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Poll Who will win Benjamin-Rybka match at draw and White odds for each game? (Closed)
Benjamin by 8-0 0 0%
Benjamin by 7-1 1 2%
Benjamin by 6-2 6 10%
Benjamin by 5-3 13 22%
Tie Match 4-4 6 10%
Rybka by 5-3 15 25%
Rybka by 6-2 10 17%
Rybka by 7-1 5 8%
Rybka by 8-0 3 5%
- - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-17 16:57 Edited 2007-12-26 05:08
     A draw plus White odds match with Grandmaster Joel Benjamin has been scheduled for Jan. 3 thru 6 to be played here in Potomac, MD with internet broadcast. It is an 8 game match at the FIDE time limit of 90' plus 30" increment (or if Joel prefers the roughly equivalent one hour plus one minute increment). Joel gets White in every game and every draw is scored as a win for him. He will receive $1500 basic fee plus $200 per point plus $500 bonus if he wins the match. Rybka will run on my quad with our latest private version, and whatever opening book I select. Morning rounds at 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time, evening round times TBA. Other rules as in our previous matches. GM Benjamin is a three time US Champion and was the chess advisor for "Deep Blue".
     Rather than make a forecast, Joel made the following statement for us:

"During the last match, Larry wondered if Rybka could one day become so strong that no one in the world could even get a draw against her with the white pieces.  That makes this proposition quite interesting.  It is a way to test Rybka's progress on the way towards total domination.

The preparation may be quite important.  Larry will want to avoid letting Rybka play into variations which are too drawish.  I will have to decide if it will be worth it to risk a little to play from a position of strength, or go for an all-out grovel.

I am also curious to see how well Rybka will make decisions to unbalance the game if it is headed towards an easily drawable game for me."


    
Parent - - By gala.martin (**) Date 2007-12-17 17:17
Can we know:
-what opening book will you use. If it is a state-of-art book, possibly with anti-human or anti-draw enhancements, I think J.B. does not have many chances.
-what hardware will you use, namely what quad-core processor.

Thanks
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 17:39
I think Benjamin is odds-on favorite in this one.  What GM can't force a draw with white?  The whole strategic theme of this match will center on black avoiding drawish lines and gradually outcalculating Benjamin in the middle-game.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 17:52
Yes, I think in this match the Rybka team has gone a bridge too far...

Alan
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-17 19:32
Veto, it´s not too far. We have to see the borderline. Rybka has won all his handicap matches in the past. Now humans strike back. If not, human vs. engine matches are obsolete in the future. No more handicaps!! There will be some rumor in the scene after a Benjamin defeat and new offers by GMs (and Larry has a lot to do with his no-draw-opening book), but this are rearguard actions.
I predict a 6-2 win for Joel (with one real win)!
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-12-24 14:05
I predicted 7-1 for rybka
Rybka is clear favourite to win the match.

Humans may strike back but benjamin is clearly not the right human to do it and the conditions of 2 games per day also are not conditions that favour the human.

I disagree that if benjamin lose
human vs. engine matches are obsolete in the future.

We have no basis to think that Benjamin is the best human against machines.
The opposite
Benjamin already lost against rybka and it is better to see a GM that did not lose against rybka in the match.

I would like to see if rybka can win against all the GM's with better rating than benjamin with black before having the confidence that humans have no chance.

Uri
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-24 17:19
I think that the human that may beat Rybka is way too expensive.
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2007-12-25 08:38
Do you think that Rybka can really beat Joel by 7-1?

Remember that if Benjamin achieve only a draw, it will be as achieving a victory.

I really doubt that Rybka can do this if Benjamin only play for a draw. It will be a very interesting match of course.

Regards,
Gaмßito
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-12-25 13:36
We are going to see.

Getting a draw is not easy.
Remember that  there were some 6:0 results in human matches between GM's in the history of chess.
 
Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 17:57
True, but it is unlikely, or at least unreasonable to believe, that the white player in these matches ever had the goal of obtaining a draw rather than a win.

Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-12-25 18:16
Based on my knowledge at least the russian grandmaster  Mark Taimanov wanted a draw in the last games but
Bobby Fischer did not want.

Taimanov was punished for losing 6-0 and I read that people told him after the match that he should get grandmaster draws in the last games when it was obvious that it is impossible to save the match and the reply was that Bobby Fischer did not want a draw.

