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Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 00:17 Edited 2015-04-27 00:21
Let's take this a step further -

If the mistrial results from judicial or prosecutorial misconduct, a retrial will be barred. In other word the previous verdict is dismissed.
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2015-04-27 00:46
The chance for a mistrial ended after the verdict, though.  Next step would be an appeal. I'd think that offering substantial new evidence, such as the source code of the Rybka version in question, would be good grounds for an appeal!
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 01:13 Edited 2015-04-27 01:16
Not really. That's the wonder of this whole thing. There was not even a relatively close resemblance to a legitimate hearing set up. Even Judge Roy Bean had more legal precedence to judge than David Levy-  It was a sham a mockery. The enter episode needs to be disregarded.

No appeal - there was no court of law to appeal to.:grin:

Bean was known for his unusual rulings. In one case, an Irishman named Paddy O'Rourke shot a Chinese laborer. A mob of 200 angry Irishmen surrounded the courtroom and saloon and threatened to lynch Bean if O'Rourke was not freed. After looking through his law book, Bean ruled that "homicide was the killing of a human being; however, he could find no law against killing a Chinaman".[9]
Bean dismissed the case.[9]

Actually, that sounds more like levy! :twisted:
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2015-04-27 12:10
It was certainly not a real trial. Levy didn't have the power of subpoena!
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 01:45 Edited 2015-04-27 01:48
Mark, seriously, source code for which version-surely not Rybka 4.1. - and Vas, already stated he didn't have the source code for Rybka 3. 

I don't think giving up any source code after 7 years is necessary. Time to move on from that demand.

Had Fabien Letouzey continued to develop Fruit and not stopped  after 2006 and  made it  freeware As of July 23, 2007- that was his  decision and he  move on - he could have stayed in the game,  or just before he bowed out, would have been a perfect time to  start a " you are using my code "-flame war.

But to wait 4 years and  at the   behest of those who very probably had an ax to grind against Vas- is a bit much!  Especially considering it was a time when Rybka was on top of her game for the  past few years. 

I'm sure not just a few programmers were dying to get rid of  Vas and make Rybka disappear from the number one spot,  even if it meant doing it in the most loathsome way possible.

[edit]

I would conclude this whole episode to be the most deranged in the history of computer chess.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2015-04-27 12:00 Edited 2015-04-27 13:47

> Mark, seriously, source code for which version-surely not Rybka 4.1. -
> and Vas, already stated he didn't have the source code for Rybka 3.


He surely must have the source for a version close to 3, though, don't you agree?

> I don't think giving up any source code after 7 years is necessary. Time to move on from that demand.


The lifetime ban is obviously still an issue, so why not clear it up in the easiest way possible?  If there are still some secrets left in the old code, they could just be redacted.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 01:57
Mark - do you see how deranged this entire affair was- If Vas lived in the same neighborhood as Levy -Levy would be putting up pictures of Vas in the local bagel shop warning them not to serve Vas! 
Or, if Levy happened across a poster asking if anyone found their cat- he'd probably call the concerned party and tell them that Rajlich probably stole the cat.
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2015-04-27 12:06
Just curious, would you feel the same if the penalty was relatively minor, say only a disqualification from a tournament or two, instead of a lifetime ban (which I think was way out of line)?
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 14:53
I feel I've posted way, way- too much on this already.  I apology for doing so.

What is so apparent to me is the negligent  way the entire affair was conducted.

To say NOW it is okay to justify the way Levy rushed the process - and then  having no  control over that process- or willingness to take control over that process. I suppose  we would have to grant him some cognizance of having  the perceptive ability to begin with,  to be aware of the process he he set in motion, but I don't think so!  Either way he's screwed, isn't he?  Levy  kind of disappeared! Left Hyatt to run amok - to rant and rave during that process- one of the Secretariat. 

I've posted example after example of how Levy exhibited a lack of control over the process and made erroneous , if not megalomaniacal determination of his influence exceeding  beyond the ICGA  in penalizing Vas.  Levy- if he isn't  deranged- had no business forming an inquisition- let alone running one. 

If that is all you have left in your hand, is to cut a deal with a nutter, like the Chamberlain  Munich Agreement, then you do it and hope for the best. Tournament or two???

