Interzonal TT/9"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.03.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Santos, Marcos Antonio dos"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[BlackTeam "Africa Asia A"]
[Board "2"]
[ECO "E62"]
[WhiteElo "2433"]
[WhiteTeam "Latin America C"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.g3 O-O 6.Bg2 c6 7.O-O Qa5 8.e4 Nbd7 9.h3 e5 10.Re1 exd4 11.Nxd4 Ne5 12.Bf1 Qb6 13.Be3 c5 14.Nc2 Qxb2 15.Na4 Nf3+ 16.Kh1 Qe5 17.Qxf3 Qxe4 18.Qxe4 Nxe4 19.Rad1 Bd7 20.Nxc5 Nxc5 21.Rxd6 Rfc8 22.Bxc5 Ba4 23.Be3 Bxc2 24.Bg2 Rxc4 25.Rd7 Bc3 26.Re2 Bf5 27.Rxb7 Be6 28.Rxf7 Kxf7 29.Bxa8 a5 30.Kg2 1/2-1/2

Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 07:05
Engines do not understand the Fianchetto lines very well. IMO they are quite useless in these g3 lines.

Nevertheless, I think black has no problems, if he understands what he is doing.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 13:49
Exactly Sir, Play c6 and block all the battery :twisted:
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 15:14 Upvotes 1
I just released my six King's Indian testsets over here, maybe they are of interest to you:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=32292
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 15:57
Jeroen Sir, I did ask u about that and downloaded that.
Thanks for this effort sir.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 16:10
You're welcome! And please keep on playing the King's Indian :-).
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 17:22
Sir, Keep Playing and Keep losing :yell::yell::yell::yell::yell:
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 17:35
Sir, My First game in ICCF was kings indian and thats how I fell in love with opening.
[Event "S-Open/5-pr39"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2012.06.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Zielasko, Andreas"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E97"]
[WhiteElo "2135"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Nd2 Ne8 10.b4 f5 11.c5 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Nc4 g5 14.a4 Ng6 15.Nb5 a6 16.Nc3 h5 17.Ba3 g4 18.cxd6 cxd6 19.b5 Ne8 20.Qd2 Nh4 21.a5 gxf3 22.Bxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bg4 24.Rf2 h4 25.h3 Bh5 26.bxa6 Rxa6 27.Rc1 Bh6 28.Nb1 Rf6 29.Rc3 Qd7 30.Qe1 Rg6 31.Nbd2 Rg3 32.Nf1 Rxc3 33.Qxc3 Bg6 34.Nfd2 Bf8 35.Rf1 Qg7 36.Nb6 Nf6 37.Re1 Bh7 38.Qc8 Rxa5 39.Nbc4 f3 40.Nxf3 Rxa3 41.Nxa3 Bxe4 42.Rf1 Bxd5 43.Nc2 Nh5 44.Ne3 Nf4 45.Nxh4 Be6 46.Qe8 Bxh3 47.Kh2 Bd7 48.Qa8 Qh6 49.g3 Qe6 50.Nhf5 Qb3 51.Nh6+ Kg7 52.Nhg4 Bxg4 53.Nxg4 Qc2+ 54.Nf2 Qh7+ 55.Kg1 Qg6 56.Qxb7+ Kh8 57.Qf3 d5 58.Qg4 Bc5 59.Qxg6 Nxg6 60.Kg2 1/2-1/2

Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2017-09-29 16:30

> Exactly Sir, Play c6 and block all the battery <img title="twisted" class="fsm fsm_twisted" alt=":twisted:" src="/mwf/v12/epx.png" />


https://www.iccf.com/game?id=786390
Parent - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-29 18:04 Edited 2017-09-29 18:07
Veeeery nice win!

Guess he should have played 4..d5... but with hindsight it is always easy.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-30 15:50
The Problem is U were not playing me na.. :yell:

Black play is below par in this game. I see lots of loop holes starting with 9...Qb6. Better is Qa5
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-01 06:15
What is the OTB rating of this opponent?

