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Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-01-15 02:05
You have to know, that the Swiss are rather critical about their new citizens. I hope, you have enough money in your pockets!
Robert isn´t so choosy, maybe less than Kim Jong-il.
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-04-29 23:00

>Speaking for myself, I'd rather live in Switzerland than Zimbabwe.


Hmm, I could make a joke about the recent plant dignity considerations in the former, but I won't.
Parent - - By ExperiMental (**) Date 2008-04-30 13:55
Man this is freaking me out!  You posted a reply over three months later, right in the middle of a long faded thread.  I jumped in to see what was new and I couldn't find it although the forum tool was pointing me in the right direction.

Would you mind explaining this, just to satisfy my curiousity?

Is this about "Plant Dignity?"
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-04-30 23:57

>Man this is freaking me out!


Some of us know how to exploit the forum freak-out tool. :-P [Actually, it simply sometimes happens that the jump function can be off by a page or so, probably due to embedded graphics or whatnot].

>Is this about "Plant Dignity?"


Hmm, the original post was by VR detailing how Strelka 2.0 borrowed many things from Rybka 1.0 Beta. Then there was an intellectual property rights debate (well, maybe "debate" is a bit of a misnomer). Then NH intervened by saying that (as a rule) economic prosperity is more likely under a regime of secure property rights. Then I snarkily interposed that he was taking "economic prosperity" to be a universal good w/o warrant. Then he responded by noting that he'd rather live in Switzerland than Zimbabwe. Now (months later) I noted a recent article that describes the progressive(?) Swiss idea of plant dignity.
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2008-05-01 00:07

> Actually, it simply sometimes happens that the jump function can be off by a page or so, probably due to embedded graphics or whatnot


That should have been solved with the latest upgrade. Let me know if you still run into that problem. The page was always correct but the offset didn't take slow loading (external) graphics into account.
Parent - - By Wayne Lowrance (***) Date 2008-01-11 22:18
I am not happy with anyone that would take copy cat program for free just to avoid $40 bucks. That rubs me as poor character.
Both my sons make there living off of programming, so I take a position that if people got and my Sons work  for free, that is what I call stealing.
Wayne
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-11 22:25
This is not relevant in the case of strelka because he did reverse engineering for free rybka1.0beta and not for a commercial program.
This can be relevant in case that he is going to release code that is based on rybka2.3.2a

Uri
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-11 22:33
But it's still copyrighted material.  I think it would be on the same level as me taking a DVD, using a computer program to transform all of its contents back into raw data, and then turn that raw data into a movie, adding a few things of my own, burning it onto DVDs, and releasing them into the public for free.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-12 21:19
I don't believe it's as simple as a question of $40. Shakespeare wrote plays with characters that addressed the climate of these issues. One such character that stands out superbly for our example would be the character of Iago in Othello, and there should be no mistaking his genius for evil. He was dedicated to evil as a priest is dedicated to good and there are people who will put themselves to the test for it and in most cases it is all ego.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2008-01-12 21:43
What I am especially disappointed about during this tragicomical circus which annoys us since May 2007 is, how many people either don't want to accept the obvious, or are incapable to do so, or even dismiss any civilised standards, as it seems. One gets the impression that the average levels of intelligence and honesty in the computer chess community are lower than in a typical jail. Much of the (usually giant) Strelka/Belka discussions looked like an agglomeration of ignorance, stupidness, and roguery. It is probably the worst what computer chess has seen since it exists.

