Not logged inRybka Chess Community Forum
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Happy Easter & Happy Passover
1 2 Previous Next  
- - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-01 16:33
For those of you who celebrate-

Please, once again feel free to use this thread as a general greet among Rybka friends if you are so inclined.

Otherwise .

Happy Easter & Happy Passover
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-01 16:36
See you all on the other side!
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-01 22:12
Happy Easter
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-01 22:54
Happy Easter
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-05 02:32
For Those Who Celebrate Easter -this is what it is all about- No reason to be ashamed  to  admit to your beliefs. I openly admit to mine-

Happy Easter!
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-05 12:14

>No reason to be ashamed  to  admit to your beliefs.


I'm an Atheist.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-05 18:30
Well... you do believe in something!

Happy Easter
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-05 20:46
I believe that I am an atheist : )
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-06 05:52
And it has a set of beliefs.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-06 18:35

>And it has a set of beliefs.


No. Atheism is a lack of a belief in a god or gods.

A lack of a belief doesn't qualify as a belief, and someone being an atheist tells you nothing about them other than that they lack this particular belief.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-06 18:49
check this out as a believe system -

Logical arguments

Further information: Arguments against the existence of God, Problem of evil, Divine hiddenness
Logical atheism holds that the various conceptions of gods, such as the personal god of Christianity, are ascribed logically inconsistent qualities. Such atheists present deductive arguments against the existence of God, which assert the incompatibility between certain traits, such as perfection, creator-status, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, transcendence, personhood (a personal being), nonphysicality, justice, and mercy.[13]

Theodicean atheists believe that the world as they experience it cannot be reconciled with the qualities commonly ascribed to God and gods by theologians. They argue that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God is not compatible with a world where there is evil and suffering, and where divine love is hidden from many people.[15] A similar argument is attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-07 01:24
I wish I could get the citations from that Buddhism book. Not sure why you're quoting from there.

Anyways:

>Logical atheism holds that the various conceptions of gods, such as the personal god of Christianity, are ascribed logically inconsistent qualities. Such atheists present deductive arguments against the existence of God, which assert the incompatibility between certain traits, such as perfection, creator-status, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, transcendence, personhood (a personal being), nonphysicality, justice, and mercy.


This sounds like "gnostic atheism", which would make a positive claim that there is no god.

The vast, vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists, who make no such claim.

The following dialogue makes the distinction clear:

Q: Is there a god?
AA: Unknown.

Q: Do you believe there is a god?
AA: No.

There is such a thing as 'igtheism', which does something similar (not congruent!) to the 'logical atheism' explanation above (I've never heard this logical atheism term before this). Igtheism holds that the idea of a god or gods isn't coherent enough for rigorous discussion. Some of the examples given are things that chip away at its coherence. I have a lot of sympathy for this argument; there certainly seems to be some coherence problems.

>Theodicean atheists believe that the world as they experience it cannot be reconciled with the qualities commonly ascribed to God and gods by theologians. They argue that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God is not compatible with a world where there is evil and suffering, and where divine love is hidden from many people.[15] A similar argument is attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism.


I've never heard of 'theodicean atheism' either.

Omniscience and omnipotence have nothing to do with evil (why does the paragraph mention them?).

Just because god is not omnibenevolent does not mean that god does not exist. Plus to prove benevolence in a rigorous way you probably need the highly problematic objective morality.

If Siddhartha really made this argument, it is a naive one. Not that this really matters in Siddhartha's case, he had far more important matters to attend to.

So, I'm not impressed with either of those two paragraphs, and I don't think the distinctions made are known to the atheist community at large, or would be useful to it.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-07 01:31 Edited 2015-04-07 01:36
My point is simply that atheism can be regarded as a  system of beliefs.

[edit]

I wasn't attempting to relegate you to any one particular sect! That would be presumptuous of me.
Parent - - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-07 09:06
nope. your error here is that you have a belief XYZ and that someone who doesn't have XYZ belief must have another belief to compensate. but that's not so, the other person just has a zero belief, or a don't care.

you are analogising religion to food, it being a must have. If you don't eat meat then you must substitute with nuts or something. But religion is not a must have, it's just a choice. you can equally not have it  at all. commonly however you would claim it is substituted by rationality or science, and that therefore science is a belief. btu science isnot a belief it is a method.and stuff in science, you don't believe, you accept until overthrown or something better comes along
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-07 16:04 Edited 2015-04-07 16:15
No you are assuming too much and being too simplistic in your assumptions. Anyone who claims that they hold no beliefs - is claiming they exist in a vacuum. That is utterly ridiculous. If you want to defend that -you are of the ridiculous. In order for someone to arrive at the "idea"  of  Atheism - they had to come by a belief system to get there. Do you want to debate that point?!