I'd like to see a game between you and Master OM in this line :wink:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-10-02 13:06
Am ready. My analysis is Already ready in this line.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-02 18:02
Kreuzfahrtschiff is ready to play you!
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-02 20:27 Edited 2017-10-02 20:29
we can play in this forum
correspondence chess
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=32307
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-10-02 21:06
No problem. U set the position.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2017-09-26 22:10

> g3 variation is pretty ugly for black


IMHO as long as black sets up c6 and d5 pawns, he's ok.
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-27 09:02
thats true, but i meant d6 variations
grünfeld is draw
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-28 17:26
Nothing wrong with d6 setups either, as long as you don't believe too much what engines tell you :wink:

Nevertheless, c6 & d5 is of course easier. Also chosen by Kasparov in his matches with Karpov.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-28 19:25
i believe them and i win long corr games as well :)
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-29 04:07 Upvotes 1
That is because your opponents also believe them and play suboptimal :-).
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-29 09:39
everybody plays suboptimal, but its harder with a disadvantage to hold  :)
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-29 14:46 Upvotes 1
In the King's Indian the top engines 'believe' white is better by +0.50 or more in many lines. They are wrong :-).

I have done a few weeks of testing with Stockfish & Kotronias on the King's Indian volume 1 (Fianchetto lines). Kotronias warns 'don't believe the engines' in many places and I found out he is correct.

In the g3 King's Indian it is crucial what to do with the knight on d7. In some lines it is best placed on c5, in others on e5. But there are also lines in which it is best to keep it on d7 and go for a setup with a6, Rb8 and b5. Stockfish has no clue about this and puts the Nd7 on the wrong square on many occasions.

Hence I firmly believe that Kotronias (or another strong King's Indian expert) will have no trouble in drawing this line as black in a correspondence game.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-29 16:26
i would bet on me if he wants to try, he is only human

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000018"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2017.07.01"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Domanov,Dmitry"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "2435"]
[BlackElo "2307"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 c6 9.Qc2 Qe7 10.b3 Re8 11.d5 cxd5 12.cxd5 b6 13.Bg5 a5 14.Rfc1 h6 15.Be3 Ng4 16.Bd2 Nc5 17.h3 Nf6 18.Be3 Ba6 19.Ne1 Rec8 20.Qd1 Qe8 21.a3 b5 22.b4 axb4 23.axb4 Na4 24.Nxa4 Rxc1 25.Bxc1 Bc8 26.Nc2 bxa4 27.Na3 Bd7 28.Be3 Rb8 29.Rb1 h5 30.Qd2 *

Game 91791     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000016"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2016.03.02"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Broniek,Mariusz Maciej"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2434"]
[BlackElo "2338"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.c5 Be5 17.Bxe5 dxe5 18.Nb3 Qe7 19.Rd6 Nf8 20.Qc3 f6 21.f4 exf4 22.gxf4 Be6 23.Rad1 Red8 24.a3 Bf7 25.Na5 Rxd6 26.cxd6 Qe8 27.b4 Be6 28.Nb3 Bxb3 29.Qxb3+ Qe6 30.Qg3 Rd8 31.e5 Nd7 32.Re1 Re8 33.Bf3 Qb3 34.Kg2 Qc2+ 35.Re2 Qc4 36.h4 Nf8 37.Re4 Qd3 38.Re3 Qd4 39.Bg4 Kf7 40.Rd3 Qe4+ 41.Kh2 h5 42.Bd1 fxe5 43.fxe5 Qxe5 44.Qxe5 Rxe5 45.d7 Nxd7 46.Rxd7+ Kf6 47.Rxb7 Re1 48.Rd7 Re4 49.Rd6+ Ke5 50.Rxg6 Rxh4+ 51.Kg2 Rc4 52.Rg5+ Kd4 53.Rxh5 Rc3 54.Ra5 c5 55.bxc5 Rxc5 56.Rxc5 Kxc5 57.Kf3 Kd4 58.Kf4 a5 59.a4 Kd5 60.Kf5 Kd6 61.Ke4 Kc5 62.Ke5 Kc4 63.Kd6 Kd4 64.Kc6 Kc4 65.Kb6 Kb4 66.Ka6 1-0

