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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs. Antares 0-1
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- - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-23 06:37
Enjoy the game Uly.

1. *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-06-23 07:13
Oh, hehe, I remember that in the past I used to start new games in a regular basis. This time, I haven't started one in several months. What, more than a year? Something like that.

I have nothing prepared, all I remember is that I have saved some superb-defense against d4 that basically has ensured a superb-equality position, so I'll just go with this one, best by test!

1. e4

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq -


And if you intend to go for the Petroff, let's call this a draw already, I don't think I'll ever find a breakthrough to that, though I hold black has much better options to try to mount a counter-attack :wink:

Good luck and have fun!
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-23 07:31

> Oh, hehe, I remember that in the past I used to start new games in a regular basis.


Must admit, i also feel pretty incomplete without a single running corr-game at least... :grin::lol: Still, as i haven't upgraded my chess-laptop and time is very limited due real-life, expect me to move at the same pace as yourself (i mean i wasn't even online in corr-chess for a half year now...) around every third or fourth day in best case.

> I have nothing prepared, all I remember is that I have saved some superb-defense against d4 that basically has ensured a superb-equality position


Would be interesting (via PM maybe) what defence-"name" you have in mind there... i'm willing to discuss. :smile:

1...e5 *

> And if you intend to go for the Petroff, let's call this a draw already


Is there a Petroff in the 2. f4 Kings pawn gambit? :razz:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-06-24 07:18

> expect me to move at the same pace as yourself (i mean i wasn't even online in corr-chess for a half year now...) around every third or fourth day in best case.


Well, look at my other opponents in these sections, you may be moving faster than them in any case! :lol:

>Would be interesting (via PM maybe) what defence-"name" you have in mind there... i'm willing to discuss.


Haha! No, I'm not willing to discuss my secret openings with a potential opponent! If you want to see it, you'll have to play 1.d4 against me, I don't think you'll beat me! *dares* :evil: - otherwise, yeah, that's the only reason I won't play 1.d4 in any game in the future...

Anyway, let's give my OTB analysis some use here!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4

rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-24 12:42

>> in the past I used to start new games in a regular basis. This time, I haven't started one in several months.


Well actually you claimed not wanting to start any new games but just finishing the remaining ones, and i see 478 ones remaining between us. :lol:

> Well, look at my other opponents in these sections, you may be moving faster than them in any case! :lol:


Could be worse, imagine Vas would be your opponent... :wink::yell:

> Haha! No, I'm not willing to discuss my secret openings with a potential opponent! If you want to see it, you'll have to play 1.d4 against me, I don't think you'll beat me! *dares* :evil:


I fear the same as i usually draw myself, yet of course -from a theoretical standpoint for further discussion- it would have been interesting what especially you have in mind there.

> - otherwise, yeah, that's the only reason I won't play 1.d4 in any game in the future...


So you don't play it fearing -on occasion with a 0.00000473%-chance just in case the right constellation of Saturn, Jupiter and of course Antares is given- i would play it against you or you somehow implicated will avoid it by white's play yourself?

> Anyway, let's give my OTB analysis some use here!


Well, i know (from your statements of your games vs. omprakash) that the Italian game is one of your little favorites, so i'm disappointed that you avoided 2. f4!!! but not that surprised...

2...Nf6 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-06-28 16:16
3.d4

> So you don't play it fearing -on occasion with a 0.00000473%-chance just in case the right constellation of Saturn, Jupiter and of course Antares is given- i would play it against you or you somehow implicated will avoid it by white's play yourself?


No, these are mainlines I can draw against, they're easy to find, and I'd not know what to do against them. Basically I'd just offer a draw there so better to just not play d4 at all.

> Well, i know (from your statements of your games vs. omprakash) that the Italian game is one of your little favorites, so i'm disappointed that you avoided 2. f4!!! but not that surprised...


I don't think I've ever played f4 on my own volition? And, anyway, 2.f4 is one of the openings that I have mostly analyzed, because of my games against deka series, and other such challenges. White has nothing there. And it's full of positions what engines and me don't understand, so it's not worth the risk.
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-29 00:00
Well yes, mainlines are mainlines for a good(=drawlikely) reason. :yell:

3...exd4 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-06-29 13:25
Yeah, but I'd rather reach a position where both sides have winning chances. I don't think white can do that with d4 if black wants a draw.

4.Nf3
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-29 22:42

> Yeah, but I'd rather reach a position where both sides have winning chances.


Me too, yet -as you didn't directly communicate your wishes- it was a little unclear which move of mine you here hoped for reaching such a position... in the end i decided to accept the "Urusov Gambit" you offered (or did you want to go for the 4...Nc6 5. Ng5 "Two Knights - Perreux Variation?):

4...Nxe4 *

rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/8/8/2Bpn3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 5
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-06-30 07:53
I was hoping for the Urusov, yes, I already played the Perreux against keoki and couldn't beat him.

5.Qxd4
Parent - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-06-30 12:42
5...Nf6 *
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-06 12:42

> I was hoping for the Urusov, yes


Yet you don't seem to be really prepared to face the challenge... :grin::lol:
Hope everything is fine with you, a week without a chess-move is a lost week... :sad:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-08 20:59
Sorry, didn't have time to check this until now.

What happened is that back in May 2012 I was invited to join a tournament, and it was one with some gigantic time controls of more than one year per game or something. So I qualified to the next phase, but I had no idea when was it going to start.

So I checked monthly to see if the next phase had started but nothing.

Then, a week ago I checked it and realized that the semifinals had started...

And I was playing 16 players simultaneously on the tournament.

Never in my life have I played so many people at once.

