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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / World Cup 2007 goes to ... : Gata Kamsky!!
- - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-17 20:41
Okay, this is a Rybka forum, but I´m a little bit confused! So many Americans here in this forum, but no word about this great win. I analyzed (okay, what I call analyzing :-() all his games with Rybka and his play was great in the critical phases (above all his black winning game against Swidler).
Today I read his interview in Khanty-Mansiysk: http://www.ugra-chess.ru/eng/interv_34_e.htm
I love this remark of Gata in the interview: Well, the most important thing is to prepare good openings (laughs). And then I can just play chess.
And when he can just play chess, he is great!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 21:05
Well, of course he's not home grown...

Anyway, his play is generally much higher quality than his openings, so when he can get out of the openings in reasonable positions he generally does very well.

Unfortunately, its hard for me to make any sense of what FIDE has done here. I can't understand why he just doesn't face Anand in a WC match.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-17 22:02
Okay, FIDE decisions are baroque. They will have tradition and figthing spirit, so I can follow a little bit their decisions. Kramnik is sacrosanct! You have to beat him in a match (not tournament) to become FIDE world champion. Now we have two matches: Topalov vs. Kamsky and Kramnik vs. Anand. I don´t like the pairings so much! Topalov vs. Anand and Kramnik vs. Kamsky would be much more interesting for me. But so I think we will see Topalov vs. Kramnik again and all this bullshit about toilet-gate and chip-in-brain in the media. But chess isn´t a request programme. Let us see!
PS: Everyone is welcome but Kramnik!
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-17 22:18
Unfortunately, its hard for me to make any sense of what FIDE has done here. <Alan>

Weren't Kamsky and Shirov eliminated by Gelfand and Aronian? Oops, that was during the previous FIDE Random Challenger Generator process.

You have to beat [Kramnik] in a match (not tournament) to become FIDE world champion.  <Roland>

Huh? If there is one thing in this mess that is hard to dispute, it is that Anand is (currently) the "FIDE world champion" (at least at classical chess - FIDE puts the "World Champion" label on many things, such as the Under 8 Boys and Under 8 Girls).
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 22:36
In the current chess world, the label "FIDE" attached to anything like world champion doesn't give it a claim to legitimacy in people's minds.  Instead, it is actually a warning flag, that the title may be nothing more than a sheet of paper and that it might not have been fairly won in fair conditions!  This will remain true until FIDE as it currently stands is either dissolved and reformed or if the thugs (e.g. Ilyumzhinov, Azmaiparashvili, Campomanes, and Makropoulos) who currently run things are thrown in jail.  I mean, what kinds of goons do stuff like this?  And that's just a warm-up!
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 22:34 Edited 2007-12-18 22:41
Here!Here! I've been publishing that along! It's about time someone else spoke up and seconded that motion. But, it's all table talk because the only GM that I am aware of that is willing to spit in Kirsan Ilyumzhinov face are far and few between.

sidserious-
Parent - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-18 22:53
the title may be nothing more than a sheet of paper

Paper champions are nothing new! Indeed, 2007 is the 100th anniversary of Tarrasch being acclaimed "World Tournament Champion" (Turnierweltmeister) at Ostende [he first suggested this nomenclature at Hastings 1895], leading (finally) to his match against Lasker the next year. [Lasker actually agreed to a match in 1903, but Tarrasch injured himself while skating, and Lasker refused a postponement].
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-17 23:11
You are right and you know it. But you are not totally (:-)) right. Anand was the first Fide WC who knows the time and the opponent for rematch, when he becomes WC. So he is "only" interim WC. And Kramnik knows it before the Mexican tournament. Maybe we will see further surprises after small talk between Kirsan and Wladimir. Russia is a great nation!!
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-18 00:12
So he is "only" interim WC

Historically, in 1894 Lasker was thought to be same (his major accomplishment was to beat an old Steinitz). In fact, Steinitz tried to claim the title back on forfeit when Lasker took too long to grant a rematch (which he won resoundingly). Then Lasker retired for a decade...