Game 91787     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000016"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2016.03.02"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Broniek,Mariusz Maciej"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2434"]
[BlackElo "2338"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.c5 Be5 17.Bxe5 dxe5 18.Nb3 Qe7 19.Rd6 Nf8 20.Qc3 f6 21.f4 exf4 22.gxf4 Be6 23.Rad1 Red8 24.Kh2 Rd7 25.Na5 Rxd6 26.cxd6 Qg7 27.Nb3 Nd7 28.a3 Qh6 29.Qg3 c5 30.Nd2 Kh8 31.e5 fxe5 32.fxe5 Rf8 33.Nf3 Qh5 34.Qg5 h6 35.Qxh5 gxh5 36.Re1 Kg7 37.Re3 b6 38.Kg3 Kf7 39.Nh4 Rg8+ 40.Kf4 Rg5 41.Bc6 a5 42.Bb5 Ke8 43.Rg3 Rxg3 44.Kxg3 Kf7 45.Nf3 Nf8 46.h4 Bd7 47.Bxd7 Nxd7 48.Kf4 Ke6 49.a4 Nb8 50.Nd2 Nc6 51.Nc4 Nb4 52.Ke4 Nc6 53.b3 b5 54.axb5 Nd4 55.b6 a4 56.Na5 a3 57.b7 Ne2 58.b8Q Nc3+ 59.Kf3 Kd5 60.d7 Kd4 61.d8Q+ Nd5 62.Qxd5+ Kc3 63.Qxc5+ Kb2 64.Qb8d6 a2 65.Qd2+ 1-0

Game 83259     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_2__000013"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2014.11.01"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Ohlin,Jan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2383"]
[BlackElo "2472"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nc7 Re5 16.Nf3 Qe7 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 18.c5 Qxc7 19.cxd6 Qa5 20.b4 Qb5 21.Rac1 Nfd7 22.Be3 Qxb4 23.f4 Qa3 24.Qb3 Qxb3 25.axb3 Nf8 26.fxe5 Be6 27.b4 Nd7 28.Bf4 h5 29.Bf1 Bxe5 30.Rd2 Kg7 31.Kf2 Rh8 32.h4 Bf6 33.Be2 Re8 34.Kg2 Kg8 35.Bf3 Bg7 36.Bg5 Ra8 37.Rb1 Kf8 38.Bd1 Ke8 39.Bb3 Bxb3 40.Rxb3 Be5 41.Bf4 f6 42.Kf3 Kf7 43.g4 hxg4+ 44.Kxg4 Ke6 45.Rd1 Rh8 46.Bxe5 Nxe5+ 47.Kg3 Nd7 48.Rb2 Rh5 49.Rf2 Rb5 50.Rg2 Kf7 51.Rdg1 Rh5 52.Kf2 Ne5 53.Rh2 Ke6 54.Rd1 Rh8 55.Kg3 Nd7 56.Rd4 Ne5 57.Rhd2 Nd7 58.Rh2 Rh5 1/2-1/2
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-01 06:17
What is the OTB rating of these opponents?

Of course I meant Kotronias + strong hardware + engine(s). If he isn't allowed to use engines, it isn't an even match.

Would be interesting to see a game between you and Master Om in this line :wink:. Kotronias won't be available.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-01 08:01 Edited 2017-10-01 08:29
Ohlin is a swedish GM, in ICCF i found IM Broniek, Mariusz Maciej (2439)
Domanov has 2141 ELO as i saw

i just finished ficgs championsship with Riccio 6:6, he is a GM too

i would play against any good opp the kid with white, just set it up
Parent - - By darmar (**) [rs] Date 2017-10-01 08:38 Edited 2017-10-01 08:52
Please link your games vs Eros

No need I have found it
http://www.ficgs.com/tournament_FICGS__CHESS__WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP__000014.html
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-01 11:23
yes, and we didnt play Kings Indian  :wink:
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-02 15:10
i would play against any good opp the kid with white, just set it up

I believe Master Om wants to accept such a challenge, would be nice to see you both in a KID Fianchetto discussion!
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-02 17:39
ok, i am ready
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-30 15:59
I 100% Agree.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [us] Date 2017-09-20 13:32
Actually black can draw. But engines still lack the understandiing of the position from black side. So Its a risk.
I have lost 4 games within few months and going to lose two more playing KID from black.
Still am playing it since i have won many games too. Playing black side is tough for black since engines are less help. U see sudden high or low.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 07:09
I agree. The King's Indian is a great weapon for black, especially when you are playing against someone who only plays computer moves in correspondence chess.