Labyrinth, is trying to argue from a point of anomaly-as if , he ,  some how entered into the concept of  Atheism by way of a miracle of spontaneous realization- which would make him all knowing -in fact -a God.
Parent - - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-07 16:54
I haven't arrived at the idea of atheism, I wouldn't call myself an atheist because I'm just not interested on that stuff. YOU would call me an atheist. It's not my word, not my idea, I don't care, I only give it the time of day because there are mad people who believe in magic, are unable to take sensible decisiosn, and say things like "I am a christian", and if I say I am not, then they ask what are you then, and I say none of that crap - then they say oh you're an atheists, how did you arrive at that belief system?!
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-07 17:16

> YOU would call me an atheist


I wouldn't call you anything! :yell:  You tailed into this discussion dude- I didn't say, "Hey! Chris! You're Atheist -what the hell do you have to say for yourself?" :lol:

I know you better than that! You just lov to start a rant! :cool:

No rant here for you bro! :smile:
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-07 18:43

>Labyrinth, is trying to argue from a point of anomaly-as if , he ,  some how entered into the concept of  Atheism by way of a miracle of spontaneous realization- which would make him all knowing -in fact -a God.


I don't understand what you wrote here.

For one, why would the spontaneous realization of any idea render a person omniscient?

Second, I was born lacking a belief in anything. How could I hold a belief with no mind to hold it with?

I had a lack of a belief in a god before I knew that this state of mind had a label, and definitely before I understood the concept.

I'm not saying I don't hold any beliefs, this is impossible with a mind past a certain stage of development. For example when I go to sleep at night, I believe that I will wake up the same species as before I went to sleep.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-07 20:50 Edited 2015-04-07 20:56
What is there not to understand? My be I am misunderstanding you or you're treating  atheism as a state of being  derived at exclusively  absent any inner/and or outer human  experiences, whether cognitive, or, bio/psycho/socio founded on in your personal history.  Atheism is a sexual preference that you are born with. To belief so  is totally ludicrous to even contemplate.

Even to speculate intuitively -that is based on an intuitive belief. For Jung that was part of a psychological function.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-08 01:27

>you're treating atheism as a state of being derived at exclusively absent any inner/and or outer human  experiences,


Of course, atheism is a lack of a particular belief.

>Atheism is a sexual preference that you are born with. To belief so is totally ludicrous to even contemplate.


What were you born believing?

>Even to speculate intuitively -that is based on an intuitive belief.


You must be using a different definition for belief than any that I am familiar with. I don't see how 'intuitive speculation' requires any beliefs.

>For Jung that was part of a psychological function.


It was a function not a belief. A type of information processing.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-09 15:28 Edited 2015-04-09 15:31
.

> It was a function not a belief. A type of information processing.


Intuition is very much still based on a belief system in Jungian psychology!  As is his pairing functions of sensing, intuition, thinking, and feeling with its concomitant attitudes -extroversion and introversion! 

This is one of Jung's Major Belief systems in psychology. How could you possible say otherwise.

Jung's Psychological Types
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-09 22:39

>Intuition is very much still based on a belief system in Jungian psychology!


Jung considered it a type of information processing. I don't know where 'belief system' comes in.

No definition of 'intuition' that I am aware of has anything to do with belief.

A person can have an intuition, or use their intuition for something without believing in anything.

>As is his pairing functions of sensing, intuition, thinking, and feeling with its concomitant attitudes -extroversion and introversion! This is one of Jung's Major Belief systems in psychology. How could you possible say otherwise. Jung's Psychological Types


You're talking to someone who has spent like, a decade studying Socionics, of which Jung's psychological types are a key base ingredient. I'm very familiar with the subject you're describing, but I haven't heard the term 'belief' used there.

It wouldn't make sense if it was. The functions aren't about beliefs. They are types of mental processing of which a person develops certain affinities for as their personality forms.