At this point it isn't about  the ICGA - it is about FIDE's credibility to allow themselves to be represented by an organization that is contemptuous of following ethical standards.

If Vas wants to cut a deal that is totally up him.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 15:19
Okay!

My solution- restate all Rybka wins. No questions asked, with a written agreement that should  Vas ever enters any future ICGA competition he must submit his source code as penalty for the Crafty incident.

Beyond that, I don't think Vas has intentions upon entering any future ICGA organized competition.

Vas,  would be vindicated - leaving  the ICGA to go their own way- and FIDE can breathe a sigh of relief.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2015-04-27 15:29

> and FIDE can breathe a sigh of relief.


I really don't think FIDE could care less whatever happens. As far as the ICGA goes the only thing they should review is the life sentence.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-27 16:14
I would think that would depend on how this issue is published.
Parent - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-27 16:16
As far as the ICGA goes actually means "as far as Levy goes". Best option is sack Levy and elect someone sensible to review and cancel the entire foul, stinking, biased and corrupt process that wrecked computer chess for the last several years. Does this organisation, claiming to represent computer chess, actually have a process to get rid of its hierarchy, or is it all wrapped up so they're in power forever?
Parent - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-27 20:04
Do you swear to be honest from now on til the end of your life?
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2015-04-27 19:15

> After the verdict, the burden of proof falls on the accused.


In this case, the verdict came first (though whether or not the verdict came before the sentence is an interesting question), and the accusations and "evidence" came later.  That's not justice, either.
Parent - - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-27 19:46
the poll in the panel was "breach rule 2, yes or no"
the panel summary was breached rule 2, derivative, plagiarism (I think). Note that plagiarism is an undefined legal concept, it seems desigend to mean whatever you want it to mean.
the ICGA summary was breached tournament rules, plagiarism but added "plagiarism was most serious possible against peers and ICGA" or something along those lines.

the sanctions/punishment part of the ICGA process (which was the part that earnt the ICGA the bringing FIDE into disrepute sanction, for ignoring the law) used the "most serious possible etc" to justify the extra-legal punishments including the life ban.

so, it is arguable that the sexing up of the verdict with the "most serious possible" (actually objectively a false statement, think about it) was PART OF the extra-legal disreputable process. Which would make the verdict as untenable, legally, as is the life ban, and for the same reason.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2015-04-28 08:01 Upvotes 1
I found the plagiarism charge rather humorous. Vas said he went through Fruit forwards and backwards and took many things. That's what you do with open source code you want to learn from. That's what all the smart developers did (along with some who were not so smart and not so honest).

Is there any doubt in your mind that Mark Lefler (or Mark Uniake) are going through Stockfish forwards and backwards and taking many things? And would you respect them more or less if the answer was no?

This was all a rather silly exercise that could only be embraced by academics and people trying to win tournaments in the past that they couldn't win over the board...
Parent - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-30 20:37
every starting programmer goes through something or other, you can't start a computer chess program from nothing, no base information, no model. I think the budding programmer says to himself "I can do that better". At some level of abstraction, you will find therefore, a parallel to the starting mode, with additions changes. They all did it, obviously, and then when they needed something to get Vas on, used what they and everybody does, quite legitimately imo, to screw Vas. And called it "plagiarism" at N degrees of abstraction. Which is apparently then the worst thing you can do to your peers and the icga. Pass the sickbag.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2015-04-26 13:34

> I very much doubt Vas will take further actions, but if he does, the effort expended on the FIDE EC action will have been worthwhile.


Seems like the path of least effort, if Vas wanted to clear his name, would be releasing the source code of the Rybka version in question (or if that isn't available, a version close to the version in question).  At this point, I doubt there are any secrets left in the old source code.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 18:07 Edited 2015-04-25 18:10

> Consequently, EC has no competence about the merit of ICGA’s decision concerning Mr Rajlich’s behaviour and alleged violations of ICGA internal rules, nor about ICGA’s reconstruction of some alleged facts of “plagiarism” or “cheating” during the World Computer Chess Championships.
>


But the EC  does have competence  over the consequences of  HOW  the ICGA conducts "its" behavior with regard to these alleged violations of "plagiarism " or "cheating".  during the World Computer Chess Championships.

