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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / God's elo rating ? Maybe other question !
- - By Silvian (***) Date 2008-01-03 09:57
The right & interesting question is:

which ELO involves the solution of the chess game ?
Can somebody to try a response ?

Regards,
Silvian
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-03 13:50
Whatever is the answer, it's definitely lower than God's elo--we have discussed this in depth, too, but in pieces and fragments as parts of responses on other parts of the discussion (you'll see this discussion every time someone mentions "32-man tablebases").  I recall that this would be partially contained in my long "derivation" of God having ~3850 elo.  I would think now that a path involving the solution to the chess game would have something like 3600 elo; my original discussion was more geared toward a "neutral" God to some extent, so the main difference now is that I think that 32-man tablebases are rated lower than what I previously suspected.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2008-01-03 20:32
Of course, it's very different if you let a strong centaur to look at the 32men tablebases :)
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2008-01-03 22:19
It is clear that God cannot score more than 50% against the 32 piece tablebases
so by the right choice of the opponent it can be number 1.

Of course rating is meaningless if you do not decide who plays against who so questions about rating are meaningless.
You need to define specific list of games and opponents and conditions before I can answer you about rating.

You can ask what is going to be the best CCRL rating of chess programs or the best CEGT rating of chess programs or the best SSDF rating of chess programs.

I see other questions as meaningless.

Uri
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-03 23:17
Well, we can safely assume that if we have an opponent of some high rating, then there will also be opponents in between that rating and whichever other rating you like, and they will be sufficiently spaced so as to provide an accurate rating.  Yes, I know this wasn't the case with Rybka for quite a long time (though part of that is due to testing factors causing significant overestimates in rating differences), but it can still happen if you wait long enough.  I'm assuming the ideal case, of course, as I think everyone is who is answering the question.
Parent - By Hetman (*****) Date 2008-01-03 20:36
It depends on the level you assign for the base - newcomer. Elo is relative not absolute measure.
The other problem that can be many soultions  if they are. Which one you want to estimate ?

Rgds
Hetman
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-03 20:40
How about this question: the rating of a 32 man tablebase, if among all non-losing moves the choice is made based on a randomizer playing a million games with each move against a search depth equivalent in rating to the opponent?
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-03 21:08
Ooooh--you have (1) 32-man tablebases AND (2) a randomizer actually able to use these tablebases?  You are trying to create a machine to mimic God playing chess? :-)
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-04 03:43
Well, I'm trying to rephrase the question in a way that removes theology from it and is pretty unambiguous. Still, the answer depends on the level of opposition.
Parent - - By SR (****) Date 2008-01-04 01:07 Edited 2008-01-04 01:16
The right & interesting question is: which ELO involves the solution of the chess game ?

No this is not the right question. A better question is: With 1 TB memory for an opening book what rating is required for white/black to hold the game?

I think 3100 is enough to hold the game for white, while maybe 3500 is required to hold the game for black. In both cases a very strong opening book is needed.

"The solution for chess" will have to consider openings like the Najdorf, where black might (in expressionistic terms) need a "4000" rating to hold the game. If certain very sharp openings have to be played (as a requirement for both players) perfect play might require a rating of 6000 or even more. These very sharp openings might need to be considered in "solving" chess, but are irrelevant for what rating is required to hold the game.

As I pointed out frequently - though people does not seem to "get it" - the level of play of a 32 table base depends on heavily on how it selects moves in equal positions.

If the moves in objectively drawn positions are selected randomly in my judgment a 32 table base will have a rating only slightly higher than its opposition for players with rating +2200 (in other words even a 2200 player can draw almost all games)

If the moves in objectively drawn positions are selected as generously as possible (e.g. playing 1.Nh3 followed by 2.Nh3-g1)  virtually any player can get a draw e.g. by answering 1.Nh3 with 1.-Nf6 and after 2.Nh3-g1 play Nf6-g8!.

If the moves in objectively drawn positions are selected by a chess engine in my view it does not matter that much if the program is weak or a strong. I think that a 3500 engine equipped with an extremely good 1TB database is necessary but also sufficient to hold the initial position for black.



Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-01-04 02:00
This is a deep post, though it looks silly at first.  Obviously the question itself is quite arbitrary, as it's meant to be, but such things would become very important, for example, if Fischer rules were implemented (i.e. draws not counting), in which case the "solution" would be for both players to go for the sharpest lines.
Parent - By Silvian (***) Date 2008-01-04 08:11 Edited 2008-01-04 08:22
No,no,no............if we have the 32 men tablebase all opening books possible are included.

I reword my question :

which ELO involves the winner(?) of a very long match ( around 1,000,000 games-to say) ,at a very long time control,between two entities: one ables to built up & use the 32 men Tbs ,the other ables to built up & use the 31 men TBs (lacks the analyse of the pawn on a2/a7 square-for example) ?

Regards,
Silvian
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / God's elo rating ? Maybe other question !

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