Maybe we will see further surprises

History teaches that surprises are more likely than not, at least with chess world championships.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-18 00:30
Lasker vs. Steinitz isn´t a good example for our chat, because this isn´t an FIDE issue. FIDE comes later (1924).
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-18 01:04
Lasker vs. Steinitz isn´t a good example

It was just a historical example, to show that these disputes are ancient. I would say that the last decade of chess politics is (sadly) not exactly out of the ordinary.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 23:08
lasker-steinz is an excellent example of what happens in chess.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-19 15:36
New informations about Anand vs Kramnik World Championship Match 2008 you can see here: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4334
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 16:33
Thanks for the notice on this.

I don't like the idea of a tiebreak being used to decide the world champion.  Anand is the undisputed world champion.  Kramnik should have to beat him in a classical match in order to change this, not simply draw his way through and then rely on luck.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 19:28
I like tiebreaks. They mean that to be world champion I don't need to be the best player on earth, I only need to be as good as him and then rely on luck.

My opinion will change once I become the chess champion, obviously ;)
Parent - - By Nick (*****) Date 2007-12-17 21:08
I for one am delighted, I wish Gata a lot of luck against Topa.  About the Kamsky win over Shirov, at http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4327 GM Dorian Rogozenko said :

> "The pawn c2 is under attack, but... 9.0-0. This is the real novelty"


But I found this ...

[Event "3m + 2s, rated"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.03.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "BiG DoG, Fritz 8"]
[Black "calimero, Deep Fritz 7"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B30"]
[WhiteElo "2544"]
[BlackElo "2578"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2003.??.??"]
[EventType "blitz"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 e5 4. Bc4 Be7 5. d3 d6 6. Nd2 Bg5 7. Qh5 Nh6 8. h3
Nd4 9. O-O Nxc2 10. Bb5+ Kf8 11. Nf3 Bxc1 12. Raxc1 Nd4 13. Nxd4 exd4 14. Nd5
Be6 15. Bc4 Rb8 16. b4 b5 17. Bb3 Rc8 18. Nf4 Bxb3 19. axb3 Qe7 20. Nd5 Qe6 21.
Ra1 Ng8 22. Rxa7 Nf6 23. Nxf6 Qxf6 24. Rfa1 g6 25. Qh6+ Kg8 26. R1a6 cxb4 27.
Rd7 Qg7 28. Qf4 g5 29. Qxd6 h6 30. Raa7 Rf8 31. e5 g4 32. e6 gxh3 33. g3 h2+
34. Kxh2 Kh7 35. Rxf7 Rxf7 36. Rxf7 1-0
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 16:18
Yes, I think also that the line with 10.Bb5 that Fritz played is worthy of mention in the analysis.

Anyway, I think that while all GMs analyze with computers, most GMs (mistakenly) ignore games played by computers when doing opening preparation.  However, it's certainly possible that Kamsky came up with whatever deviltry he had planned depending upon Shirov's response to 9.0-0 based on seeing this game.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 15:55 Edited 2007-12-22 11:36
In Mainz he also commented on one of Rybka's games, on the photo (by Harald Fietz) you can see Kamsky, Vas and me (I'm the guy in the red shirt on the left)

So I'm happy that he won, I would have been also happy if it would have been Aronian or Shirov, but Kamsky is for sure a good candidate to fight for the world championship.
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-18 22:40
Les Nordiques?!?! When I spent a February in Montréal a few years back, not once did I see that logo (of course, their alternative logo, the Québécois fleur-de-lis, was everywhere). Guess it's more popular in Mainz. :)
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 10:01
Aha, I didn't know what the logo on Vas' shirt stand for :)
In Germany ice hockey is not that popular...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 16:38
Ice hockey is a thrilling sport with lots of unscripted violence. I am always surprised that it is not much more popular around the world.

Alan
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 18:11
well, for violence we have boxing. In Germany soccer is the most popular sport, but it's difficult to say which sport is the next popular after soccer...
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-19 20:53
well, for violence we have boxing.

Even chessboxing - almost like a Rustamstraum. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing and http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=chessboxing

Ice hockey is a thrilling sport with lots of unscripted violence.

In the Czech Republic, the fans often abuse the players with beer cans. Strangely, when I was in Canada, curling was of more import (the NHL was on strike).
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 21:09
In the Czech Republic, the fans often abuse the players with beer cans.

This is as it should be! In the US there was an incident many years ago when a player went up into the stands and beat a spectator with his own shoe! Very entertaining!