FIDE cannot have it both ways!

Clearly! FIDE is protecting the ICGA!
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 18:22
That behavior sets a precedents for further consideration! Can you dig it! It does't take rocket science!
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-25 19:10
You are missing (from the beginning) the complaint is not about the technical evidence but about the procedures and the ethics that belong to that.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 20:51 Edited 2015-04-25 20:53
And you are missing the point that the complaint is about ethical conduct! A lack of ethical conduct that the ICGA failed to adhere to right from the beginning of it inquiry! Savvy! 2011! At the point of the EC 's rule change.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 21:01 Edited 2015-04-25 21:31
You got snookered!

They were smart in giving you to believe they were on your side by stating  that Vas was dealt with unfairly - that was their piece of candy that they paid for before they took the store.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 21:00 Edited 2015-04-25 21:27
There is a very fine line between the ethics involved in the way you acquire your evidence and apply that evidence. The fallacy is in separating the two to begin with - that is when you get snookered.

Addendum:

Was it Ethical the way the evidence was presented or the way Hyatt acquired 1.6.1? It sounds like to me that the EC was freaked over the depth of those questions. The whole issue spelled trouble- presenting that data as evidence- using it in verdict. They almost have to rule on as questionable at best. They looked at the quickest way out- "Oh! rule change -2011! Sorry! Cannot help you there! "
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 21:03
Especially when the evidence isn't even ethically sound.

Once they were able to put a wedge between the two issues it was over.

There intention was to minimize as much of the impact of the complaint as was possible against the ICGA.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-25 20:55
Clearly! FIDE is protecting the ICGA!

There is something else to mention. It's mentioned in the full verdict. We (Vas, Chris, Soren and me) filed a second complaint as a supplement and asked for an appeal. See - [ http://www.top-5000.nl/Zach/FIDE-Supplement.pdf ]

As you can see the document is signed by Vas and co-signed by Chris, Soren and me.

The appeal was dismissed because (we assume) it was mailed from my account instead of Vas or Chris. It's what the text implies.

Lucky David.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 22:20
The supplement requests the ICGA repeal  Vas' verdict.   I can see why the FIDE EC didn't like this addendum. The ICGA's penchant for making gross misjudgments - specific to the case of   Fritz Reul is an eye popper. How many lives to do you ruin by making flippant administrative off the cuff decisions.

Yeah! No wonder they didn't want this bit of funner in the mix.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 22:28
I would recommend that you and your colleagues sit down and write a well crafted rebuttal to the FIDE EC  Judgement. I would walk them over hot coals with as much finesse as you deem necessary - but, wouldn't spare them the embarrassment of discovery.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-25 22:48
I am beginning to understand your signature.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 22:53
ORIGIN: early 19th cent.: French, literally ‘behind thought
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-27 19:51
Trou du cul as avatar.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-28 04:09 Edited 2015-04-28 04:13

> Trou du cul


I take it back - I was going to be civil but - I'm sick of bullshit like this slipping by so casually out of your mouth. You can be the most offensive creature.

You've lost your license to practice for being a complete unreasonable asshole. You use your sickness as an excuse to say the most vile things. What is unforgivable is that you do know better. You do know what you are  about and you do it  for effect. 

I just have  to think back on all that you've written 

and your avartar no longer reads "awrist" it reads

"Trou du cul"

and mine - should be crystal clear now !
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-28 16:30 Edited 2015-04-28 16:37
AP,

what is going on with you? Why so much confusion? Perhaps this true description of the event could explain to you, especially because of your undoubtable smartness, that nothing in my message wass something that could offend you if you look upon it with a minimum of objectivity. I think it was you who mentioned the talkchess page. So I became interested and opened the link. I read a message from someone called Alain Distel. I saw his avatar. Then I combined that picture eith your name in RF here. The rest was a conclusion. I wrote the term in French because you call yourself Alain. It was more a question to you. Because, sure, you may argue that AP here means 'thoughts behind something' and it makes sense. But then there ist thiss picture in your avatar. What does it show in your own interpretation? Of course it's not a photo, but with a bit fantasy I saw just what I mentioned. I didnt mean that because of that pic I should insult you. Nothing negative like that. I just made a combination of your name here with the pic. That here your name means almost a holy entity, that is ok for me, because I had no criticism for it anyway. My question now remains, why you are so aggressive now. This is going into something that is completely the opposit of what you meant to me all the time. For me you were a smart commentator with big knowledge and I read you with satisfaction. But what is this now? Where did I touch you in a way that you were unable to bear?  Do you want to forbid that I made such a combination? Again, that wouldnt be you, Alain.