Using these affinities certain predictions can be made about how a person will behave, or interact with persons of different, similar, or identical affinities.

This was an absolutely brilliant idea by Jung, and one that I wish there was 100 times more interest in from the psychology community, but such is not the case.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-09 22:48
okay, I'm not going to nit-pick this any further with you! Psychological Types are based on a system of belief.:lol:

No matter which way you go with all of this it end up a system of beliefs. :wink:
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-09 23:28
Yeah, I don't understand and you aren't explaining.

Why would intuition require a belief?

Intuition:

Dictionary.com

noun

1. direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.

2. a fact, truth, etc., perceived in this way.

3. a keen and quick insight.

4. the quality or ability of having such direct perception or quick insight.

5. Philosophy. an immediate cognition of an object not inferred or determined by a previous cognition of the same object. any object or truth so discerned. pure, untaught, noninferential knowledge.

6. Linguistics. the ability of the native speaker to make linguistic judgments, as of the grammaticality, ambiguity, equivalence, or nonequivalence of sentences, deriving from the speaker's native-language competence.

Dictionary.com (British)

noun

1. knowledge or belief obtained neither by reason nor by perception

2. instinctive knowledge or belief

3. a hunch or unjustified belief

4. (philosophy) immediate knowledge of a proposition or object such as Kant's account of our knowledge of sensible objects

5. the supposed faculty or process by which we obtain any of these

Seems like the Brits have got your back here. In that case intuition would literally be a belief though. Of course that is only one definition, and imo not the definition we were using.

Wikipedia.com (Entry: Intuition_(mind))

Jung defined intuition as "perception via the unconscious": using sense-perception only as a starting point, to bring forth ideas, images, possibilities,patterns, ways out of a blocked situation, by a process that is mostly unconscious.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-09 23:32
The entire theory of  Psychological Types -is bases on a system of  belief! GOD Help YOU!  The one you don't believe in! :yell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_type :lol:
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-10 01:24
That doesn't answer the question.

Why would intuition require a belief?

If intuition is something the brain does, where does belief come in?
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 02:48
Intuition is used within a system of beliefs. You're going to drive yourself insane.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-09 23:33
Don't nit pick this you'll drive me insane!
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-10 01:25
I'm not nitpicking, I really don't understand what you're talking about. Your replies don't seem to fit my posts.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 02:56
I'm being open minded - how you think and perceive reality is more complex than you are willing to admit. Beliefs are shaped by many things both internal and external of your being - and that includes your belief that there is no God. Whether you are willing to recognize those influences is of no concern to me. But they should be of major concern to you in understanding your own psychic development.
Parent - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-10 07:14
Again, no idea. It's like you're responding with random text.
Parent - - By Ugh (*****) [fr] Date 2015-04-11 20:13
careful with the open mindedness, your brain might fall out ;-)
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-11 22:05

> careful with the open mindedness, your brain might fall out ;-)


I am tolerant and open minded of others paths! But, Brother, :grin: I do find it difficult to be tolerant of  those  who  out of sheer ignorance, act the role of   provocateur -  using worn-our clich├ęs-exhibiting a simplism that is truly- closed minded.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-11 22:07
Step-back - act right - and dig yourself! :lol:
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-09 23:42
We can actually whittle this down to the supernatural - very easily. Okay! Hang on to your G string. Here we go!
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 06:15

> . Philosophy. an immediate cognition of an object not inferred or determined by a previous cognition of the same object. any object or truth so discerned. pure, untaught, noninferential knowledge.
>


How do you know this?
Parent - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-10 07:16
How do I know it? You mean how does dictionary.com know it? Was just quoting that page, didn't want to leave anything out.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 06:36
Intuition as a Belief system gone over the edge!

http://www.trans4mind.com/jamesharveystout/intuitio.htm
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-10 07:55

> Why would intuition require a belief?


I think it's the other way around, intuition creates belief.

The origin of religion is the notion (by intuition) something is missing.

And the brain (driven by its inborn curiosity) wants answers, knowing the situation it is in.

So, in a way a man is hardwired to believe in something and in search for truth he will accept logical explanations that make sense to the brain, the situation he is in and the sum of his experiences (objectivity). But also this search for truth is polluted by his desires and dislike of possible explanations (subjectivity).

The cocktail explains the directions mankind has chosen.