Engines are giving very high evals in many lines (f.e. in the Gligoric +0.7 through +1.0, which is completely wrong), and you can take advantage of these high evals and their lack of understanding how to play these positions.

IMO the King's Indian is also much more interesting compared to all those 'brave' Slavs, Queen's Gambits, Nimzo's and Queen's Indians :-).
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 13:51
The Bayonet Attack is an exception. Most engines understand the nuisances in that Game. But not in the other variations.
Bayonet Attack is favored by Kramnik for a reason.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [us] Date 2017-09-20 16:30
1r3rk1/1n1bqpb1/p2p1np1/1ppPp2p/2P1P3/1P1BBP1P/P2Q2P1/3NRRNK w - - 0 20


can u tell what white should play after black has played b5 ?
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 17:07
The engines love Nf2, the only game I found in the database continued f4.
Bet you analyzed it deeply, what is the story?
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-20 17:09
That is my game which i lost after playing b5 lol. :yell::yell::yell::yell::yell:

None of the engines found f4 even after running IA for long time. Give it a try. Komodo sucks big time in KID.
Parent - - By Hurnavich (Bronze) Date 2017-09-20 17:26 Edited 2017-09-20 17:34
1r3rk1/1n1bqpb1/p2p1np1/1ppPp2p/2P1P3/1P1BBP1P/P2Q2P1/3NRRNK w - - 0 1


Analysis by Houdini 6 x64:

20.f4 h4 21.f5 Nh5 22.Ne2 Qd8 23.Kh2 Qa5 24.Qc2 Qd8 25.Nf2 g5 26.Ng4 Nf4 27.Bd2 b4 28.Bc1 Nh5 29.Qd2 Nf4 30.Bb2 f6 31.Nxf4 exf4 32.Qf2 Be8 33.Be2
+/-  (1.21)    Depth: 27/55   00:05:39  3172MN, tb=39
(Hurnavich,  20.09.2017)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-20 17:27
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "1r3rk1/1n1bqpb1/p2p1np1/1ppPp2p/2P1P3/1P1BBP1P/P2Q2P1/3NRRNK w - - 0 20"]
[SetUp "1"]