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 18:35
OK, this is a reasonable counterexample. When the match is effectively over (in this case when one player had more than 3 points) there might be other considerations which might motivate the losing player to seek a draw with white.

I think today they probably wouldn't continue the match after one player had already won. Of course in the Rybka-JB match, JB will get money for each draw so there is a valid reason to play all the games.

Alan
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 19:01
bobby hated the russians so much at this time that he would never have agreed to draws,actually mark taimanov and his wife were concert pianists and much more interested in music than chess.what annoyed me at the time was the way he destroyed larsen. upon reflection however larsen ego was as big as fischers.i think it was sousse when larsen insisted on going on first board and fischer did not argue.he certainly paid the price later.fischer never forgot a single thing like this.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2007-12-25 20:52 Edited 2007-12-25 20:55

> i think it was sousse when larsen insisted on going on first board


It was in the USSR vs. Rest of the world in Belgrade 1970.

>mark taimanov and his wife were concert pianists and much more interested in music than chess.


You can listen to them playing here (samples) Lyubov Bruk and Mark Taimanov or just buy the discs :)
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 20:56
thanks, i could not be bothered to look it up.but i knew i was correct.thanks again for confirming i was right.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 20:59
i have two recordings of mark& his wife,but not the one you have given me. he was a nice guy.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 21:13
i cannot get the samples to play for me, but i can only take so much of arnesky
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-26 03:33
fischer never forgot a single thing like this.
When I think about Fisher, I always remember Michael Kohlhaas. It´s a real tragedy. No way out!
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-12-28 16:06
Hi,

I am not sure if RJ Fischer hated Russians. Bronstein, Spassky and Tal were his friends.
The Soviet Chess Union has hated Fischer, that is true.

Fischer was not playing chess for the draw and there are no 'GM draws' in his careera, practicly. His games are full of life.
I do not think he was hating any chessplayer.

The fact of the 1st board challenge between Fischer and Larsen was in Belgrad in the match SU - World.
Sousse it was the Interzonal tournament and there were no 1st board problem.

It is good to know the facts.

Rgds
Hetman
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-28 16:32
yes i know i made an error here, sousse was the tournament where all fischers scores were annulled.it was curacao in 1962 where he accused the russians  of cheating in a famous article in aug 1962 edition of sports illustrated, forcing FIDE to change the fomat to  a knockout series of games.
Parent - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-12-28 17:23
It is other fact.

Russian GM Y. Awerbach has acknowledged Fischer suspicions many years later in his interview.

There were some books where it was written i.e.: 'Russians vs Fischer', 'My great predecesors IV'.
The media used by SUCF to defence the WC title are more similar to the war then to the sport. :-(
Team of many top GM to analyse Fischer games and find weak points, Team of psychologist to analyse his behaviour and find the way to disturb his concetration., Laboratory to prepare opening novelties...

Fischer was able to overcome that !

Then similar methods was used vs Korchnoi but he was in worser situation. His family was in SU.
Someone has told that chess are not dangerous... ;-) .

Rgds
Hetman
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2007-12-25 20:50

> I think today they probably wouldn't continue the match after one player had already won.


They didn't in those days either. These were 10 game matches. That's why they were stopped when the score was 6-0 in Fischer's favor.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-25 23:22
ok, thanks!

Alan
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-12-26 04:07
You want to see the rearguard actions? An 2550 player isn´t good enough and lost 7-1 against the engine, but an 2750 player (like Kamsky) will beat her? I´m not convinced. What´s the reason, if Kamsky loose in late 2008 against Rybka 3 on an 16-core machine? Not good enough? Sure, but what is the alternative? Kramnik in 2009 against Rybka 4 on 32-core machine? Now but never, I think! But let us see ...
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-12-26 05:29
I do not want to see kramnik against chess programs after he lost against fritz.

Note that I did not say that 2750 player is going to beat rybka in normal match but maybe he can draw most of the games with white.
I basically want to see players who never lost in matches against machines.

Players who lost in the past should not get an invitation to another match otherwise people can suspect that players lose on purpose in order to get another match.
It is the second time that a player who lost against rybka get invitation to another match and I do not like it.
I hope that it is the last time and the rybka team will have a rule not to invite player who lost to another match.