Not only that, it had started 15 days before I checked, so I was already 15 days down on the clock against everyone else XD

So, I had to recover from that, but as soon as I moved in some board I had to move in another o_O

And now, at all times I have to move in some board :surprised:

But I have finally managed to recoup my time on the clocks, I would rather spend a week doing that and now give the proper attention to this game than try to juggle my hours with this game and end worse in some critical game there (which I never know which one will be, I may need the time to save the game or try to win the game in some board, but I have no idea what game would that be, so I have to save my days in all).

But now that that's done expect me to move normally on this game :smile:, I hope the wait is worth it!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4

rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/8/8/2BQn3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNB1K2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-08 22:42
Oh, no worry Uly, just thought you may have problems/illness or something and whether i can help... good luck for your (ICCF?-)tournament in each case.

I already moved 5...Nf6 to this position btw. :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-12 03:03
Haha, two weird things happened here:

-I didn't mark that I moved Qxd4

-I moved Qxd4 without thorough analysis, lol

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3

rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/5n2/8/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R1B1K2R b KQkq -


>(ICCF?-)


Yes, thanks. I was a bit disappointed with the strength faced in the first group, I lost a game on time (I had 50 games on the clock, but if you take more than 40 days on a move you're forfeited) that I was going to win, I even considering abandoning the tournament because of that silly rule, but I still finished 1st so it didn't matter.
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-12 10:24

> Haha, two weird things happened here:
> -I didn't mark that I moved Qxd4
> -I moved Qxd4 without thorough analysis, lol


I also was a little disappointed that you didn't play 5. O-O!! in a very real true gambit-style :grin:, but i think we can live with it.

6...Be7 *

rnbqk2r/ppppbppp/5n2/8/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R1B1K2R w KQkq - 3 7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-13 07:51
5. O-O!?

I'd glady play the position after O-O!? from the black side after this game :grin:

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5

rnbqk2r/ppppbppp/5n2/6B1/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R b KQkq -


Ponder Hit! :evil:
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-13 08:28
Believe it or not, here a ponder-hit as well... :smile:

7...h6 *

rnbqk2r/ppppbpp1/5n1p/6B1/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq - 0 8


> I'd glady play the position after O-O!? from the black side after this game :grin:


Will think about it. :grin:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-15 10:04
Well, despite expecting h6 I can't claim this as a Ponder Hit, I just had to double check this move :lol:

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4

rnbqk2r/ppppbpp1/5n1p/6B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-15 13:17
Ponder hit! :evil:

8...d5 *

rnbqk2r/ppp1bpp1/5n1p/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq d6 0 9
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-18 05:29
Must admit that I didn't check 8...d5 at all, and now notice OOO is forced. I wonder if that's hilarious or sad!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O

rnbqk2r/ppp1bpp1/5n1p/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/2KR3R b kq -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-18 07:37 Edited 2014-07-18 07:42

> Must admit that I didn't check 8...d5 at all, and now notice OOO is forced. I wonder if that's hilarious or sad!


White got three good opening-moves for the pawn plus a pretty deep attack, so Black must play very carefully here and cutting down lines may be a already good idea. :smile: My move here is forced as well... with the next moves (and when i have time to revisit the positions) i will release my analysis&thoughts of all the other defense-systems&tries we have seen in corr-play, in most i think white has improvments never seen before...

9...c6 *

rnbqk2r/pp2bpp1/2p2n1p/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/2KR3R w kq - 0 10
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-22 02:36
Well, I'm playing here ply1 moves, unless you're already winning this is forced too!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1

rnbqk2r/pp2bpp1/2p2n1p/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/2KRR3 b kq -


So much pinnage XD
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-22 06:53 Edited 2014-07-22 06:59

> this is forced too!


Ironically most of the other systems (will post a short review like i promised over the next days/weekend) have a lot of these forced moves as well... yet i think that this one is the currently most interesting, "top notch" so to say. :smile:

> So much pinnage XD


That made Urusuv/Ponziani's gambit fascinating us for over 200 years now... so much pressure on black's position, even Kaufman had so much respect of it that he excluded it of his repertoire at all (he has given the secure 4...Bb4+ which gives an easily drawn endgame)!

10...Be6 *

rn1qk2r/pp2bpp1/2p1bn1p/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/2KRR3 w kq - 2 11
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-27 07:31
Well, I'm fairly certain this is the last time I play the Urusov, or the Bishop Opening, so let's see what comes out of it! XD

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3

rn1qk2r/pp2bpp1/2p1bn1p/3p2B1/7Q/2NB1N2/PPP2PPP/2KRR3 b kq -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-27 11:31