{[IDeA: Correspondence book]} 20. f4 (20. Nf2 {(0:02:43) 1382853kN}
{+1.04|d27|TB:2}{(0:01:41) 901548kN}{+1.23|d25}{(0:00:45) 420457kN}{+1.21|d23}
{(0:00:30) 277686kN}{+1.06|d23} 20... Ra8 {(0:02:48) 1421141kN}{+0.92|d27|TB:3}
{(0:02:40) 1360531kN}{+0.96|d27|TB:2}{(0:02:38) 1341694kN}{+1.06|d27|TB:2}
{(0:02:33) 1310036kN}{+1.13|d27|TB:2} (20... Be8 21. f4 exf4 22. Bxf4 Nd7 23.
cxb5 axb5 24. Bxb5 Ne5 25. Be2 Ra8 26. Nd3 Nd7 27. Bd1 (27. Bf3 f6 28. Be3 Nd8
29. Nf4 Ne5 30. Be2 Nd7 31. Bf2 Ne5 32. Nf3 g5 {(0:01:10) 654381kN}{+1.23|d24}
{20.})27... Ne5 28. Nxe5 dxe5 29. Bg5 f6 30. Be3 f5 31. exf5 Rxf5 32. Rxf5
gxf5 33. Nf3 e4 34. Ng5 {(0:01:47) 953772kN}{+1.20|d25} 34... Be5 35. Ne6 Qh4
36. Rf1 {(0:01:54) 1004970kN}{+1.20|d26}{20.}) (20... Rbc8 {(0:01:42) 907751kN}
{+1.16|d25}{(0:01:31) 820560kN}{20.})(20... Nh7 {(0:00:51) 479127kN}{+1.09|d23}
{20.})21. f4 Ng4 22. Nxg4 exf4 23. Nf6+ Qxf6 24. Bxf4 Qc3 25. Qe2 Qb4 26. Nf3
Rae8 27. e5 dxe5 28. Nxe5 Qc3 29. Qc2 Qxc2 30. Bxc2 Bxe5 31. Bxe5 bxc4 32.
bxc4 Na5 33. Bd6 Nxc4 {(0:01:03) 594199kN}{+1.18|d24} 34. Bxf8 {(0:00:59)
558395kN}{+1.11|d23}{20.}) 20... h4 21. f5 Nh5 22. Ne2 b4 23. Nf2 f6 24. Ng4
g5 25. a3 a5 26. Ra1 Nf4 27. axb4 cxb4 28. Bb6 Nxd3 29. Qxd3 Ra8 30. Qd2 Rfc8
31. g3 hxg3 32. Nxg3 Qf7 33. Rfb1 {(0:05:24) 2771293kN}{+1.03|d28|TB:40}
{+1.03|d28|324s|TB:40}{20.} 33... Z0 {20.} (33... Ra6 {(0:04:58) 2542869kN}
{+1.14|d28|TB:39} 34. Be3 {(0:04:48) 2463874kN}{+1.21|d28|TB:38} 34... Nc5
{(0:04:28) 2303701kN}{+1.28|d27|TB:28}{20.}) *
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 17:32
You mean 20.f4 is the only winning move and therefore 20.Nf2 draws?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [us] Date 2017-09-20 17:35
f4 is the best move which wins instantly.
Parent - - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2017-09-23 12:10

> f4 is the best move which wins instantly.


Stockfish thinks 3...b4 (22...b4 in the game/pgn) is by score slightly inferior, although it might not matter (everything losing) and the scores are not stable. Qd8 from Hurnavich's H6 looks about equal to b4 at least now. Qd8 score also went up and down. Stockfish's best move at depth 36 only came up after an hour, before that invisible! Kh7 Kg1 looks a bit like a mutual Zugzwang. After that still b4 but the latest line
43  436:55   +1.47   22...Kh7 23. Rf3 Rh8 24. Ref1 Bf6 25. Nf2 g5 26. Ng4 Rbg8 27. a3 Nf4 28. Bc2 Kg7 29. R3f2 Rb8 30. Qc3 Qd8 31. Ng1 Rh7 32. Rb1 Rc8 33. Rd1 Qa5 34. Qb2 Qd8 35. Bd2 Rb8 (241.220.959.432) 9201

20. f4 h4 21. f5 Nh5 22. Ne2:

1r3rk1/1n1bqpb1/p2p2p1/1ppPpP1n/2P1P2p/1P1BB2P/P2QN1P1/3NRR1K b - -


Engine: Stockfish_20170922_009 HT (4+3 threads, i7 6700,512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

36     59:35  +1.34    3...Kh7 4.Kg1 Rh8 5.Rf3 Rhg8 6.Nf2 Bf6
                       7.Ng4 g5 8.Rb1 b4 9.a3 Nf4 10.Ra1 a5
                       11.Bc2 Ra8 12.a4 Rab8 13.Raf1 Qd8
                       14.Qe1 Re8 15.Kh1 Kg8 16.g3 hxg3 (32.203.105.408) 9007

36     59:35  +1.41    3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8
                       7.Bc2 b4 8.Qd3 Bg5 9.Ne3 Kg7 10.Rf3 Bf4
                       11.Kg1 Bg5 12.Ref1 Re8 13.Qd1 a5
                       14.Qd2 a4 15.bxa4 Na5 16.Qd3 Nf6 (32.203.105.408) 9007

36     59:35  +1.48    3...Rbc8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8
                       7.Bc2 b4 8.Qd3 Bg5 9.Ne3 Kg7 10.Rf3 Re8
                       11.Rg1 Nf4 12.Nxf4 Bxf4 13.Ng4 Qg5
                       14.Nf2 Qh6 15.Rf1 a5 16.Qe2 gxf5 (32.203.105.408) 9007