We already have
Ehlvest twice
Benjamin twice

Uri
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-12-26 06:36
In 2002, Smirin won a match against a computer team 5.0-3.0 without a loss:

http://www.chessbase.com/events/events.asp?pid=122

Maybe he would be a good candidate?

In the first round, he scored a win against Shredder which was very similar to a game Van Wely - Fritz(!), from the Dutch Championships where Fritz once participated.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1349969
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1472043
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-26 15:43
One reason for inviting both Ehlvest and Benjamin back for second matches is that they both showed good sportsmanship in various ways. Neither tried to blame defeat on external factors and both were helpful in terms of commenting on the games and (in Benjamin's case) playing extra quick/blitz games at various handicaps. Also, the number of 2600 level GMs who are willing to travel to Maryland and devote 4 days to a match for $1000 to $2000 is a small number. But most likely the next match will be with someone new.
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2007-12-29 05:11 Edited 2007-12-29 05:17
I think that some 'recent' GM's that have played against machines and has not lost are: Robert Huebner, Evgeny Bareev and Illya Smirin. Others as Adams,Kasparov,Kramnik,Anand,Gulko,J.Polgar,Ehlvest,Benjamin, all have lost. But anyway it is not to think that they will lose again and again. Much of this are in the good preparation and not so much in the level that they really have.
 
I also want to see strong GM's accepting this challenge against Rybka, but many of them are also afraid of this. A shame.  
Many of them play only for enormous wild quantities of money but at the same time they do not have enough preparation to defeat the machine. At the end they always finish losing. 

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2007-12-20 11:59
Maybe the Rybka team is too courageous.
But that's OK!
Also this result is interesting.

If we want to have an Idea of the programs strength it is good to see results showing winning and loosing Rybka-Engines, under different circumstances and ideally with different Opponents.
(OK, especially the last wish isn't easy to satisfy.)

Quapp
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 17:56

> I think Benjamin is odds-on favorite in this one.  What GM can't force a draw with white?  The whole strategic theme of this match will center on black avoiding drawish lines and gradually outcalculating Benjamin in the middle-game.


Yes, so to win the match, Rybka has to take a different approach to the game, and it may be a new approach never seen before.

So, either Rybka is committing suicide (if it plays like always), or this new approach is going to make draws the least possible outcome and increase Rybka's winning chances (if such approach exists.)
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-17 18:11
It's nice to see that opinion is divided on who is the favorite, that makes for an interesting match. I really don't know what to expect. I hope for a decisive Rybka victory (but I'm not predicting that) not so much because I'm on the Rybka team, but because it would demonstrate that chess is a rich game. If you are right that a GM can expect to draw with White against anyone, that implies that chess is a bit played-out if you know your openings cold. I'm hoping to show that this is not so, that chess is far from a draw death if either player chooses double-edged openings. We shall see.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 18:14

> I'm hoping to show that this is not so, that chess is far from a draw death if either player chooses double-edged openings.


Double-edges openings!

Maybe this is indeed the best approach to the game when you are the stronger player and you must win each game. My interest on this match has increased.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-17 22:27
That's what stronger players routinely do in Swiss system events where they must win every game against the weaker players to get a good prize.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 20:43
Yes, this is a really tough one to call--I keep going back and forth on who I think will win and also thinking it will be a draw.  I don't think that anyone will win by a score of 6-2 or better; I'm rooting for Rybka, so I'd like to see some very exciting openings :-).  I wonder whether it's all that good of an idea to tune for the best opening lines--if you do that, Joel may know which ones to expect.  Naturally, any exciting, off-beat ones will need to be clear of apparently easy ways to "forego" the excitement and take the game into a drawish position.  Since pretty much all openings have these sorts of lines, this will be difficult; hopefully Joel doesn't know them and won't figure them out :-).
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 20:50
I wonder if GM Benjamin will try playing father like games (assuming your latest incarnation of Rybka will allow it)? This might be a viable strategy for him, although it could potentially produce the dullest match of all times.