I consider myself fairly liberal, but this scandal gives a bad example of what happens if a sector has no authority which can secure at least a required minimum of 'law and order'. It results in anarchy, as soon as enough unscrupulos persons notice that they are (almost) unrestricted to do whatever they want.
Parent - - By SR (****) Date 2008-01-12 21:58
many people either don't want to accept the obvious, or are incapable to do so, or even dismiss any civilised standards, as it seems

Sorry, I am not sure what you are talking about?
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2008-01-12 22:24
What I mean is there was very clear evidence already, since right after the first Strelka release, that it is based on Rybka 1.0, including indentical bugs and partially identical output in positions. The message boards were full of that. Nevertheless, some people just would not accept it and would ignore all explanations. It is like some have no sense for reality, or think it is like a juke box where you can select the tunes you like (while it is not clear to me why they would like the idea so much that Strelka could be legal, maybe it is because they hate Rybka for whatever reason). Weird. Also, some seemed to care more for an anonymous crook and his "innocence unless proven guilty" than for a renowned chess programmer who got mugged for all the world to see.
Parent - By SR (****) Date 2008-01-12 22:41
Thanks for clarifying. I did not follow this discussion in details. I did not realize that anybody doubted that Strelka was (partly?) lifted.
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-12 21:48

> Shakespeare wrote plays with characters that addressed the climate of these issues.


My dear Sid, you are so dependent on the English language for your citations. :) Do you think that the Greek dramaturgs would not already have addressed these issues? The genius of Shakespeare was to reintroduce the Great Questions to an audience for which they had ceased to be of import.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-12 22:24
Oh, what in bloody hell are you talking about? For the love of God talk to me, man, not at me!
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 19:05
Rather than quote Shakespeare you should be quoting Thomas Hobbes, who noted that Man living in a state of nature had a life that was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short".  Quoting from Leviathan (Wiki):

Hobbes finds three basic causes of the conflict in this state of nature: competition, diffidence and glory.

"The first maketh men invade for gain; the second, for safety; and the third, for reputation. His first law of nature is that that every man ought to endeavour peace, as far as he has hope of obtaining it; and when he cannot obtain it, that he may seek and use all helps and advantages of war. In the state of nature, every man has a right to every thing, even to one another's body but the second law is that, in order to secure the advantages of peace, that a man be willing, when others are so too… to lay down this right to all things; and be contented with so much liberty against other men as he would allow other men against himself. This is the beginning of contracts/covenants; performing of which is the third law of nature. Injustice, therefore, is failure to perform in a covenant; all else is just."

So what this passage from 350 years ago basically says is "do unto others as you would have done to yourself."  If you look at this from Vasik's point of view, it is very obvious that somebody in Russia has not followed the Golden Rule and is rationalizing their bandit conduct in the same way that all bandits rationalize their behavior.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 20:19
Hi Nelson,

I've never cared for Hobbes, but regardless if you look closer into all of this you might find that this is a movement in Russian subculture not unlike Dadaism. It is well rehearsed and its intentions are very clear.

Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 20:24
However, beyond your armchair (pardon me for pun ) foolosophizing, and you do tend toward the verbose- Vas, had it right when he recognized that once the GUI was in place this will put an end to "most" of this nonsense. But, there will always be challenges to rights over property. :-) 
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 20:30
Nelson,

Bye the by, please show me where I quoted Shakespeare? I am not aware of " ever " do so! :-)  That is so typical of people who are so much in their own head and so ready to preach that they never get their facts straight.

Ta ta! :-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 22:07
You didn't quote Shakespeare, but you did refer to him.  Glad to see you're as pleasant as ever, Robert.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-13 22:29
Your right. I apologize for the sarcasm and edginess-none of that was fair to you.

regards
Robert
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-16 14:42
"rights over property"...

Upon making a visit to the dirty, stagnant pond known as the TalkChess forum, I was greatly surprised to see that Bob Hyatt is not only defending Strelka, but defending the rights of people in general to disassemble chess programs to "level the playing field".  I would have thought that even in the single-minded frame of extreme leftist academia, such communistic ideals would have been tossed out by obvious failures in history, theory, and logic.  I guess that the general population in Alabama is so conservative that the government universities must really go off the deep end in intellectual rebellion.  "Level the playing field"!?  My gosh!  Everything should be equal intellectually and otherwise!  Nobody should have to work for anything!  When someone gets ahead, we'll just level the playing field!  Well, I guess there is a particular presidential candidate he will favor, one who has made that quote practically the trademark of her speeches over the past 16 months or so, filling it in wherever possible from Vladimir Lenin's template.