> Well, I'm fairly certain this is the last time I play the Urusov


Ok, then i won't waste our times with deep analysis of all the other tries we have seen the last 200+ years in this opening (some are summarized on Michael Goeller's nice homepage and additional information here, strangely he doesn't mention any h6-systems at all...), but restrict to my pretty simple conclusion of the Urusov gambit: I think Black shouldn't castle short (thats indeed what White's attack is largely based on when you consider all its pieces more or less now pointing to Black's king-side, there are plenty of variations to reach (nearly) the same attack with earlier ...O-O as well) but opt with its king to stay in the middle in best case (11...Kf8 isn't bad as well, but i don't like the passitivity of the arising positions out of it and think the king is better off on its maybe later way to the queen-side) - a lot corr-(and OTB-)games have been seen simply bringing the queen-knight out and castling long while giving back a king-side-pawn - ideas which i also didn't like as i want to try holding on this (center-)pawn to the endgame or at least trying giving it up later when it makes more sense. (Corr-)GM&WCH Estrin propagated 7...c6 which i think isn't good because now White's queen doesn't necessarily must go to Qh4 (and therefore no ...h6 can't be brought in in a alot of transpositions!) which is actually something Black wants knowing it won't castle short... i didn't like 7...Nc6 -being in the way of the c-pawn- either as Black is limited to a somehow passive ...d6 after Qh4 (with White in corr-play having much better tries than most of what we have seen till today), but at least 6...Nc6 seems to be playable combined with 7...Bb4 (my trust in 7...Qe7+ is also limited because White's king is fine on f1! and Black's queen on Qe7 is just another possible pin...) and trading off the bishop for the dangerous knight like we have seen pretty recently on higher level in Nightingale vs. Serazeev @ ICCF/RCCA2013 were i think White missed a better (yet most likely for Black still holdable) try. Having said that, in my opinion the exact order of Be7/h6!/d5/c6 like chosen in this game -cutting down a lot of White's transposition&variation lines including castling short- i would consider Black's best try for an open game (yet it has to be kept in mind that my hardware is pretty slow and i may have overseen things in my analysis, so i encourage everyone playing more Urusov's against me... :grin::lol:).

> [...] so let's see what comes out of it! XD


Indeed that's the main intuition of my next move as well:

11...Kd7 *

rn1q3r/pp1kbpp1/2p1bn1p/3p2B1/7Q/2NB1N2/PPP2PPP/2KRR3 w - - 4 12
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-29 12:12
Whoa! Kd7 is a move I'd have never expected or considered playing. At all.

At least I have a clear plan now, though I doubt you'll allow it, engines are just playing the black side poorly, which makes it hard to analyze...

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2

rn1q3r/pp1kbpp1/2p1bn1p/3p4/7Q/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/2KRR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-29 13:37

> Whoa! Kd7 is a move I'd have never expected or considered playing. At all.


What did you expect or what would you have considered playing? Three weeks ago when i reached this position and decided for 11...Kd7!? (and therefore for going with the 'Be7/h6!/d5/c6'-move-order over the other systems i described in my last post) i asked Nelson whether it's a novelty... and was somehow really surprised that this move was already played three times, firstly&successfully only by engine Chessmaster 6000(!) which won with it back in 1999 (and later by human "Sergio61"/2009 and engine "Chess Tiger 2007-12"/2010 who both lost with it, so your statistical odds are actual a fine 66% with 0% draws :grin:)... so at least it is a corr-novelty! :smile:

> At least I have a clear plan now, though I doubt you'll allow it, engines are just playing the black side poorly, which makes it hard to analyze...


Let's see... as you know my next move is practically forced and must allow a lot because actually white dictates the sharpness of play at the moment:

12...Bd6 *

rn1q3r/pp1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/3p4/7Q/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/2KRR3 w - - 6 13
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-07-30 07:37
11...Nbd7, developing your Knight that is now being blocked by your King.

Anyway, I don't think I've got what this position requires. I tried something I've never tried before: Contempt Learning. The idea here is that, I increase my contempt and pretend I have an advantage I don't have. If black equalizes that, I increase my contempt and try again. I could reach any arbitrarily high contempt (say, one where I play as if I was a pawn up) and in the way discover positions where I actually have the advantage (if not as huge.)

But things didn't work out, because, the more I increased my contempt, the lower my evaluation :confused:

Which only meant one thing: Black can draw this position at will.

Yeah, even if I was a pawn up, black could just go and force a draw.

Which means, my plan doesn't work, the positions where I actually have an advantage can always be avoided by black, and any attempt to deviate from that gives black the advantage.

So, my only chance here is if you ever try to win as black and overreach in the process, otherwise, I have nothing.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4

rn1q3r/pp1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/3p4/Q7/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/2KRR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-07-30 11:13 Edited 2014-07-30 11:15

> 11...Nbd7, developing your Knight that is now being blocked by your King.


Which is indeed the reason why i didn't like it: It lets a) my king stay dangerously in the middle while taking away a good square (d7) he can potentially go to and b) doesn't suit my style prefering active kings... but indeed Nelson's database has given 50% for it (which is far better than the 33% for 11...Kd7)...

> I tried something I've never tried before: Contempt Learning.


Rest assured, this is also my main-line, so currently our analysis match each other...

> Black can draw this position at will. [...] So, my only chance here is if you ever try to win as black and overreach in the process, otherwise, I have nothing.


Well, i will again (there were already three more drawish moves on the way, but going for this as long as play is left isn't my style anyways...) avoid the secure draw (13...Qb6 14. Qh4 Qd8 15. Qa4=) and hope you will remember it someday when you have a similar decision to make - for the sake of the game :grin::

13...a5!?

rn1q3r/1p1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/p2p4/Q7/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/2KRR3 w - a6 0 14
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2014-07-30 13:22

> which is far better than the 33% for 11...Kd7


I hardly need to point out the perils of using three games played years ago to draw statistical inferences of any kind.  Confidence in empirical results is cumulative, typically yielding imprecise but suggestive data.  I will never forget a Freestyle game I played in 2006 where my opponent played a weak opening, leaving me with a big advantage.  Overconfident, I automatically picked a move that up to that time had scored nine wins in nine games.  It was a losing move, terrible in retrospect, and I was badly beaten!  A painful but valuable lesson.
Parent - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-03 18:42

> I hardly need to point out the perils of using three games played years ago to draw statistical inferences of any kind.