But this here is a bit too much: You've lost your license to practice for being a complete unreasonable asshole. You use your sickness as an excuse to say the most vile things. --- What does it mean? I lost what? I use my sickness? Say what. A handicap isnt a sickness. Alain, you're completely off the road. Again, I didnt insult you. Even if I had, it wouldnt give you the right to completely lose your temper now. Proof? Read back what you've all written against Hyatt. Man, I took your own avatar on talkchess and said how I saw it. And I thought that it should be allowed to publish what I saw. But I want to ask you how you meant your message to Ed. Wsnt that a bit over the top and nasty? Excuse me, I was a bit surprised. It's just making no sense compared with all the good comments you wrote over the *years*. What is going on with you. What took you down to that irrational spot? I wished that you came back to your normal bite, Please. Perhaps this makes you laugh again: if I decided to insult you, Alain, I would never use such a short wording. If ever, I would write at least a message of three pages...
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-28 17:32 Edited 2015-04-28 17:56
. > You've lost your license to practice for being a complete unreasonable asshole. You use your sickness as an excuse to say the most vile things.  --- What does it mean?

That means you  need to take your medication and go lay down! :lol:

[edit]

Stop sticking your nose up other peoples assholes and sniffing around- its an nasty habit.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-29 20:59
Stop sticking your nose up other peoples assholes and sniffing around- its an nasty habit.

Let's better agree to disagree. Like computerchess it's an art to diagnose intestinal cancer, and I'm, well, just call me master with my Airborne Warning System. Psycho imbalance leads to cancer. It's tough if people reject my expertise as if they could live forever.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-30 00:36 Edited 2015-04-30 00:39
Rolf, I really don't want to waste time here with you!

You've had your head so far up your own ass for so long,  that the only crap  you  see - is your own- and that expertise that you speak so highly of- has been wasted on self- diagnosing just that -crap! 

Once in a while you make some viable coherent contributions!

Take your personal attacks some place else!
Parent - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-30 12:32
After the report of the EC FIDE it is clear that Vas was ethically abused by ICGA (plus pane result etc) but also by the many lookers here on his forum who tried to change a creative human being into a milking machine for their own needs. In reality all the pleas and orders of new updates were intended smear of Vasiks character and thus supporting the motto of the yearlong campaign. Therefore I was shocked by your joking against Ed whose reaction showed me his surprise when he said he should revise his understanding of your many messages of the past. Exactly in that moment I had read your message about the alleged important way of talkchess related to the FIDE decision. On that linked page of talkchess I sa your message there with your avatar (that looked to me as if it should show no ape icon but an ###). Because of the French user name A. D. I remarked the French word trou stc. That wasnt meant as an insult at all. It was the funny exclamation of a discovered avatar symbol. No insult here. I wrote something that means "Here I can see a trou." but I didnt write "you are one of a etc." Again, where is the insult against you? I pointed at the avatar and said there is the picture of an a###. Your stressing of an old usage from the past centuries doesnt help. In French it depends of the construcvtion in a phrase if you use arriere ou derriere. Derriere means from the old Latin the behind or if you want buttocks. Now we have the complete picture. If someone works with behind thoughts.... If then in the avatar one can identify a trou. then it's clarified although the typical Rohrschach test methods are a bit outdated. Because it's not absolutely clear what it should mean what a client does see. Although in context it become clearer. Anyway in such a forum with all the jokes and tongue in cheek it should be allowed to chose different meanings. The reason for possible confusion comes from those who introduced their foreign languages. It should be avoided to imply any insulting if someone non native speaker made misunderstandings. Could we at least agree on this conclusion? Normally nobody in an english forum is forced to master the language French and its speech excitements. -

THe story even goes on.