Anyway, so now we have some people out who are genuinely, honestly justifying the Strelka cloning as something that is valid and good in that it "levels the playing field".  Ugh! 
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2008-01-16 15:17
I'm astounded by the comments he is making over there.  I guess if any of his students were planning on creating an innovative program and starting a company based on it, they're switching majors now...
Parent - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-16 18:52

> I guess if any of his students were planning on creating an innovative program and starting a company based on it, they're switching majors now...


Time for my daily dose of obscure quotes (poetic, to ensure that sidserious is content) --- from Ocalony by Różewicz:

Pojęcia są tylko wyrazami:
Cnota i występek
Prawda i kłamstwo
Piękno i brzydota
Męstwo i tchórzostwo.
[Concepts? no, mere words: virtue and malice / truth and lies / beauty and squalor / courage and fear].

Jednako waży cnota i występek
Widziałem:
Człowieka który był jeden
Występny i cnotliwy.
[Virtue and crime are evenly weighed / for I have seen: a man be both / criminal and virtuous].

Szukam nauczyciela i mistrza
Niech przywróci mi wzrok słuch i mowę
Niech jeszcze raz nazwie rzeczy i pojęcia
Niech oddzieli światło od ciemności.
[How do I seek a teacher, and a master! / let him restore my hearing, sight, and speech /
let him again name longings and beliefs / let him separate the day from the night].
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-16 16:06
I haven't read Dr. Hyatt's posts at TalkChess, but surely you must know that reverse engineering is a very common practice in just about every engineering field.

Pop quiz. Which of the following devices has not been extensively reverse engineered by competitors:

Airplanes
Automobiles
CDs
Digital Cameras
DVDs
Cell Phones
CPUs
Disk Controllers
Disk Drives
DRAM
Optical Drives
Printers
Radars
Radios
Rifles
Sonars
Televisions
Video Processors

Give yourself full credit if you answered "None of the above". Software actually has some minor advantages in that the author has copyright protection (which means very little people in many countries) and free reign in trying to hide the algorithms being used.

The real issue with Strelka is not that it was an attempt to reverse engineer Rybka (many had already done this), but that apparently the author created either a non-literal copy or a derivative work without permission from the real author.

Ideas are slippery things that tend to get out sooner or later. I suspect that Vas has learned quite a bit since he developed the demo product and that is will quickly become obvious that Rybka is not a one trick pony. The worst part about this whole affair is that in an effort not to allow this type of incident to happen again in the future, Vas will be spending a good deal of his time and effort in the future on obfuscating his engine's algorithms that could have been spent improving them.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-16 17:11
Vas will be spending a good deal of his time and effort in the future on obfuscating his engine's algorithms that could have been spent improving them.

...giving certain Russians just enough time to try to come up with something just as good...
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-16 17:29
In the short term, it's very possible that 2.3.2a is not as secure as Vas would like it to be and will therefor get the same treatment as the demo. This will increase the importance of getting a good Elo delta in version 3 and will significantly narrow the gap to the second tier of engines. In the long run though, I would expect the major threat to be the other serious engine developers that can absorb some of the ideas behind Rybka's strength and incorporate them into their own products, rather than our Russian friend whose main skills seem to be in the reverse engineering field. There's no getting around the fact that copying the work of others always leaves you running behind...

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-17 05:11

> Pop quiz. Which of the following devices has not been extensively reverse engineered by competitors...
> Give yourself full credit if you answered "None of the above".