Alan
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 21:07
Pablo would say pawn blockade games the most brilliant spontaneous expressions of the human spirit, and other cosmically grandiose balderdash.  Such tactics would be an ugly way to win but really a draw is a draw whether it is done with blockaded pawns or threefold repetitions or insufficient material or whatever.  A GM should not be under any obligation to play beautifully in addition to playing well; the two concepts can be disaggregated.  Taking this concept of "chess dadaism" to its logical conclusion, chess that seeks to be the negation of beauty can be beautiful on its own terms so long as it is effective.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 21:27
We are in complete agreement that the GM should get his draws any way he can. But if he does play all father style games, the match will be less interesting than watching the grass grow and I will nominate it for the Book of Lists under the category Most Boring Chess Match of All Times.

Vas and Larry would of course be required to watch all the games (this would require the type of equipment displayed in "A Clockwork Orange"). Following the match, if Vas and Larry are still around, Anti-Father measures will immediately jump to the top of the priority list.

Alan
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 22:05
Funny (and I loved that movie).  Anti-Father measures have long been at the top of my priority list.  All regal-minded spewing of bovine balderdash must be quashed otherwise an inky cloud of chessic pollutants will choke off all intelligent discussion.  Larry, if you're reading this, by all means do not let Benjamin form impassable pawn blockades because if you do, and he succeeds, the imitative chimps on Playchess will take up the Father cult in a really big way and an insane number of pawn blockade games will suddenly break out like a bad case of poison ivy.  If you don't believe it you ought to check out the percentage of 1.h3 games played this year vs. previous years.  Madness!
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 22:41
I am in favor of seeing Father-like measures, and I hope that Rybka punishes them severely.
Parent - By BB (****) Date 2007-12-19 03:44
chess that seeks to be the negation of beauty

There is a Bird quote: "Place the contents of the chessbox in your hat, shake them vigorously, pour them on the board at the height of two feet, and you get the style of Steinitz." I think it was Rossolimo who published a Chess Life & Review manifesto about a 10-pt beauty system to replace win/loss/draw (check Pandolfini's Best-of volumes - I think that's where I saw it).
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-17 22:31
I think that the book will not allow the GM into such closed positions. So first, he has to get Rybka out of book, then start the blockade.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-17 22:31
We aim to do something to foil such a strategy. As for a dull match, basically if it is very dull it means that Joel wins, whereas if it is exciting it means that Rybka wins. So I guess most fans will root for Rybka, even if they would normally root for the human GM.
Parent - - By FWCC (***) Date 2007-12-29 00:59
Thank you Larry I hope we have a good and interesting match.What is this version 2.3.2e13 that is playing now at Paderborn will you use this version against Joel?By the way I am determined NOT to play at Playchess until I get a Quad that is why I have been absent(if anyone misses me hahah)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-29 01:16

> What is this version 2.3.2e13 that is playing now at Paderborn


My only guess is that it's actually a different way of saying "Rybka 2.4.5e" ;)
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-29 03:33
Thata is just our latest version. Almost every day we have a new version and a new version number/letter. The version for Joel will have a couple of tiny enhancements over this version plus some specific anti-draw features; nothing drastic but hopefully enough to avoid some draws. Part of this will be triggered by the contempt setting.
Parent - - By JohnL (***) Date 2007-12-18 18:10 Edited 2007-12-18 18:14
Well, if the 500+ points ELO advantage isn't enough to win more than 50% with black with maximum contempt then the game of chess is indeed in trouble....

Come on Rybka, the future of chess is on your shoulders (which are hopefully not too sloping :-) )
 
Anyhow, if Larry manages to create a decent opening book it would be a huge upset if Benjamin won this match.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2007-12-18 18:56

> if the 500+ points ELO advantage isn't enough to win more than 50% with black with maximum contempt then the game of chess is indeed in trouble....


It will also show if these 500 rating points are real.

And I think that the match will end with a decisive score, either Rybka destroys, or is destroyed.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2007-12-20 00:50
odds on, lay me money.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-12-20 11:57
I don't bet unless I know something the other guy doesn't know and I'm sure I will win.  I'm risk-averse.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-12-17 18:04
I will take some standard book (I haven't decided which one yet, and of course when I do decide I can't make the choice public), and try to select those lines that seem less likely to end in draws. I don't have a lot of time available for this due to some holiday plans, but I'll do my best in the available time. As for hardware, my quad has a 6800 processor running at 3.2 GHz (I can run it at 3.47 but it will occasionally terminate at that speed).
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