36     59:35  +1.55    3...Qd8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Bg5
                       7.Qc2 Qxf8 8.Rf3 Qg7 9.Ref1 f6
                       10.Rg1 Kh8 11.Ne3 Bxe3 12.Rxe3 g5
                       13.a3 b4 14.Qd2 a5 15.Ra1 Kg8 16.Qe1 Nf4 (32.203.105.408) 9007

36     59:35  +1.60    3...bxc4 4.bxc4 Nd8 5.Rg1 Kh7 6.Nf2 Rh8
                       7.Rb1 Rxb1 8.Rxb1 f6 9.fxg6+ Kxg6
                       10.Nd1 Bh6 11.Bxh6 Rxh6 12.Ne3 Rh8
                       13.Qe1 Nf4 14.Nxf4+ exf4 15.Nf5 Bxf5
                       16.exf5+ Kf7 (32.203.105.408) 9007
_____________________________________________________

37     97:21  +1.35    3...bxc4 4.Bxc4 Ra8 5.Bg5 Bf6 6.Bh6 Rfe8
                       7.Nf2 Kh8 8.Ng4 gxf5 9.exf5 Rg8
                       10.Be3 a5 11.a4 Rg7 12.Bh6 Rgg8
                       13.Qe3 Bg5 14.Qf2 Ng3+ 15.Nxg3 hxg3
                       16.Qe2 f6 (52.620.650.940) 9008

37     97:21  +1.40    3...Kh7 4.Kg1 b4 5.Rf3 Bf6 6.Nf2 Rg8
                       7.Ng4 g5 8.a3 a5 9.a4 Nf4 10.Bb1 Kh8
                       11.Ref1 Qd8 12.Bd3 Bg7 13.Kh1 Bf6
                       14.Bc2 Kh7 15.Qe1 Re8 16.Bc1 Bg7 (52.620.650.940) 9008

37     97:21  +1.40    3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8
                       7.Bc2 Kg7 8.Ne3 Bg5 9.Qd3 b4 10.Rf3 Re8
                       11.Ref1 Nd8 12.Kg1 Nb7 13.Qd1 a5
                       14.Qe1 Bxe3+ 15.Rxe3 Qg5 16.f6+ Kg8 (52.620.650.940) 9008

37     97:21  +1.50    3...Rbc8 4.Rf2 Rfe8 5.Ref1 Bf6
                       6.fxg6 fxg6 7.Bh6 Rf8 8.Bxf8 Rxf8
                       9.a3 Rb8 10.Rf3 Bg5 11.Qc3 Bf4
                       12.Nxf4 Nxf4 13.Rxf4 exf4 14.Rxf4 Rf8
                       15.Rxf8+ Qxf8 16.e5 dxe5 (52.620.650.940) 9008