[So... None of the above has not been RE'd]...
Uggh, double negatives... you're making my brain hurt. :) What we really need is a poll: What will Osipov RE next? :-P
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-17 05:21
Strelka3 might look a lot like Rybka2.3.2a if Osipov can get away with it. But tigers probably are aren't the only things that Vas can kill with his bare hands. :-)

Alan
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-17 12:33
I think he can also bench press an [adult] Osipov...
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-18 17:38
I wonder if it is legal to release code based on strelka or to sell a chess program that is based on strelka(Note that I am not going to do something like that without being sure that it is legal).
Note that Vas allowed to use rybka beta exe file with no restrictions.

I wonder if there is some case when a person who allowed to use his exe file with no restrictions won in court against somebody who did something similiar to Osipov by reverse engineering.

Is there some history case to be sure that it is illegal to really use rybka beta with no restrictions that means also to sell strelka or maybe it is not clear if selling a program that her code is based on strelka is illegal?

Note that it is not enough to show me a case when somebody who said nothing won in court and you need to show me a case when somebody who allowed to use his program with no restrictions won in court.

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-18 21:37
You need to differentiate between the algorithms and the software implementation.

The algorithms were never protected, except by secrecy and the difficulty associated with understanding what is going on in the code and data tables. If someone had reverse engineered the program and written an authoritative paper titled "The Algorithms of Rybka" giving a much more detailed description of the Rybka demo than what Anthony provided, there's probably not much that Vas could have done about it.

On the other hand, if you take a shortcut and reuse Vas's code, whether its a literal copy (reusing chunks of code), a non-literal copy (what you would end up with from reconstructing the code after reverse engineering and some cleanup), or a derivative work (making changes but leaving the structure essentially the same), there would be copyright issues.

I don't think the argument that because the author allowed unrestricted use of the demo executable, its OK to reverse engineer the code and redistribute it would go very far. The code itself was never put into the public domain and the rights to use the executable and the right to modify and redistribute the code are clearly differentiated. Precedents are hard to find for this situation only because its rather cut and dried.

Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-18 23:22
My question is if there was a similiar case when the court decided against somebody for getting the code from the exe and publishing the code inspite of the fact that the programmer allowed to use the exe with no resrtictions.

If there was no similiar case then it is not clear if releasing strelka was legal and it is not clear if people have the legal right to release new code or to sell new code that is based on strelka.

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-19 00:53
You seem to be questioning the legal viability of proprietary freeware, but this is a well established commodity. Here is an example of a case where a company was successfully prosecuted for violating the copyright on a freeware product:
Attachment: Panicware-MST.pdf (10k)
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-19 13:22
Did Panicware give written permission to the people who downloaded it to use their free product with no restrictions?

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-19 19:42
Probably not. Like almost all commercial concerns, including ChessBase, they probably had a EULA that said that the product could be used in any non-commercial setting but that reverse engineering the code was off limits. This sounds more significant than it is because in the end they were successful by pursuing the violation of the copyright rather than the license.

In regard to Strelka, it would be very surprising to me to see a court rule that Vas had put his code in the public domain by either action or deed, but of course stranger things have happened.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-19 20:57
Vas did not write that rybka beta can use with no restrictions except reverese engineering.

I do not know what the court is going to decide but I know that I am going to decide not quilty instead of the court in the case of Strelka that is based on rybka beta.
It is clearly possible to understand no restrictions as no restrictions to use the exe in every possible way and Vas can blame only himself for not being more careful in his words.

Uri
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2008-01-19 21:15
Uri, could you please give a reference to Vas' statement. You have repeated this so often that I'm getting curious.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-19 21:53
This is what written in the readme that people could download from the rybka site together with rybka1.0 beta and the Turk opening book:

"Contents & License

In this package, you will find the Rybka 1.0 Beta chess engine (dated Dec 4, 2005), as well as the Turk opening book by Djordje Vidanovic. Both versions of these components are free and can be used and transmitted without restriction."
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2008-01-19 22:30
I think you are reading too much into "use without restriction." For instance, this does not waive copyright. I believe that according to international law, an explicit statement to that effect is needed. Vas' statement doesn't fulfill that requirement  and therefore the copyright still belongs to him.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-01-19 21:16
Precedents have generally not upheld the very common EULA restriction on reverse engineering with the possible exception of reverse engineering of encryption/decryption code as covered by the DMCA which is still in limbo. Precedents for copyright violation are much stronger and this probably explains the nature of the cited precedent.