I visited the neighbor forum 'Open' and read the information that the famous BB also had a prename Alain S.. So who is who? Two Alains or only one? It wouldnt surprise me at all if those who like to publish their thoughts so actively would like to be members in as many fora as possible. I can only praise Hyatt again, because he always leaves no doubt where he's writing, wither under hyatt or bob. But that is almost easy with his legendary status. In the anti-Vas campaign BB however was really one of the most sportive marathon activists. BTW I had always the impression that he left out all insulting vocabulary. But under the impression of the EC FIDE I came to the new impression that BB wasnt presenting the living conditions of a creative programmer and artist Vas  with the necessary implications of giving him the chance of a doubt by the differencing intentional cheating from possible but not forced impressions. I think only expert programmers could have the experiences of such situations and having therefore possible explanations for many negligencies that surprised mainly laymen who never had been in these big shoes of inventors. From academics like Hyatt however I would always have expected that he were bound by his education and therefore avoid all evil possibilities like this awful hate campain over many years.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 18:51 Edited 2015-04-25 18:53
When you establish precedence -which was acknowledge by the EC-with regard specifically to Switz law and the ICGA regulations.

It can be argued- that the EC should allow for ethical precedence to supersede its own time framed regulations,  when considering a case history which contains unethical conduct perpetrated upon an individual going back unabated before their own rule change- to be include as evidence.
Parent - - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2015-04-25 16:51
What was the point of complaint if not to overturn ICGA's decision?
Parent - - By syzygy (***) [de] Date 2015-04-25 18:10
Compare the role of the Ethics Commission in this case with the role of an ombudsman. If one is not happy with how one was treated by an organisation, the formal recognition that a complaint was justified may provide some sort of relief and at the same time teach the organisation that it should improve its conduct.

In addition, in case Vas attempts to enter an ICGA tournament in the future and is rejected, it seems not unlikely that another complaint with the Ethics Commission would lead to a harsher sanction against the ICGA.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 18:15
Not if Rule 2 is up held!
Parent - - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2015-04-25 18:24
If Vas attempts to enter an ICGA tournament in the future, they will just demand a copy of the source to be examined by an expert. I doubt that Vas will agree, in which case they will disqualify him. FIDE's EC won't be able to do anything in this case.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 19:01
In point of fact, it isn't the ICGA that is in the hot seat now it's the EC if this thing goes south of cheese.
Parent - - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2015-04-25 22:02
Why?
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-25 22:29 Edited 2015-04-25 22:32
Depends on what the ICGA does! If they continue to blow FIDE off suggesting that FIDE has no teeth. FIDE may have lost the tempo. It has already made its ruling.

The only recourse FIDE has at its disposal now if the ICGA gets difficult is to break from them.
Parent - By AWRIST (****) Date 2015-04-27 19:40
If a dictator or fascist leader decides to introduce a democratically looking law or to inactivate a fascist decision would that mean that he is now a democrat or a role model for school children? Not at all. The fascism in these so called flaws lies in the disrespect of the lynching bunch for a member of their community. It's a fact that the hate campaign activists had no proof and no verdict of a democratic court hall, all they had was a lynch judgement without legal juristication. Because of that huge difference modern societies left lynch justice behind and  started with a sort of Roman Law. Especially in the American court system the protection of a fair treatment of the alleged criminal is decisive. The formal requirements are often more important than the easy conclusions from factual evidence. Perhaps this is the biggest obstacle for the hating collegues of Vas. They thought they finally reached to some evidence that nobody could deny. But they forgot completely that they had to respect the fair right of Vas to refuse that he should prove his innocense. Since the ICGA wanted to demand source codes in future, commercial programmers automatically lost their interest in this sort of stupidity. In consequence any championship is dead now. Chessplayers have Houdini and Stockfish for zero cents. Thanks to the shortsightness of Letouzey, Hyatt and Kaufman.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2015-04-25 11:22
I'm going based on what was written in the report.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Complaint to FIDE Ethics Commission
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