37     97:21  +1.55    3...b4 4.Rf3 gxf5 5.exf5 e4 6.Bxe4 Qxe4
                       7.Nf2 Qe5 8.Nd3 Qe7 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bxh4 Qf7
                       11.g4 Rbe8 12.gxh5 Qxh5 13.Qf4 Bh6
                       14.Rg1+ Kh7 15.Ng3 Qf7 16.Qg4 Rg8 (52.620.650.940) 9008
.
.
.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
39  192:32   +1.30   3...Kh7 4.Kg1 Rh8 5.Rf3 Bf6 6.Nf2 g5 7.Ng4 Nf4 8.Bc2 Qd8 9.Qc3 Nh5 10.Rb1 Rg8 11.Qe1 Qf8 12.Rf1 Bd8 13.Nc1 f6 14.Ne2 Bb6 15.a3 Na5 16.Bd3 Bd8 (104.807.828.462) 9072
39  192:32   +1.35   3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Bc2 Bg5 8.Qd3 Kg7 9.Ne3 b4 10.Rf3 Bf4 11.Kg1 Bg5 12.Rb1 Re8 13.Rbf1 Kg8 14.Kh1 a5 15.a4 bxa3 16.Ra1 Ng7 (104.807.828.462) 9072
39  192:32   +1.47   3...bxc4 4.Bxc4 a5 5.Nf2 f6 6.Ng4 g5 7.a4 Nf4 8.Qc3 Ra8 9.Kg1 Rfc8 10.Bd2 Rf8 11.Qb2 Be8 12.Nc3 Bh5 13.Qc2 Nd8 14.Be3 Nf7 15.Nh2 Rab8 16.Nf3 Rb7 (104.807.828.462) 9072
39  192:32   +1.50   3...Rbc8 4.Rf2 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Ne3 Bg5 8.Ref1 Qf6 9.Ng4 Bxd2 10.Nxf6+ Nxf6 11.fxg6+ Kxg6 12.Rxf6+ Kg7 13.g4 b4 14.Kg2 a5 15.Bc2 Bg5 16.R6f2 f6 (104.807.828.462) 9072
39  192:32   +1.74   3...b4 4.Rf3 Kh7 5.Nf2 Rh8 6.Rf1 Rbg8 7.f6 Bxf6 8.Ng4 Bg7 9.Rxf7 Qe8 10.Bg5 Rf8 11.Rxg7+ Nxg7 12.Nf6+ Rxf6 13.Bxf6 Rf8 14.Qe1 Kg8 15.Bxh4 Nh5 16.Bg5 Rxf1+ (104.807.828.462) 9072
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
40  258:38   +1.48   3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Bc2 Bg5 8.Qd3 Rg8 9.Ne3 Na5 10.Rb1 Rb8 11.Ng4 Kg8 12.Qc3 Nb7 13.a3 Re8 14.Qf3 gxf5 15.Nxe5 Qxe5 16.Qxh5 Bf6 (141.534.672.390) 9120
40  258:38   +1.55   3...Kh7 4.Rf3 Rh8 5.Nf2 Rbg8 6.Kg1 Bf6 7.Ng4 g5 8.a3 Nf4 9.Rf2 Ra8 10.Bc2 Qd8 11.Qc3 Kg7 12.Kh1 Rc8 13.Rb1 Rh7 14.Ng1 Qa5 15.Qa1 Qd8 16.Rbf1 Nh5 (141.534.672.390) 9120
40  258:38   +1.61   3...bxc4 4.bxc4 Nd8 5.Rg1 gxf5 6.exf5 e4 7.g4 exd3 8.Nec3 Ng3+ 9.Rxg3 hxg3 10.Bg5 Qxe1+ 11.Qxe1 Be5 12.Qe3 f6 13.Bh4 Nf7 14.Qxd3 Bd4 15.Bxg3 Ne5 16.Bxe5 Bxe5 (141.534.672.390) 9120
40  258:38   +1.70   3...Rbc8 4.Rf2 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Ne3 Bg5 8.Ref1 gxf5 9.Nxf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 Qf6 11.Qc2 b4 12.Rf3 Qh6 13.g4 hxg3 14.Nxg3 Nxg3+ 15.Rxg3 Bf4 16.Rgf3 Rg8 (141.534.672.390) 9120
40  258:38   +1.84   3...Rbd8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh8 6.Bxf8 Qxf8 7.Nf2 Qg7 8.Qe3 Rf8 9.Rg1 Be7 10.Ref1 Na5 11.Ng4 Bd8 12.Kh2 Re8 13.Rf3 Rf8 14.fxg6 fxg6 15.Rxf8+ Qxf8 16.Rf1 Qg7 (141.534.672.390) 9120