I understand your argument relative to Rybka, but I think you take things more literally than most and I suspect that a court would see the effort that Vas has put into keeping the code out of the public domain as significant. In this case, the developer of Strelka went to considerable trouble to reverse engineer the software. No reasonable person would do this if the code was available for the asking. I suspect the developer of Strelka didn't even bother asking because he knew very well, a priori, what the answer would be.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-16 17:56

> Everything should be equal intellectually and otherwise!


Indeed, Osipov should be forced to reveal his disassembly tricks/secrets to the population at large! I expect that a full technical paper on real-world disassembly (with special care to the case of Rybka 1.0) will appear soon. :-P
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-14 01:17

> you should be quoting Thomas Hobbes, who noted that Man living in a state of nature had a life that was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short".


The presumed effects of Monism are readily apparent in this quote... I prefer the Shakespeare analogy, though I'd say the question of evil [embodied in Iago] is more poignantly described not by the Bard, but by the Poet [Ovid in this case]: Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor [I see the way of right; indeed, I approve of it --- I choose to do elsewise].
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2008-01-14 04:10
Between you, Uri, Alan and Robert there seems to be no limit to the level of literacy in this forum, and I am not being the least bit sarcastic.  Very honestly I haven't seen a discussion group of this caliber since the very early days of the World Wide Web, when just about everyone using computers had a postgraduate degree or was working on one.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2008-01-14 05:42
Well, frankly, I don't see myself as holding a candle to you or Alan intellectually. However, I do see my self as tolerably intuitive enough to get by. 
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-14 07:05

> I don't see myself as holding a candle


No fan of Propertius? Viximus insignes inter utramque facem. [This is not easy to translate, as it is from an elegy - perhaps: "Life is distinguished between the two torches", but you still need to perceive the usual symbolism of the torch as life-giving being inverted for the funerary sense].
Parent - - By noctiferus (***) Date 2008-01-14 08:01 Edited 2008-01-14 08:11
inter utramque facem: aren't the two torches meaning "marriage and funeral"?
We lived honourably  after our marriage, before your death?
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-14 16:25

> inter utramque facem: aren't the two torches meaning "marriage and funeral"?


I'm glad somebody has the audacity to hesitate at the authority of my Latin-mongering. :) I claim no expertise here - perhaps I am unduly influenced by an idea from pseudo-feminist reinterpretation about the Roman sense: the "life" of a woman only began at marriage. [The conclusion, then, would be that the two torches would indeed be "marriage and funeral" for a woman, but an enlarged meaning could apply to a man].
Parent - - By noctiferus (***) Date 2008-01-14 16:34 Edited 2008-01-14 16:42
iin the case (?) I'm right, it simply depends on the fact that I remembered that it was written in memory of a woman.
Then I looked for this specfic citation, and found that,in the whole context, this interpretation could have been more suitable (the dead cornelia speaks to his husband): I would't have  dared to put forward another translation, defying your authority :)

Anyway, your interpretation is interesting, from a more general point of view.
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2008-01-14 17:10

> in the case (?) I'm right


Certainly most scholarship would agree with you that the torches are wedding/funeral. Indeed, the whole elegy is filled with allusions that link the two [one nice description is that of Curran, page 138 in particular]. Of course, if Cornelia had followed Paullus to death it would be completely obvious [as with gaudent victrices et flammae pectora praebent, imponuntque suis ora perusta viris]. I think this nuanced(?!) view is that birth/death for a woman was seen as identical to wedding/funeral.
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