As we corr-players say "A single analysis-session says more than thousand games!"... yet the historical&statistical aspects are always interesting information as well... yesterday i bought my copy of Chessmaster 6000 -capable of playing 11...Kd7 it must be masterpiece- and hopefully it will boost my play further. :smile::grin::lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-03 19:55
Anyway, to add to Nelson's comment, yeah, I could probably produce 10 games of similar quality from the position after 11...Kd7 on Nelson's database, but I don't think that'd be useful at all :lol:

>avoid the secure draw (13...Qb6 14. Qh4 Qd8 15. Qa4=)


Would have played 14.a3! there of course :wink:

--------

I know you're modest and all, but a5 deserves two exclamations points, at least!

All my evaluations went to heck, and for some moments there I was looking desperately for a draw! :lol:

For all I know, Qb3?! could lose here or something, it's never good to be in such a position!

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1

rn1q3r/1p1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/p2p4/Q7/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-03 21:37 Edited 2014-08-03 21:43

> Anyway, to add to Nelson's comment, yeah, I could probably produce 10 games of similar quality from the position after 11...Kd7 on Nelson's database, but I don't think that'd be useful at all :lol:


Well, i think our current analysis-trees could (and with this game actually will) contribute 'state-of-the-art'-knowledge regarding the Urusov-gambit to Nelson's book, yet one can see particularly with the game of Chessmaster 6000 back in 1999 (which moves i don't know) that there CAN(!) be a lot of value in each single engine-game (which speaks for his quantity-approach, my games-collection for example didn't have 11...Kd7 at all), especially when you consider that a lot of todays engines -especially in bullet/blitz-play- move/ponder out still a questionable 11...O-O?? or a at least positional questionable*  11...Kf8?! (which may be even fine for a hard-fought&thought draw, yet White gets interesting attacking-prospects collecting all of the king-side pawns which ends Black's king being naked, therefore 'positional questionable').

---

> I know you're modest and all, but a5 deserves two exclamations points, at least!


Well, i worked out my typical positions-tree with the help of three engines, and all three had different favorites: a5, Re8 and Kc8. Analysing a little bit i understood that it is some kind of system where often all three of these moves can be brought in sooner or later, and the question is often just which order makes most sense... so while a5 was my first choice, my analysis-preference switched over to the other two moves soon, but in the end i just thought that bringing in one of these three moves for a likely Kb1 might be just a pretty good deal (but obviously you might just prove me wrong). :grin:

> For all I know, Qb3?! could lose here or something, it's never good to be in such a position!


At least you must like to sacrifice with this move! :lol:

14...Re8 *

rn1qr3/1p1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/p2p4/Q7/2NB1N2/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 w - - 2 15
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-10 01:01
Man, I have so much to say that I'll divide it into sections XD

First, the reason for my delay.

It's related to our current game, remember when I said?:

"I have saved some superb-defense against d4 that basically has ensured a superb-equality position"

And then I claimed how I could draw at will against d4, blah, blah blah?

How cute I was back then XD

I don't know about that variation, but white can avoid it and go to a position that I had marked as "black has equalized, with nice black winning chances", but I was terribly wrong. My opponent had a big bomb in the horizon, and I spent hours every day trying to refute it, and at some point I even thought I was losing.

But today was the day when my opponent was meant to throw the bomb, and apparently, he missed the move, so my defense went to waste :roll:. But at least I've equalized there and now should be able to move faster again in our game.

--------

>Well, i think our current analysis-trees could (and with this game actually will) contribute 'state-of-the-art'-knowledge regarding the Urusov-gambit


I'm fairly certain I've played sub-optimally, when black has an edge like you have one just has to wonder "where did white go wrong?" and find a better prior move. But, I went for this because in all other variations I found black had an easier way to draw. We'll see how the reversed game goes but we may have "refuted" the Urusov (in the sense white has nothing to do in it, it's better to just go for the Spanish or something.)

--------

>i worked out my typical positions-tree with the help of three engines


I've been using 7 engines for this game. This is always a bad sign, as my analysis methods fail I have to add more and more engines to compensate, so the more engines I have to use the more trouble you're causing me!

--------

>14...Re8


Not the move I was expecting, the other one was leading to dangerous positions that it took me days to "refute."

Though, again, Qb3 may be losing here.

So, I'm aware there's some positions, that I will refer to as "hell", in where white has to fight up to its teeth to save the game, but as long as I'm able to avoid them I should be fine.

This move seems kind of forced.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4

rn1qr3/1p1k1pp1/2pbbn1p/p2p4/Q2N4/2NB4/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-10 13:24 Edited 2014-08-10 13:31

> "I have saved some superb-defense against d4 that basically has ensured a superb-equality position"


I think there may be a few very solid systems against 1. d4: Playing for a (must-)win KID may be the exclusive choice, playing for a secure draw Gruenfeld is a good choice as well (like Paul's play in WBCCC -based on Kaufman's analysis- proves round for round)... and most likely QID, Nimzo-Indian, the whole Orthodox-branch or even Benoni and the Benko-/Blumenfeld-gambit may be as well - it often may just come down to what your opponents preferences are (where does he head to, what does he avoid? Does he play for a draw with white or seek complications?) and whether you can exploit those... a task which gets more challenging in corr-chess with every single day of hardware&software-improvements. So while your lines read like a crime thriller where you don't tell me the murder (eh "the bomb"), it would be indeed interesting to get known to this mysterious line or at least what bigger branch we are talking about (->PM?!)... :grin:

> he missed the move, so my defense went to waste :roll:.


Don't think its for waste, it adds to your (analysis-)experience! :smile: Besides that, your lines read you "being pretty happy" (maybe because of the "missed move"), and that's good as well. :wink:

> I've played sub-optimally, when black has an edge like you have one just has to wonder "where did white go wrong?"


It's actually also the line i regard best for White. As you know, noone ever played this line/system Black has chosen here... so it has yet to be seen where it leads to.

