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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Romi chess might have something to teach rybka
- - By ozziejoe (**) Date 2008-02-01 21:46
I have been extremely impressed with romi chess' learning ability. I have inserted michael sherwin's explanation of it below.  If you focus your games on a single position, it leads to considerable improvement in playing strength (With learning on, and lots of training sessions, romi is beating engines over 200 points stronger than itself).

It would be great if rybka could implement something like this. It would find the absolute best lines eventually. And it would be even better if you could see the conclusions of the learning in tree form. (e.g., this line gets a -.2 penality, this line gets +.3)

I have inserted a description of the learning at the very bottom

Here is a tournement i've been running from the position 1 e4, c6; 2; d4, d5; 3; c4!? You can see romi improving against these better engines.  It is often getting 40 moves deep before it has to think. I will keep adding stronger and stronger engines, to make sure romi finds solutions that apply across the board. It has just started beating list, so next up is ruffian. I wonder how strong an engine i can put against it before it stops improving.

1: Romichess      67.5/114 ······································
2: List512        24.0/38  1=1011111111=01110====101110=1=0101000
3: Aristarch 4.50 16.5/38  11=1=1010011111=00==0=0=00000=1=000=0=
4: Yace Paderborn 6.0/38   0=01010=0=0100000=00000=0=000000000000

quote from michael sherwin, describing romi's learning,

"here were lots of dicussions about how Romi's learning works. Maybe someone will provide the links. I only have time for a short explaination, right now. I will write something up to include with my next release.

The 'skinny' is, Romi combines two ideas in her learn file, 1)Pavlov's dog experiment and 2)monkey see monkey do.

First, Romi remembers every move of every game for 160 ply (IIRC) and

1) gives a small bonus to every move of the winning side and a small penalty to every move of the loosing side (Pavlov)

2) Romi plays back winning lines played by herself as well as those played by her opponents (Monkey see)

so, Romi will without 'thinking' play back your own lines against you if you are good enough to beat her or her lines untill you beat her at wich time the bonus/penalty will kick in to make Romi change her play untill she finds a way to win."
_________
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-02-01 22:28
This sounds a lot like the ProDeo approach. Anyway, it will be interesting to know if this could be somehow combined with persistent hash (As I think they are mutually exclusive; while one remembers the scores from possible future positions based on past analysis, the other changes these scores based on game results - Rybka 3 will have the first learning approach.)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2008-02-02 08:37 Edited 2008-02-02 08:46

> This sounds a lot like the ProDeo approach.


Romi's learning precedes Pro Deo's.
Parent - By ozziejoe (**) Date 2008-02-02 13:11
Here is some discussion of the learning alogrithims in prodeo

http://www.top-5000.nl/authors/rebel/hints.htm
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-02-02 22:24

> Romi's learning precedes Pro Deo's.


Then I should have said "ProDeo's approach sounds a lot like this" ;)
Parent - By ozziejoe (**) Date 2008-02-02 21:24
Well, I'm not completly sure the prodeo learning is working right. The way it is described, you should get instant moving like you do with romi (when it is on a line that has won before).  It doesn't do that.  The position.lrn file is updated after each game, but after 63 games it has only been updated 2 kb. . It is suppose to be saving the moves from ever game and changing weights etc, but i don't think it is.

In contrast, romi's learnign file gets larger faster

the parameter.txt document shows that i have turned extended learning on (read&write).

So i have my doubts.
Parent - - By bballplayer (**) Date 2008-02-02 22:00
I was trying to download this Romichess but see its not a uci engine. How can I use it in chessbase gui?
Parent - By noctiferus (***) Date 2008-02-02 22:16
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-02-03 01:05
In theory, opening play (and learning) should be handled by the GUI. This allows the data to be shown to the user (and edited by the user).

Vas
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Romi chess might have something to teach rybka

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