Alan
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 21:26
I have to admit that this is a kind of brutality that is quite amusing to watch :)
i remember I played an ice hockey computer game some time ago and the best thing were the boxing sequences ;)
Parent - - By Luckybaer (**) Date 2007-12-24 05:48
It is pretty big in Sweeden, Finland, Russia, Czech Republic, Canada, etc.  There are even professional leagues in Great Britain, Germany, and Switzerland.  In fact, I heard that there is some professional Asian hockey league!  I'm not sure if the St. Louis Blues' columnist was joking, but I think he said former NHL turtling pest Tyson Nash was in that league.

Also of note, in last year's NHL draft, the Blues picked a skater from Denmark (!) with their first pick!

But you are absolutely right - it doesn't have the mass appeal of Soccer, or even Basketball, for that matter.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-24 06:37
If you're old enough, you might remember the Summit Series of 1972 when The Soviet Red Army team came to play against the Flyers in Philadelphia. That was hockey at its best. The Red Army team had better technical skills but they weren't prepared for the physical game that the Flyers had used to win the last two Stanley Cups.

Alan
Parent - - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-24 06:55
That was hockey at its best ... but they weren't prepared for the physical game that the Flyers had used to win the last two Stanley Cups.

The Flyers moniker - "The Broad Street Bullies" - is perhaps not as evocative as (say) "The Purple People Eaters", but is still quite good. (They won the Cup in 74 and 75 [including the Fog Game] - Summit was 76).
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-24 07:08
Well, the Summit Series was against an all Canada team in 1972, but you're right that the Super Series, which I was actually referring too, was in 1976.

Alan
Parent - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-24 07:39
the Summit Series was against an all Canada team in 1972

Yeah, but that was quite tame :) ...there was only the guy with his tongue cut open (in a warm-up against Sweden no less), Mikhailov's skate weaponry, a stick assault  against the referee (though he held back from hitting him at the last minute), and a crowd riot with the Soviet police when the goal light didn't initially go on. [Oh yes, and the best Soviet player had his ankle deliberately fractured by the principal BSB himself].
Parent - - By saxon (**) Date 2007-12-19 21:05
Mainz he also commented on one of Rybka's games, on the photo you can see Kamsky, Vas and me (I'm the guy in the red shirt on the left)


Oh,I didn't know he is interested in computer chess.
Did he say something   about the games played then that you have recollection of?
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-19 21:22
It were just verbal comments (So there are no commented games for download), I don't remember the game number but it was an endgame against shredder where Rybka hat the bishop pair but was a pawn down (I'm not 100% sure) which ended in a draw.
The games should be somewhere on the tournament website of the chess classic (I'm too lazy to search for them now) :)
Parent - - By gmnotyet (*) Date 2007-12-18 22:15
Gata simply does -not- lose if gets a decent position out of the opening.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 22:29
Well, he did in 1996 against Karpov, but this isn't 1996 anymore :-).
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 22:45
its 11 years later, where were you 11 years ago. i believe kamsky can now perform.he appreciates computers and it was good to see him with the boys. ie felix vas ect. i have know doubt in my own mind that in any future challenge for the world championship that he is involved in rybka,ie vas will also be be involved supposedly indirectly.
Parent - - By Nick (*****) Date 2007-12-18 23:54 Edited 2007-12-18 23:59
Without wishing to offend Vas or Larry, Gata (ICC handle "Talion") was the only player that managed to beat Rybka 2.2n2 (with anti-human book) on a 3ghz core 2 quad at time control 3+1.   I recall Majd saying that Rybka Winfinder would have spotted the king attack in the time available though:

[Event "ICS rated blitz match"]
[Site "chessclub.com"]
[Date "2007.01.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Talion"]
[Black "BigMomma"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "3189"]
[BlackElo "3862"]
[PlyCount "153"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. f4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. d3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Bd6 6. g3 Nge7 7. Bg2 O-O 8. O-O
f6 9. Re1 Qb6 10. Kh1 Bd7 11. b3 Ng6 12. Bb2 Rae8 13. Nf1 d4 14. a4 Na5 15. Bc1
e5 16. f5 Nh8 17. g4 Nf7 18. Ng3 Be7 19. Bd2 Nc6 20. Rg1 Rc8 21. h4 h6 22. Bh3
Qd8 23. Rg2 Nb4 24. Nh5 Rc6 25. Qc1 Be8 26. Qb2 Qc7 27. Rag1 Ra6 28. Qc1 Bd8
29. g5 fxg5 30. Nxg7 Kxg7 31. hxg5 Kh8 32. g6 Ng5 33. Nxg5 hxg5 34. Bxg5 Kg8
35. Rg4 Bf6 36. Bxf6 Rfxf6 37. Rh4 Qg7 38. Rh7 Rad6 39. Rxg7+ Kxg7 40. Bg4 Nc6
41. Rg2 Bxg6 42. fxg6 Rf4 43. Bf5 Rh4+ 44. Rh2 Rxh2+ 45. Kxh2 Rd8 46. Qg5 Rh8+
47. Kg3 Rh6 48. Kf2 Rh2+ 49. Kg1 Rh6 50. Kf1 a6 51. a5 c4 52. bxc4 Rh8 53. Bd7
Rf8+ 54. Ke2 Rf6 55. Bxc6 Rxc6 56. Qxe5+ Kxg6 57. Qxd4 Kg5 58. Qd7 Rg6 59. Qxb7
Kh6 60. c5 Rg2+ 61. Kd1 Rg1+ 62. Kd2 Rg2+ 63. Kc3 Rg5 64. c6 Kh5 65. c7 Rc5+
66. Kd2 Kh4 67. c8=Q Rxc8 68. Qxc8 Kg5 69. Qxa6 Kg4 70. Qb7 Kf3 71. a6 Kf4 72.
a7 Ke5 73. a8=Q Kf6 74. Qh8+ Kg5 75. Qbg7+ Kf4 76. Qh4+ Kf3 77. Qhg3# 1-0

I found Gata to be one of the most friendly Super-GMs .. he would usually comment on the game whilst playing it, which was fascinating to see.

Mind you, he did have a few goes ..
Parent - - By Marc Lacrosse (**) Date 2007-12-19 11:42

>> Without wishing to offend Vas or Larry, Gata (ICC handle "Talion") was the only player that managed to beat Rybka 2.2n2 (with anti-human book) on a 3ghz core 2 quad at time control 3+1. 


Yes he is a very fine player and a nice person alltogether.

In my own recordings ( http://users.skynet.be/mlcc/chessbazaar/gmvscompsicc2006.html ) he had a 5.5% result against top computer accounts on ICC in 2006.

At blitz play computers are really on another planet by now ...

Marc
Parent - - By Nick (*****) Date 2007-12-20 11:52
The games you collected are a nice resource Marc, I noticed you stopped in Jan of this year, did the ICC not let you carry on collecting (I sent their chief admin an email supporting you) or did you just get bored?
Parent - - By Marc Lacrosse (**) Date 2007-12-22 11:24
ICC administrators decided not to let me continue.
At first time they argued that I had stolen copyrighted content and threatened to ban me and to go for a lawsuit (not less!).
I replied that I just collected pure games without any added content, using "normal" ICC commands, and they had to agree that pure games are not copyrightable.
I tried to explain that IMHO publishing their games could act as a good publicity for ICC, that all these games were like a lost treasury.
They more or less agreed but told me that they were in the process of deciding how and when they would publish their games themselves.
Inbetween they strongly suggested I should stop publishing any new game unless I wished to see my account closed (and according to ICC rules they are allowed to close any account even when no "fault" has been committed)
So I had no choice : I stopped.
This occured in january 2007.
I had contacts with one of the administrators on this topic a few weeks later but he just answered that they were still deliberating.
No news after that.
So I suppose that they decided not to publish anything as formerly ...

A real pity.

Marc
Parent - By Nick (*****) Date 2007-12-23 12:18
A shame, and you were doing a lot of work to get these games, work that ICC should have found useful to them, and that avoided them the cost of doing it themselves.  Oh well, at least us members can use the ICC online db to get *some* of the games, it's just a pain.

Best regards!
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-12-22 19:54
Topalov will be heavy oponent for Kamsky.
Rgds
Hetman
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-22 21:38
it would be a great match.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / World Cup 2007 goes to ... : Gata Kamsky!!

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