> I've been using 7 engines for this game


I'm using simply a (very) positional one, a tactical and a very aggressive/sharp(contempt=100 :grin:)-one.

>> 14...Re8
> Not the move I was expecting, the other one was leading to dangerous positions that it took me days to "refute."


I guess you expected 14...Na6? This was indeed my first approach (13...a5&14...Na6) when i switched over examining 13...Re8 and 13...Kc8 when i realized that 13...a5 14. Kb1 Re8 may be playable as well.

> Though, again, Qb3 may be losing here.


Yes, with Re8 played its now a lot weaker.

I considered here a long time whether i should stay with my a5/Re8/Kc8-system but finally decided to go for:

15...Na6 *

r2qr3/1p1k1pp1/n1pbbn1p/p2p4/Q2N4/2NB4/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 w - - 2 16
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-12 15:39

>(->PM?!)... :grin:


No, if you want to see the line you'll have to play d4 against me and play your best attack and do the best you can to win. If you think some move other than d4 gives you better chances then we agree this is pointless because d4 is suboptimal.

>Don't think its for waste, it adds to your (analysis-)experience! :smile: Besides that, your lines read you "being pretty happy" (maybe because of the "missed move"), and that's good as well. :wink:


Oh, right, if that line was going to be busted, it's better to do it now.

Besides, if my other d4 defense is busted similarly, I can start playing d4 and drop this bomb in someone :evil:

>It's actually also the line i regard best for White.


Then I think after playing the Urusov White should try to force a draw ASAP at this level. I haven't seen a single line where White can turn the tables, or try to, black is having all the fun.

>I guess you expected 14...Na6? This was indeed my first approach (13...a5&14...Na6) when i switched over examining 13...Re8 and 13...Kc8 when i realized that 13...a5 14. Kb1 Re8 may be playable as well.


I'm not going to answer because I think my replies could give you an advantage :wink: - happy to play a game later on with colors reversed from the move I thought you were going to play, though.

Anyway, this is forced.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6

r2qr3/1p1k1pp1/n1pbNn1p/p2p4/Q7/2NB4/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 b - -


--------

One of my fans is failing, so I'm getting my CPU to 80C temperatures, and then it shuts down. I'm having to resort to using some engines at 3CPU, some at 2CPU and one at 1CPU (because it still greatly overheats at 2CPU! XD), though this will only affect time to play moves, not the quality of them.
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-12 20:04 Edited 2014-08-12 20:46

>(->PM?!)... :grin:


:yell: My opinion is that none of White's first moves wins nor losses by force, and as chess is probably a drawn game and therefore all first moves are good (enough for a draw), its indeed highly dependent on your opponent what to play... you're a classic/romantic/tactical player/defender (like myself) and therefore maybe the classical 1. e4 or a little-offshore 1. g3/Nf3/Bg2-KIA testing (beyond engine-evals) might be more interesting than seeing you drawing down 1. d4. :smile: (while others take the challenge playing KID/Slav where there is a lot of fun as well...)

> Then I think after playing the Urusov White should try to force a draw ASAP at this level.


Like i pointed out above, especially in the most recent high-level ICCF-game linked there, normally White has most of the fun (especially as Nightingale seems to have missed a way better continuation!), but with the h6/d5/c6/.../Kd7!-system i have chosen here its indeed questionable how White can start the usual attack on Black's king, and playing for a draw will not be trivial with giving a pawn firsthand... on the other side even our current position is most likely still theoretically drawn (sadly) or at least the path for victory involves a lot of analysis&work: for the pawn you have given me you got three opening-moves (and one opening-move/tempo is around ~1/4-1/3 pawn (plus White's opening advantage), so basically i had a 1.00 material-advantage while you had a ~1.00 positional-advantage), and i'm currently working on cutting your positional-advantage down to let my material-advantage shine... :grin:

> I'm not going to answer because I think my replies could give you an advantage :wink: - happy to play a game later on with colors reversed from the move I thought you were going to play, though.


In case we're talking about Na6 (or Kc8) - yes! :razz::twisted::grin: But as i pointed out above i delayed Na6 (and neglected Kc8) with good reason as i saw that i can basically get Re8 in for your Kb1, which in my opinion was a pretty good deal... every other move would be shocking because i obviously would have missed it in my analysis. :smile:

Ok, i will take with my f-pawn:

16...fxe6 *

r2qr3/1p1k2p1/n1pbpn1p/p2p4/Q7/2NB4/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 w - - 0 17


Edit:

> One of my fans is failing, so I'm getting my CPU to 80C temperatures


In case its the CPU-power-one you should wait for replacement or put another fan of the tower onto it, else simply opening the tower and constructing some kind of custom-airflow might help as well... but all of this hassle was one of the reasons why i got rid of my desktop-system (two-core at that time) and bought a few (old, yet nice) IBM laptops... which i really love. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-14 22:57

>you're a classic/romantic/tactical player/defender (like myself) and therefore maybe the classical 1. e4 or a little-offshore 1. g3/Nf3/Bg2-KIA testing (beyond engine-evals) might be more interesting than seeing you drawing down 1. d4. :smile:


True.

Where we disagree is when you say that since all openings are drawn with perfect play, that all of them are playable. I think one should play the one that makes it the most difficult for the opponent to draw or win, in this case 1.e4 is the superior alternative, in all cases, no matter the opponent, just because once you're out of book it'll be easier for black to equalize or counter attack against 1.d4.

On equally matched opponents, you may be right, and it may not matter. But this becomes more and more important as the strength of the opponents diverge. I have played some weak opposition (no offense to them*) where I have played games with 1.d4 and 1.e4. The 1.d4 games were drawn, and some e4 games were wins.

