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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Odds from Rybka vs GM. What I'd like to see.
- - By staylor (***) Date 2008-01-08 01:15
I would greatly like to see Rybka give knight odds to a big GM.
One would think that Joel Benjamin would then win every game, but I would like to see that!
In fact, I don't even mind if it is someone stronger against computers than him, I still would expect Rybka to win some.
Just DO it! Please!
Everything else should be fair.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 01:34
Actually Joel did play some blitz games with Rybka on his previous visit at knight odds. At three minute without increment he was losing, but when we switched to 3 minute plus 1 second increment he won pretty easily. If you are referring to slow chess like an hour or more, the GM would win virtually every game. But I think some intermediate handicap might be pretty interesting, such as rook for knight, pawn and move, or perhaps knight against f pawn.
Parent - - By JhorAVi (***) Date 2008-01-08 01:55
What about two pawn odds ? :)
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 04:05
There is a precedent; Kasparov played a 4 game match against a British tycoon (perhaps around 2200 level) at two pawn odds, winning by 1 game. But since Rybka has not yet even proved that she can give a 2600 GM 1 pawn successfully at FIDE time control (the two successful matches were faster than this), it is way premature to talk about two pawns. Also, the last step in pawn odds is the classic "pawn and move", meaning Black removes the f7 pawn, and this handicap is by far the largest pawn handicap, as Black experiences severe difficulties in developing and castling. Only after succeeding at that large handicap would two pawns make sense.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-08 04:37
I know you made the general statement, but do you think that pawn and move with the f7 pawn removed and having black is near the same amount of odds as the a2 and h2 pawns removed and having white, or is the former really that much easier?
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 15:01
     The edge pawn handicaps are much smaller than the others, so I would guess that odds of the two edge pawns as White is actually a smaller handicap than the f7 pawn. I'm running some randomizer tests to be able to compare the Elo value of these various handicaps. I don't think that the handicap of the two edge pawns is a very interesting one though (although I'm including it in these tests) as neither side can castle on either side with total comfort and so the game is rather unlike normal chess.
Parent - - By FirebrandX (**) Date 2008-01-08 03:17
Actually what I'd like to see for odds is "2 moves in a row on the first move". As white, the GM would simply move twice on move one (say e4 & d4 for example). As black, the GM basically becomes a mirror version of white, with some twists like 1. e4 d5-dxe4 where black has pawn odds of sorts. The logistics would have to be worked out where you'd have to set up the position from move 2 and have Rybka think from there.
Parent - - By JhorAVi (***) Date 2008-01-08 03:58 Edited 2008-01-08 04:01
Two moves in a row is not enough against Rybka with a specialized book for it.

Make it 3 moves in a row to be fair.    I can even suggest 4 moves in a row if not for the schollars mate
Parent - - By souk (*) Date 2008-01-08 04:01
I would like to see the gm have 50% more time than rybka .
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 04:15
I guess you are not aware of the second Ehlvest match, in which he got double time, all White pieces, and no book for Rybka after move 3, and still Rybka won by 4.5 to 1.5 without a loss. In my opinion, if a 2600 GM plays at FIDE time control and Rybka (on a quad) plays blitz (5 min total), still I would bet on Rybka if there are no other advantages thrown in. Turn off ponder as well and it might be a tossup. This sort of match doesn't interest us, as we want to see how well Rybka can play at full power, not how much worse we must make her play to give GMs a chance.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 04:10
Three moves feels right to me. Rybka always plays Black, and White gets two extra free moves. Three moves in the opening are worth a pawn or a bit more, so this should be about like pawn odds with alternating colors as in the earlier Benjamin match, which might have been about right at the FIDE time control. Also, the handicap can be described as normal chess where Black's first two moves must be ...Nc6 and ...Nb8.
Parent - - By FirebrandX (**) Date 2008-01-08 05:32
Agreed. It would be quite interesting to see what kind of formations the GM plays with three moves in hand. I'd probably play it safe with Nf3-g3-Bg2 and then castle on the 2nd move. :-P
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-08 15:08
I would definitely use the moves aggressively (e4 and d4 at least). Playing defensively with a fianchetto is no way to exploit a lead in development.
Parent - By staylor (***) Date 2008-01-09 02:14
See my response also Vas below.
I really thought that an extra knight for the human would take time to tell the extra power. I thought the machine would readily find other ways of making problems by which time there might be a little innacuracy it could pounce upon.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2008-01-08 14:43
If you're talking about normal time controls, please check back in 2012 or so :) Right now, it's not really feasible.

Vas
Parent - - By staylor (***) Date 2008-01-09 02:08
Ah! but I was sure a GM would make some innacuracies enough for the best Rybka to get things very uneven and tactical, and make the odd a little smaller, with a long game ahead, and the GM having to work very hard right from the opening..... asuming the computer understands opening play very well without books.
But if it is true as Mr. Kaufman said, then I must be simply wrong.
I thought the human would find it harder to adjust.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-09 04:57
A knight is just a really big handicap. It takes quite a lot of small mistakes to throw away victory in a knight odds game, or else one or two really big mistakes. I play enough knight odds games myself to tell you that at intermediate speeds (like game/30) it is roughly a 600 point handicap when I am the one giving the odds. But the higher up you go, the greater the handicap, so if I were on the receiving end it would be at least 800 points at game/30 and perhaps 1000 at 40/2. As there is as yet no 3400 rated program, I would be a big favorite at knight odds 40/2 against Rybka today, and I'm about a class below the GMs we are talking about.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-09 07:31
I think we should start with a player with rating 2000 against rybka with knight odd at 90+30 time control(rybka without knight b1 starts).
If rybka can win a match of 6 games then give the same challange to player with rating of 2100
If rybka can win a match of 6 games then give the same challange to player with rating of 2200 and continue with that way.

Note that I will not be surprised if rybka lose against a player with rating 2000 in these conditions assuming that the 2000 player takes the match seriously and train at home against rybka with the same conditions by trying different openings for rybka.

Knight is a lot in chess.

Note also that not always the stronger player in winning with material advantage is also the stronger player in winning normal games so it is possible that 2000 player may win when 2100 player lose.

Uri
Parent - - By JhorAVi (***) Date 2008-01-09 14:48
I think knight odds is too much against a GM. Even I who has no rating at all just beat Rybka 2.3 without Queenknight twice in a 5min blitz awhile ago.   In our last game i'm Queen ahead in the endgame but only 1 second left on my clock! Luckily Rybka resigned  :) :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-01-09 16:30

> In our last game i'm Queen ahead in the endgame but only 1 second left on my clock! Luckily Rybka resigned  :-) :-)


But Rybka never resigns, it must have been the GUI.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Odds from Rybka vs GM. What I'd like to see.

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