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- - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 08:10
Until maybe two or three years ago the KID was one of the main weapons for correspodence players against 1.d4 as the engines were underestimating black's attack. Stockfish was especially suited for carrying out the black attack due it its strong selectivity. Nowadays the top cc players seem to prefer the closed Slav as it likely gives them a little more chances to win, at least if white tries to win.

How did the King's Indian get neutralized by white?
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-20 09:54
g3 variation is pretty ugly for black
he will have a hard fight to hold the draw
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [us] Date 2017-09-20 13:27
I dont agree. I have easily drawn in that line.
Rather the makogonov is a tricky one.
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 17:31
You mean as in this game?


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Be7 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Bg2
c6 9. e4 d5 10. exd5 exd5 11. O-O Re8 12. Re1 dxc4 13. bxc4 Bxc4 14. Ne5 Qxd4
15. Bg5 Qxc3 16. Rc1 Qa5 17. Rxc4 h6 18. Bd2 Qxa2 19. Rc2 Qa3 20. Nxc6 Nxc6 etc
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-21 00:20 Edited 2017-09-21 00:24
thats queens indian, and my opp made the mistake 10. - exd5?

cxd5 is equal
Parent - - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-20 19:46
... or this variation with g3?

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. h3 e5 7. d5 Nh5 8. g3 *
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-21 02:40
This is makogonov. This is tricky. This is least explored. Karpov used to play that line. Black has to play precisely.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-23 17:04
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Event "Interzonal TT/9"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.03.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Santos, Marcos Antonio dos"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[BlackTeam "Africa Asia A"]
[Board "2"]
[ECO "E62"]
[WhiteElo "2433"]
[WhiteTeam "Latin America C"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.g3 O-O 6.Bg2 c6 7.O-O Qa5 8.e4 Nbd7 9.h3 e5 10.Re1 exd4 11.Nxd4 Ne5 12.Bf1 Qb6 13.Be3 c5 14.Nc2 Qxb2 15.Na4 Nf3+ 16.Kh1 Qe5 17.Qxf3 Qxe4 18.Qxe4 Nxe4 19.Rad1 Bd7 20.Nxc5 Nxc5 21.Rxd6 Rfc8 22.Bxc5 Ba4 23.Be3 Bxc2 24.Bg2 Rxc4 25.Rd7 Bc3 26.Re2 Bf5 27.Rxb7 Be6 28.Rxf7 Kxf7 29.Bxa8 a5 30.Kg2 1/2-1/2

Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 07:05
Engines do not understand the Fianchetto lines very well. IMO they are quite useless in these g3 lines.

Nevertheless, I think black has no problems, if he understands what he is doing.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 13:49
Exactly Sir, Play c6 and block all the battery :twisted:
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 15:14 Upvotes 1
I just released my six King's Indian testsets over here, maybe they are of interest to you:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=32292
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 15:57
Jeroen Sir, I did ask u about that and downloaded that.
Thanks for this effort sir.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-24 16:10
You're welcome! And please keep on playing the King's Indian :-).
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 17:22
Sir, Keep Playing and Keep losing :yell::yell::yell::yell::yell:
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-24 17:35
Sir, My First game in ICCF was kings indian and thats how I fell in love with opening.
[Event "S-Open/5-pr39"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2012.06.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Zielasko, Andreas"]
[Black "Prakash, Om"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E97"]
[WhiteElo "2135"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Nd2 Ne8 10.b4 f5 11.c5 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Nc4 g5 14.a4 Ng6 15.Nb5 a6 16.Nc3 h5 17.Ba3 g4 18.cxd6 cxd6 19.b5 Ne8 20.Qd2 Nh4 21.a5 gxf3 22.Bxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bg4 24.Rf2 h4 25.h3 Bh5 26.bxa6 Rxa6 27.Rc1 Bh6 28.Nb1 Rf6 29.Rc3 Qd7 30.Qe1 Rg6 31.Nbd2 Rg3 32.Nf1 Rxc3 33.Qxc3 Bg6 34.Nfd2 Bf8 35.Rf1 Qg7 36.Nb6 Nf6 37.Re1 Bh7 38.Qc8 Rxa5 39.Nbc4 f3 40.Nxf3 Rxa3 41.Nxa3 Bxe4 42.Rf1 Bxd5 43.Nc2 Nh5 44.Ne3 Nf4 45.Nxh4 Be6 46.Qe8 Bxh3 47.Kh2 Bd7 48.Qa8 Qh6 49.g3 Qe6 50.Nhf5 Qb3 51.Nh6+ Kg7 52.Nhg4 Bxg4 53.Nxg4 Qc2+ 54.Nf2 Qh7+ 55.Kg1 Qg6 56.Qxb7+ Kh8 57.Qf3 d5 58.Qg4 Bc5 59.Qxg6 Nxg6 60.Kg2 1/2-1/2

Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2017-09-29 16:30

> Exactly Sir, Play c6 and block all the battery <img title="twisted" class="fsm fsm_twisted" alt=":twisted:" src="/mwf/v12/epx.png" />


https://www.iccf.com/game?id=786390
Parent - By Hamster (**) [ch] Date 2017-09-29 18:04 Edited 2017-09-29 18:07
Veeeery nice win!

Guess he should have played 4..d5... but with hindsight it is always easy.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-09-30 15:50
The Problem is U were not playing me na.. :yell:

Black play is below par in this game. I see lots of loop holes starting with 9...Qb6. Better is Qa5
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-01 06:15
What is the OTB rating of this opponent?

I'd like to see a game between you and Master OM in this line :wink:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-10-02 13:06
Am ready. My analysis is Already ready in this line.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-02 18:02
Kreuzfahrtschiff is ready to play you!
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-02 20:27 Edited 2017-10-02 20:29
we can play in this forum
correspondence chess
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=32307
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2017-10-02 21:06
No problem. U set the position.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2017-09-26 22:10

> g3 variation is pretty ugly for black


IMHO as long as black sets up c6 and d5 pawns, he's ok.
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-27 09:02
thats true, but i meant d6 variations
grünfeld is draw
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-28 17:26
Nothing wrong with d6 setups either, as long as you don't believe too much what engines tell you :wink:

Nevertheless, c6 & d5 is of course easier. Also chosen by Kasparov in his matches with Karpov.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-28 19:25
i believe them and i win long corr games as well :)
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-29 04:07 Upvotes 1
That is because your opponents also believe them and play suboptimal :-).
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-29 09:39
everybody plays suboptimal, but its harder with a disadvantage to hold  :)
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-09-29 14:46 Upvotes 1
In the King's Indian the top engines 'believe' white is better by +0.50 or more in many lines. They are wrong :-).

I have done a few weeks of testing with Stockfish & Kotronias on the King's Indian volume 1 (Fianchetto lines). Kotronias warns 'don't believe the engines' in many places and I found out he is correct.

In the g3 King's Indian it is crucial what to do with the knight on d7. In some lines it is best placed on c5, in others on e5. But there are also lines in which it is best to keep it on d7 and go for a setup with a6, Rb8 and b5. Stockfish has no clue about this and puts the Nd7 on the wrong square on many occasions.

Hence I firmly believe that Kotronias (or another strong King's Indian expert) will have no trouble in drawing this line as black in a correspondence game.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-09-29 16:26
i would bet on me if he wants to try, he is only human

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000018"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2017.07.01"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Domanov,Dmitry"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "2435"]
[BlackElo "2307"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 c6 9.Qc2 Qe7 10.b3 Re8 11.d5 cxd5 12.cxd5 b6 13.Bg5 a5 14.Rfc1 h6 15.Be3 Ng4 16.Bd2 Nc5 17.h3 Nf6 18.Be3 Ba6 19.Ne1 Rec8 20.Qd1 Qe8 21.a3 b5 22.b4 axb4 23.axb4 Na4 24.Nxa4 Rxc1 25.Bxc1 Bc8 26.Nc2 bxa4 27.Na3 Bd7 28.Be3 Rb8 29.Rb1 h5 30.Qd2 *

Game 91791     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000016"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2016.03.02"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Broniek,Mariusz Maciej"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2434"]
[BlackElo "2338"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.c5 Be5 17.Bxe5 dxe5 18.Nb3 Qe7 19.Rd6 Nf8 20.Qc3 f6 21.f4 exf4 22.gxf4 Be6 23.Rad1 Red8 24.a3 Bf7 25.Na5 Rxd6 26.cxd6 Qe8 27.b4 Be6 28.Nb3 Bxb3 29.Qxb3+ Qe6 30.Qg3 Rd8 31.e5 Nd7 32.Re1 Re8 33.Bf3 Qb3 34.Kg2 Qc2+ 35.Re2 Qc4 36.h4 Nf8 37.Re4 Qd3 38.Re3 Qd4 39.Bg4 Kf7 40.Rd3 Qe4+ 41.Kh2 h5 42.Bd1 fxe5 43.fxe5 Qxe5 44.Qxe5 Rxe5 45.d7 Nxd7 46.Rxd7+ Kf6 47.Rxb7 Re1 48.Rd7 Re4 49.Rd6+ Ke5 50.Rxg6 Rxh4+ 51.Kg2 Rc4 52.Rg5+ Kd4 53.Rxh5 Rc3 54.Ra5 c5 55.bxc5 Rxc5 56.Rxc5 Kxc5 57.Kf3 Kd4 58.Kf4 a5 59.a4 Kd5 60.Kf5 Kd6 61.Ke4 Kc5 62.Ke5 Kc4 63.Kd6 Kd4 64.Kc6 Kc4 65.Kb6 Kb4 66.Ka6 1-0

Game 91787     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000016"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2016.03.02"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Broniek,Mariusz Maciej"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2434"]
[BlackElo "2338"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.c5 Be5 17.Bxe5 dxe5 18.Nb3 Qe7 19.Rd6 Nf8 20.Qc3 f6 21.f4 exf4 22.gxf4 Be6 23.Rad1 Red8 24.Kh2 Rd7 25.Na5 Rxd6 26.cxd6 Qg7 27.Nb3 Nd7 28.a3 Qh6 29.Qg3 c5 30.Nd2 Kh8 31.e5 fxe5 32.fxe5 Rf8 33.Nf3 Qh5 34.Qg5 h6 35.Qxh5 gxh5 36.Re1 Kg7 37.Re3 b6 38.Kg3 Kf7 39.Nh4 Rg8+ 40.Kf4 Rg5 41.Bc6 a5 42.Bb5 Ke8 43.Rg3 Rxg3 44.Kxg3 Kf7 45.Nf3 Nf8 46.h4 Bd7 47.Bxd7 Nxd7 48.Kf4 Ke6 49.a4 Nb8 50.Nd2 Nc6 51.Nc4 Nb4 52.Ke4 Nc6 53.b3 b5 54.axb5 Nd4 55.b6 a4 56.Na5 a3 57.b7 Ne2 58.b8Q Nc3+ 59.Kf3 Kd5 60.d7 Kd4 61.d8Q+ Nd5 62.Qxd5+ Kc3 63.Qxc5+ Kb2 64.Qb8d6 a2 65.Qd2+ 1-0

Game 83259     Previous movePrevious move  move  End of gameEnd of game    Javascript viewer     (chess)      Vote for the best game !

[Event "FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_2__000013"]
[Site "FICGS"]
[Date "2014.11.01"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kruse,Herbert"]
[Black "Ohlin,Jan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2383"]
[BlackElo "2472"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d6 6.c4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.Qc2 a6 11.Rd1 Rb8 12.h3 Qe7 13.Bf4 Qf8 14.Nd5 c6 15.Nc7 Re5 16.Nf3 Qe7 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 18.c5 Qxc7 19.cxd6 Qa5 20.b4 Qb5 21.Rac1 Nfd7 22.Be3 Qxb4 23.f4 Qa3 24.Qb3 Qxb3 25.axb3 Nf8 26.fxe5 Be6 27.b4 Nd7 28.Bf4 h5 29.Bf1 Bxe5 30.Rd2 Kg7 31.Kf2 Rh8 32.h4 Bf6 33.Be2 Re8 34.Kg2 Kg8 35.Bf3 Bg7 36.Bg5 Ra8 37.Rb1 Kf8 38.Bd1 Ke8 39.Bb3 Bxb3 40.Rxb3 Be5 41.Bf4 f6 42.Kf3 Kf7 43.g4 hxg4+ 44.Kxg4 Ke6 45.Rd1 Rh8 46.Bxe5 Nxe5+ 47.Kg3 Nd7 48.Rb2 Rh5 49.Rf2 Rb5 50.Rg2 Kf7 51.Rdg1 Rh5 52.Kf2 Ne5 53.Rh2 Ke6 54.Rd1 Rh8 55.Kg3 Nd7 56.Rd4 Ne5 57.Rhd2 Nd7 58.Rh2 Rh5 1/2-1/2
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-01 06:17
What is the OTB rating of these opponents?