I guess to play d4 successfully you have to prepare some specific advantageous variation that you want to reach and if the opponent deviates they're even worse. With e4 I've never had to prepare anything and can find such variations on the fly (if they exist, they didn't exist on our game, lol!)

*(I call them weaker opposition when I'm able to beat them from the black side, and call them strong opposition when they're able to beat me from the black side. In correspondence chess I think this is the ultimate test of strength.)

>i'm currently working on cutting your positional-advantage down to let my material-advantage shine... :grin:


I guess you've already done that, so I guess after the dust settle you will just appear one pawn up. Too bad an advantage of one pawn isn't enough to win :razz:

Anyway, I've been able to find moves that are clearly best than the alternatives somewhat easily here. That can only mean that either we're on a sharp position (and I'll be fine because I just need to make sure I don't abandon the main line), or the position is unclear (and I'm going to lose. I.e. the clearly best moves lead to my doom but I can't see far enough to notice it.)

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6

r2qr3/1p1k2p1/n1pbpnBp/p2p4/Q7/2N5/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 b - -


>In case its the CPU-power-one you should wait for replacement


Thanks. I'll say I have no idea which one it is. Actually, it's all speculation. My computer started overheating and after cleaning all the dust it's still overheating. So I can only speculate some fan is failing, though everything seems exactly the same as when it didn't overheat (that is, all fans seem to be behaving normally.)

I'll have it checked later on, but it's isn't a priority (I have prioritized finding workarounds, like, if I stop the engine every 30 seconds and let it rest for a couple ones, I can avoid it overheating and I can still use 4CPU.)
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-15 11:11

> I think one should play the one that makes it the most difficult for the opponent to draw or win, in this case 1.e4 is the superior alternative [...] But this becomes more and more important as the strength of the opponents diverge.


As stated above i don't think so, as opening-choice in my opinion should be always based on the opponent you play. Take Paul for example: In WBCCC he plays Breyer against 1. e4 (he formerly also played Marshall) and Gruenfeld against 1. d4... and against 1. c4 he tries to transpose back to Gruenfeld (Kaufman has given a few transpositions in his book as Larry fears facing White having the "Black side of Sicilian with the opening advantage") or aiming for positions comfortable for Black where White has already committed a suboptimal move... based on this knowledge Alvin tricked him into a superior "Benoni-like" position (which he somehow couldn't convert), which easily made/makes 1. c4 a better choice over 1. e4 or 1. d4 against Paul... and when you remember the struggle Matt created beyond engine-evals indeed KIA (g3/Nf3/Bg2...) may be as well more suited&wise than trying to refute Breyer/Gruenfeld. :smile: And i would even play 1. g4 against someone where i know he answers 1. g5...:grin:

> Too bad an advantage of one pawn isn't enough to win :razz:


I think Black has currently 1/3 pawn advantage (which basically means that you still have a positional 2/3 pawn advantage subtracting my 1 pawn material-one), and obviously i have agreed to both 16. Nxe6 and 17. Bg6 in my decision for 14...Re8 (over 14...Na6 and 14...Kc8). :smile:

> Thanks. I'll say I have no idea which one it is. Actually, it's all speculation.


Opening the case and seeing, looking up in BIOS or even software like SpeedFan may help here. But obviously it can just be that your summers are pretty hot or the cooler is not fitting perfectly on the CPU...

> [workarounds] I can avoid it overheating and I can still use 4CPU.)


Reminds me to my old desktop-system, where the board toasted several kind of memory sticks (but only those with the Micron-chips on it) and giving not blue screens but loud short-circuit faults... in the end i had fear even starting it, when i started using Elpida-chips and it finally worked like it should... which was reason enough to sell it. :grin:

17. Re7 *

r2q4/1p1kr1p1/n1pbpnBp/p2p4/Q7/2N5/PPPB1PPP/1K1RR3 w - - 2 18
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-16 07:29

>Take Paul for example


What I see about NATIONAL12 is someone that plays the board, not the opponent.

And I'd focus more on being more like him (i.e. play the board) than about thinking what would I play against him :wink:

>I think Black has currently 1/3 pawn advantage


About 1/4 around here, but, yeah...

>Opening the case and seeing, looking up in BIOS or even software like SpeedFan may help here. But obviously it can just be that your summers are pretty hot or the cooler is not fitting perfectly on the CPU...


Thanks, got it checked today.

The verdict:

All the fans are fine.

Welp.

Apparently, I need to apply some new thermal paste on the CPU or something. It would cost me some $30 to do that, so I think just monitoring my temperature and stopping it from being too high would work.

(and, we did test how hot could it get. Perhaps I've been worrying too much, while Intel's website's has maximum temperature at 71C, the computer doesn't just get to 80C and shuts down, it can actually go to 82C and still not shut down. This means it should be fine as long as I don't have it running that hot for hours, but stopping the engine every 30 seconds is over kill, I don't think I have to stop it after five, and I rarely go over 1. The times it has shut down I wasn't monitoring it...)

Anyway, this move seems hard currently XD
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-16 13:57 Edited 2014-08-16 14:01

> And I'd focus more on being more like him [Paul] (i.e. play the board) than about thinking what would I play against him :wink:


Uly, what i don't understand regarding our discussion regarding White's first-move and whether playing the board or your opponent: You stated above "1.e4 is the superior alternative" & "best by test!" besides that "Well, I'm fairly certain this is the last time I play the Urusov, or the Bishop Opening [2. Bc4]" as well as "And if you intend to go for the Petroff, let's call this a draw already, I don't think I'll ever find a breakthrough to that [2. Nf3]" which makes me wonder what second move you actually want/will offer for an [superior alternative] advantage... :wink: Of course you can hope that Black doesn't go for the Petroff (guys like armageddonx, Scott and even you and others will go for it sometimes though), but isn't this actually then playing the opponent and not the board? :grin: Playing the board, like Paul, indeed often implies hoping that your opponent sidesteps theory and making suboptimal moves to avoid draws... while this has often worked for him (like in his games vs. Ruben or George), it's certainly not my style... in the end i think playing the opponent is the only magic left in this (drawn) corr-game.