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
41  330:28   +1.47   3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Bc2 Bg5 8.Qd3 Kg7 9.Ne3 b4 10.Rf3 Re8 11.Rg1 Qd8 12.Rgf1 Qe7 13.Qd2 a5 14.Qd3 Bc8 15.Kg1 Bd7 16.R3f2 Kg8 (181.602.981.710) 9158
41  330:28   +1.55   3...Kh7 4.Rf3 Rh8 5.Nf2 Rbg8 6.Kg1 Bf6 7.Ng4 g5 8.a3 Nf4 9.Rf2 Kg7 10.Bc2 Rc8 11.Qc3 Qd8 12.Qb2 Nh5 13.Bd2 Kg8 14.Qc1 Nf4 15.Bc3 Bg7 16.Nxf4 gxf4 (181.602.981.710) 9158
41  330:28   +1.55   3...Rbc8 4.Rf2 Kh7 5.Rf3 Rh8 6.Nf2 Rcg8 7.a3 g5 8.Bxg5 Bf6 9.Be3 Bg5 10.Ng4 Bxe3 11.Rxe3 Nf6 12.Nh2 Rg7 13.Rf3 Qd8 14.Rb1 Nh5 15.Kg1 Rhg8 16.Ng4 Rxg4 (181.602.981.710) 9158
41  330:28   +1.64   3...bxc4 4.bxc4 Nd8 5.Rf3 gxf5 6.exf5 e4 7.Nf4 Ng3+ 8.Rxg3 hxg3 9.Nh5 Qh4 10.Nxg7 f6 11.Bxc5 exd3 12.Bxd6 Kxg7 13.Bxb8 Nf7 14.Qf4 d2 15.Re2 Qxf4 16.Bxf4 Rc8 (181.602.981.710) 9158
41  330:28   +1.66   3...f6 4.fxg6 Qe8 5.Rf3 Qxg6 6.Ref1 Kf7 7.Bg5 Rh8 8.Bxh4 Rbg8 9.Qe1 Ke8 10.cxb5 axb5 11.Qf2 Bh6 12.Bxf6 Nxf6 13.Rxf6 Qh5 14.Rf3 Rf8 15.Qe1 Rxf3 16.Rxf3 Rf8 (181.602.981.710) 9158
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
42  388:31   +1.48   3...Ra8 4.Bg5 Bf6 5.Bh6 Kh7 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.Bc2 Bg5 8.Qd3 Kg7 9.Ne3 b4 10.Rf3 Nd8 11.Rd1 Rh8 12.Rdf1 Re8 13.Qd1 Bxe3 14.Rxe3 Qg5 15.Qc1 f6 16.fxg6 Qxg6 (214.053.555.484) 9182
42  388:31   +1.51   3...Kh7 4.Rf3 Rh8 5.Ref1 Bf6 6.Nf2 g5 7.Ng4 Rbg8 8.a3 Nf4 9.Kh2 Kg7 10.Qc2 Rb8 11.Bd2 Kh7 12.Qc3 Nh5 13.R3f2 Rhg8 14.Bc2 Qd8 15.Kg1 Rh8 16.Qf3 Nf4 (214.053.555.484) 9182
42  388:31   +1.53   3...Rbc8 4.Rf2 Kh7 5.Rf3 Rh8 6.Ref1 Bf6 7.Nf2 g5 8.Ng4 Rcg8 9.a3 Nf4 10.Kh2 Kg7 11.Qc2 Rb8 12.Bd2 Kh7 13.Qc3 Nh5 14.R3f2 Qd8 15.Rb1 Rg8 16.Bc2 Be7 (214.053.555.484) 9182
42  388:31   +1.64   3...f6 4.fxg6 Qe8 5.Rf3 Qxg6 6.Ref1 Kf7 7.Bg5 Rh8 8.Bxh4 Rbg8 9.Qe1 Ke8 10.cxb5 axb5 11.Qf2 Qh7 12.Ndc3 Nf4 13.Nxf4 Qxh4 14.Ne6 Qxf2 15.R1xf2 b4 16.Na4 Nd8 (214.053.555.484) 9182
42  388:31   +1.84   3...b4 4.Rf3 a5 5.Nf2 a4 6.Rf1 Ra8 7.Ng4 f6 8.fxg6 Qe8 9.Nh6+ Bxh6 10.Bxh6 Qxg6 11.Rg1 Rf7 12.g4 hxg3 13.Rgxg3 Nxg3+ 14.Rxg3 Kh7 15.Rxg6 Kxg6 16.Kg2 Rh7 (214.053.555.484) 9182

Both 22...b4 and 22...Qd8 have dropped out of the top five
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-23 16:38 Upvotes 1
See my analysis window
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / What happened to the King's Indian (in CC)?
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