Of course I meant Kotronias + strong hardware + engine(s). If he isn't allowed to use engines, it isn't an even match.

Would be interesting to see a game between you and Master Om in this line :wink:. Kotronias won't be available.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-01 08:01 Edited 2017-10-01 08:29
Ohlin is a swedish GM, in ICCF i found IM Broniek, Mariusz Maciej (2439)
Domanov has 2141 ELO as i saw

i just finished ficgs championsship with Riccio 6:6, he is a GM too

i would play against any good opp the kid with white, just set it up
Parent - - By darmar (**) [rs] Date 2017-10-01 08:38 Edited 2017-10-01 08:52
Please link your games vs Eros

No need I have found it
http://www.ficgs.com/tournament_FICGS__CHESS__WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP__000014.html
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-01 11:23
yes, and we didnt play Kings Indian  :wink:
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2017-10-02 15:10
i would play against any good opp the kid with white, just set it up

I believe Master Om wants to accept such a challenge, would be nice to see you both in a KID Fianchetto discussion!
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-10-02 17:39
ok, i am ready
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-11-25 23:59
yes, and his position is totally lost at move 20 already  :)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-11-27 16:50
Not at all. The game is on. IN KID showing inflated evals is common.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-11-27 16:53
this position is easy, not like KID common positions, so 95% won at least
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-11-27 16:56
I don't know your observations. But I dont think so its won 95% of the time. May the proper line of equality is yet to be found.
I have found one promising line. Trying to elongate it.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-12-05 15:36
98% win now  :)

KID is lost
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-12-08 16:34
98% win now  :)

Statistical Noise

KID is lost

No. Only a player loses. KID is formidable opening to play.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-12-08 16:58
so who can stop me winning all KID games now, u tried but lost

maybe Alpha Zero can hold a draw, but i doubt it
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-12-08 17:02
so who can stop me winning all KID games now, u tried but lost

Losing is part of game. And U have not won yet. And One game doesnot decide anything. I dont have a big hardware like u have. So takes time to see. Already bus in 20+ game in ICCF and 10+ game at AICCF. Hence all short of delays.
let the game finish whats going on. Then I may show u that U cant win in KID if properly played. I will definitely play this again if u dont mind.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-12-08 17:04
i have the same amount of games running now, and i needed only short time of 5 hours maybe 2 or 3 times, the rest of the moves was quickly found

if u want another chance, i am open to it
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-12-08 17:25
But I don't have a big hardware to analyse it. I do most my analysis on AMD 1090T hexa core that too not over clocked with mere 8 GB ram.

So it takes more time for me to play. Also analysis matters much. I barely have more than 2 hours to sit continuously in working days. Only sunday is what i have.
Would like to get from tips about analysis from you since I well know u r a better player than me and am in learning phase now.
Would be happy if u give some tips about your methodology.

Definitely need more than one chances to prove my gut feeling. LEt me finish this game first.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-12-08 17:35 Edited 2017-12-08 17:40
ok, my tips:

1. run only one thread and let it make at least deep 50 halfmoves
2. the game will be decided between move 8 and 15, after that its clear, so use all your time there
3. dont let books help u, they are mostly wrong
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2017-12-08 17:58
1. run only one thread and let it make at least deep 50 halfmoves

Infinite analysis ? If i let run the position in SPV and i get 50 half moves suppose what next to do ? Play forward ?

2. the games will decide between move 8 and 15, after that its clear, so use all your time there

Ok Sir. Will always remember that.

3. dont let books help u, they are mostly wrong

I have lost most games by using books only. Most games i lose the advantage if i follow a human GM advised book. KID is bit different. Human patzer moves sometimes becomes relevant there.
therefore i use it .
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2017-12-08 18:05
"Infinite analysis ? If i let run the position in SPV and i get 50 half moves suppose what next to do ? Play forward ?"

always infinite, and then look if the main variation changes a lot and if so, let it run longer (i go to deep 62 at most, then its totally clear)
if its a 0.00 score u can forget it, there must be 0.30 at least to have a winning chance

u NEVER stop the thread and move urself, because that ruins the true outcome
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / What happened to the King's Indian (in CC)?
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