>That can only mean that either we're on a sharp position (and I'll be fine because I just need to make sure I don't abandon the main line), or the position is unclear (and I'm going to lose. I.e. the clearly best moves lead to my doom but I can't see far enough to notice it.) [...] About 1/4 [pawn advantage] around here, but, yeah...


This is an interesting assessment to our position, but you have a faster computer than me currently and may see more than i do... personally i think that Black's position is a lot better and way more based on gaining positional strength in wide depth over just one sharp line, but currently a little underrated because engines think that Black's King is a weakness and engines are still dreaming that some weaknesses associated with it can be attacked - which in the end may be just not the case (or you may prove me different). But we will see... i really like 14...Re8 here, a move never in prior sportlight of engines, but really improving the position over the other two alternatives (though both favorites 14...Na6 and 14...Kc8 [15. Nd4 Bd7] might have been playable as well). But we will see... actually we play a game to find a (final, if this is ever possible...) conclusion to the whole discussion. :smile:

> Apparently, I need to apply some new thermal paste on the CPU or something. It would cost me some $30 to do that


This can indeed improve/solve the heating-problem... don't know about prices in Mexico, here you get one for $5 and it is exchanged in a quarter hour...

Have fun and enjoy analysis.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-16 21:12

> but isn't this actually then playing the opponent and not the board? :grin:


No, I'd make the same decisions regardless of who I'm playing.

>but you have a faster computer than me currently and may see more than i do...


I doubt it, I think you're analyzing way more positions that I'm analyzing.

For this move I analyzed 27 positions. How many do you analyze? I recall that when I saw your analysis file you were analyzing a lot more than me, so I probably just analyzed the positions you had seen already 6 moves ago or something.

I don't think hardware is playing a part here.

>actually we play a game to find a (final, if this is ever possible...) conclusion to the whole discussion


Of course. My position keeps looking better and better so if you beat me it'll be because my evaluation was garbage.

>you get one for $5 and it is exchanged in a quarter hour...


I mean, buying the whole bottle of thermal paste that would be used for another 4 times or something (so, say, if I need to apply thermal paste every 4 years, this one would last me until 2030...)

Anyway, here's my move, clearly best :wink:

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2

r2q4/1p1kr1p1/n1pbpnBp/p2p4/Q7/8/PPPBNPPP/1K1RR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-19 06:42 Edited 2014-08-19 06:46

> I think you're analyzing way more positions that I'm analyzing. [...] For this move I analyzed 27 positions. [...] I saw your analysis file you were analyzing a lot more than me


Well, i wouldn't call it positions in my case but more moves/nodes, but yes, i usually come over several dozens or even hundreds of them to make a decision.

> I mean, buying the whole bottle of thermal paste that would be used for another 4 times or something (so, say, if I need to apply thermal paste every 4 years, this one would last me until 2030...)


Even the smallest $5-bottle should be useful for ~3 applications... the secret is indeed to not use too much paste, but just that little to overcome/fill the differences of both surfaces (cooler and CPU heat spreader).

> Anyway, here's my move, clearly best :wink:


Its indeed a key-idea to re-group the knight back into play...

18...Nc5 *

r2q4/1p1kr1p1/2pbpnBp/p1np4/Q7/8/PPPBNPPP/1K1RR3 w - - 2 19
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-21 07:29

>Well, i wouldn't call it positions in my case but more moves/nodes, but yes, i usually come over several dozens or even hundreds of them to make a decision.


Yeah, I estimate you check about 5 times more "nodes" than I do in average, this should offset my hardware advantage.

Anyway, got a big fail high here, will leave it unresolved.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4

r2q4/1p1kr1p1/2pbpnBp/p1np4/7Q/8/PPPBNPPP/1K1RR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-21 12:42

> Yeah, I estimate you check about 5 times more "nodes" than I do in average, this should offset my hardware advantage.


I may buy one or two of the upcoming octa-cores (Haswell-E) till Christmas, and i'm also looking forward into the "new experience of analysis", as i most likely will work as hard as i always do and those ones can be >=32x as fast as this one, resulting in ~5 (2 to the power of 5 = 32) levels of depth more.

> Anyway, got a big fail high here, will leave it unresolved.


I'm still calculating with ~1/3 pawn advantage (with uptick), was just surprised that you moved Ne2 before Qh4 as i would have moved Nc5 against any other move anyway.

Btw., as i have written above of the differences of 14...Re8 and 14...a5, we can now see that your (pretty forced) Kb1 in the end gave me the Nc5-tempo over 14...Re8 15. Nd4 a5 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Na6 Qh4 Nc5 ...

19...Kc7 *

r2q4/1pk1r1p1/2pbpnBp/p1np4/7Q/8/PPPBNPPP/1K1RR3 w - - 1 20
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-26 07:55 Edited 2014-08-26 08:00

>I may buy one or two of the upcoming octa-cores (Haswell-E) till Christmas, and i'm also looking forward into the "new experience of analysis", as i most likely will work as hard as i always do and those ones can be >=32x as fast as this one, resulting in ~5 (2 to the power of 5 = 32) levels of depth more.


What I learned about upgrades is their benefit mainly depends on your analysis methods. When I upgraded, my new computer was 10 times faster than my old one. And I had trouble adapting to the speed, mainly, several of my analysis methods became obsolete, and I had to undergo a lot of experimentation to find new successful method.

A big problem I had was self-refutation. I was seeing things that I wasn't seeing before, and assumed my opponent was seeing them. I was wrong. There were opponents that I was beating with slow hardware that I could no longer beat with faster hardware, because I wasn't going for the same variations that were working before, because I was seeing their refutations. If took me years to catch up to that, and invent my own ways of avoiding self-refutation, which then cost me several games against stronger opposition.

But the most definitive advantage that I got was playing several games at once. A lot more than before, without decreasing my strength any. From the get-go, I could play 10 times as many games as when I was on my old computer, at the same strength, though I always preferred to play less games with more strength.

But as I told Paul, at some point I reached some kind of plateau, or, diminishing returns, so that means if I got a computer twice as fast as this one, I'd not play noticeably stronger, those 27 positions I analyzed the other day would have been the same. Though it would allow me to play twice the games at my strength, or to play twice as fast against you, a bigger breakthrough happens with engines with better evaluations or new analysis methods I come up with that are effective, though after a lot of polishing it's not easy, as I just focus in coming with the best move by needing to analyze as few positions as possible, with as few time as possible.

>I'm still calculating with ~1/3 pawn advantage (with uptick), was just surprised that you moved Ne2 before Qh4 as i would have moved Nc5 against any other move anyway.


Assuming we weren't allowed to follow mainline (which is the only case that matters - either the mainline is not the mainline and you have a better move up your sleeve, or there's a better move from my side I'm missing), Ne2 was clearly better. Nowhere in my analysis do I have 2 moves scoring the same, even if they transpose.

>Btw., as i have written above of the differences of 14...Re8 and 14...a5, we can now see that your (pretty forced) Kb1 in the end gave me the Nc5-tempo over 14...Re8 15. Nd4 a5 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Na6 Qh4 Nc5 ...


I think you were missing a critical deviation from black on there, because I think White was forced eventually to play Kb1 no matter what, or be worse than I am. This just makes more interesting our rematch with colors reversed: "The Revenge Of The Black Side" - unless you do end beating me, which would make everything moot :wink:

Anyway, fail high still unresolved, currently losing by 1/7 of a pawn, and everything looking solid. Have you seen any variation where you are beating me by 2/3 of a pawn? Assuming I play badly? I haven't seen any.

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Qh4 d5 9. O-O-O c6 10. Rhe1 Be6 11. Bd3 Kd7 12. Bd2 Bd6 13. Qa4 a5 14. Kb1 Re8 15. Nd4 Na6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bg6 Re7 18. Ne2 Nc5 19. Qh4 Kc7 20. f4!

r2q4/1pk1r1p1/2pbpnBp/p1np4/5P1Q/8/PPPBN1PP/1K1RR3 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-27 20:15

> 20. f4!


Would be interesting what move you expect here - especially given the "!"-mark.
I briefly have gone over it last weekend and have just seen that there are plenty
of moves (maybe a dozen) to choice from, therefore i can't ponder here and
will have to re-analyze this weekend, therefore this will take several days to resolve.

> Anyway, fail high still unresolved, currently losing by 1/7 of a pawn, and
> everything looking solid. Have you seen any variation where you are beating
> me by 2/3 of a pawn? Assuming I play badly? I haven't seen any.


Honestly, i reread this paragraph three times and still don't understand?!
You rate the position -1/7 (-0.14) and ask me whether i rate it -2/3 (-0.67)
(instead of the -1/3 (-0.33) i have given) when i insert a few bad moves for you? :lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2014-08-28 01:31
The ! is just there, meaning that after this move, White could gain the edge again if Black plays carelessly, I think it's the first time something like this happens.

>Honestly, i reread this paragraph three times and still don't understand?!
>You rate the position -1/7 (-0.14) and ask me whether i rate it -2/3 (-0.67)
>(instead of the -1/3 (-0.33) i have given) when i insert a few bad moves for you? :lol:


Yes, having a 1/3 means you have seen lines that you can extend and increase that advantage to, say, 1/2 of a pawn, then 2/3 of a pawn, etc. you have an advantage that keeps on raising, so you know it's 1/3 or more, but 1/3 is the minimum you have.

Because, I haven't seen any variations where black can increase its edge like that. That is, white could play careless (as long as it avoids transpositions to hell) and black still couldn't increase that edge.

That is, once I extend the variations I equalize to 0, eventually, even if black keeps trying different moves, so that might explain our differences in evaluation. From here the eval is higher than -1/7, but lower than -1/4, at the point of the unresolved fail high. If you have seen lines where you increase your edge beyond those points then it means I'm missing something critical.

In other words, I value the position from minimum -1/7 bad, maximum -1/4 bad. What is your "maximum good"? And does it pass -2/3?
Parent - By Antares (****) [de] Date 2014-08-28 06:06

> The ! is just there,


:lol:

> meaning that after this move, White could gain the edge again if Black plays carelessly, I think it's the first time something like this happens. [...] That is, once I extend the variations I equalize to 0, eventually, even if black keeps trying different moves, so that might explain our differences in evaluation. From here the eval is higher than -1/7, but lower than -1/4, at the point of the unresolved fail high. [...] In other words, I value the position from minimum -1/7 bad, maximum -1/4 bad. What is your "maximum good"? And does it pass -2/3?


Ok, now i understand better... my maximum score was -1/3 (i don't care about minimums) and of course you will get an updated one with my move! :grin::lol::smile:
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs. Antares 0-1
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