My 2 cents.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2015-04-10 08:02

>I think it's the other way around, intuition creates belief.


That makes much more sense, but it's not what sid was saying.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 16:42 Edited 2015-04-10 16:47
I can't do this any more- if you want to deny the existence of "belief" that's fine with me! :grin:

I give up!

O' imagination, which at times so snatches us
     Out of ourselves , that we are conscious of nothing.
     Even though a thousand Trumpets sound about us.


Purgatorio, XVII 13-15.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 16:07 Edited 2015-04-10 16:14
What does my intuition tell me based on a certain situation that I am experiencing. What I bring into that experience is a system of belief -they can change - they are not fixed at any one point in time. I might not make radical changes in my my belief system. But, then  one never knows- given what the circumstances of my experiences may bring at any one  given moment in time.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-10 21:52

> What does my intuition tell me based on a certain situation that I am experiencing.


For the record and in addition to my previous post, my intuition tells me that something ain't right in this world, namely the existence of evil. It doesn't belong here. Something we all can understand and wish for. A moral compass only humans possess. Science doesn't give me answers on the problem of evil, neither how humans could develop a conscience, awareness, morality, a sense for justice. Nor that science can explain what time is and why it is temporarily and what purpose it serves.

The only way to make sense of this (crazy) world is religion, that it all serves a purpose.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 22:55 Edited 2015-04-10 23:23
I would say that  what you have learned of the world and how it uses things- developed out of its scientific knowledge- concomitant of what you know to be  right and wrong- regardless of what trickles down out of science to be used for the common good,  your intuition tells you of a foreboding , that cannot be dismissed, and where this may all end isn't going to be morally justifiable in the end. Intuition is very much a part of your belief system. For some the dominate role will be "feeling" for others, "thinking" will be ruling the end result.

addendum

I personally - don't care what anyone believes or disbelieves. When I studied Buddhism- I made it clear that I would not give up my Christianity. That irked some  but  the monks, I had cross paths with, who were born into their religions understood me well enough.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-10 23:23

> Intuition is very much a part of your belief system.


You still have it up side down, not that it matters :wink:

We aren't born with faith or unbelief. Whether raised religious or not at some age we have to answer the hard questions. It's only thereafter you can quality yourself as a believer or non-believer.



>For some the dominate role will be "feeling" for others, "thinking" will ruling the end result.


Or instinct and thinking.

And a third element, a religious experience.

Quite a mix.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-10 23:27 Edited 2015-04-10 23:31
We were discussing Jung! Instinct! eh! :smile:
Naw! I don't have it upside down. I had it right!
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-11 00:01
I will say this. I am not totally unfamiliar with you. I've read what you posted that was personal to you.

There is one book that I would seriously recommend:

Rudolf Otto

The Idea of the holy

If you can identify with what he is talking about, it will stay with you for the rest of your life. It becomes a validating experience. I have had way too many of these to count.
Parent - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-11 08:01
I took the time to read some reviews on the Otto book. It's not where my main interest is in. I am not looking for experiences although my faith was triggered by an experience. It's where we split in our way of thinking. My main interest and focus is on understanding why the world is what it is and why an omnipotent and omniscient Creator (who lives outside time) and therefore knows everything on beforehand why He let it all happen this way (evil, death, suffering, diseases, wars, earthquakes, ebola, etc. etc.) while we also believe He is omnibenevolence which for many folks is an obstacle since they will argue God due to His omnipotent could have done it differently, creating a world without evil, death and suffering.

IOW, there has to be a master plan wherein everything fits and every why is explained satisfactory. And even better, why this way is the only right way and all other ways are inferior.

That's quite a puzzle to solve but these are legitimate questions if you believe that God is all loving and 100% just.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2015-04-10 23:43

>I personally - don't care what anyone believes or disbelieves. When I studied Buddhism- I made it clear that I would not give up my Christianity.


Good to hear.

Because (IMO) of all religions Christianity not only addresses the hard questions but also answers them.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2015-04-11 00:08 Edited 2015-04-11 00:11
Actually, the monks were weary of those who came them all to ready to shed the religion they were brought up with. Their take was that they knew little of  the religion they came with and Buddhism was only a fade to them, and that they weren't ready to  the work necessary

[edit]

I was more interested in learning Abhidhamma. Buddhist psych!
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Happy Easter & Happy Passover
1 2 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill