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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Who won the Zaitsev battle?
- - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-18 02:02
I remember that in Mexico, both Rybka and Zappa had humorously prepared the Zaitsev Ruy Lopez.

I also remember that Jeroen had it in his Rybka 3 book!?

I image that lots of battles must have taken place in this line. But when I look at my Playchess database (games mostly from last 1½ years or so), I don't see that many games, and I don't see any clear conclusions.

So, am I right in that the Zaitsev is not as popular as it once was? Did white finally get the upper hand?

I noticed that if Black plays the Berlin, and white plays 4.d3, play can well transpose into the Zaitsev (white saves a tempo Ba4-c2 in some lines while using two tempi d2-d3-d4).
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2013-09-18 07:35
Hi Dagh, IMO this is just a case of popularity. In recent top GM games you rarely see the Zaitsev being played. Perhaps at Playchess the winning chances are just too small. In any case, I don't think white got the upper hand, although I have no statistics to prove this :-). Nelson can probably help us out here.
Parent - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-18 22:33
Thanks!

It would be nice if we had the experts from Playchess discuss these things. What about an "opening analysis" sub-forum?
Parent - By Nick (*****) Date 2013-09-18 08:28
In that playchess book from Nelson (my "Nel" column) white appears to be doing quite well in Flohr-Zaitsev, ask the Oracle! (Nelson).

Another KK battlefield?

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1015287
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2013-09-18 08:33
If you are interested in recent theoretical developments in this, or any other opening, I recommend to look at highly rated games in the ICCF games database. Developments in this opening are still ongoing.
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-18 08:37
Is such a database online somewhere?
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2013-09-18 11:21
http://www.iccf.com/Message.aspx?message=454

You need to register with ICCF to gain access.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2013-09-18 11:59
Essential stuff.  I add the latest games every month.
Parent - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-18 22:33
Thanks!
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2013-09-18 12:17
Following Nick's link, the position after white's 17th move is fairly ambiguous.  You definitely need to get further into theory to draw any conclusions.

17...c4    37%  48% draws 46% freq
17...f5     36     36             38
17...g6    40     46               9
17...Nb6  45     46               5
+11 other rarely played, mostly bad moves

The 17...c4 line offers an interesting choice.  18.Ree3 has scored 68% with 45% draws and is played almost exclusively by engines.  (Humans prefer axb5 or Nd4, both of which are more drawish.)  I think we concluded in a correspondence game a couple of years ago that with ideal play it is probably a draw but nonetheless it offers a lot of pitfalls for black.  17...f5 gives black too many ways to swiftly drive the game toward a draw.
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-18 22:38
Yes, I think that was what confused me a bit just when I just looked at the scores. Obviously white is doing overall well, but in such a sharp line, sometimes it's just a matter of Black knowing the right ways, and then white has nothing left.

I guess what I am wondering is whether there is still some "unclear" lines left in the Zaitsev where analysis is not exhausted yet and white may have an edge, may not. A bit like the whole 6. be3 e5 and 8...h5 Najdorf, a zillion games are played in this line, but still you can't just say "this is how to draw as black" or "this is how to get edge as white", there are soooo many options.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2013-09-19 00:40
There are unclear lines everywhere except in those lines that are decided.  An exhaustive survey of the Zaitsev variations that haven't been decided would fill a book with very fine print.
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2013-09-19 08:02
The highlight of NIC Yearbook 100 is an article by Garry Kasparov, which on the cover is said to be "the final word on the Zaitsev Ruy Lopez." Kasparov himself, on the other hand, calls it "Painting the Ruy Lopez in New Colours."
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2013-09-19 21:44

> The 17...c4 line offers an interesting choice.  18.Ree3 has scored 68% with 45% draws and is played almost exclusively by engines.  (Humans prefer axb5 or Nd4, both of which are more drawish.)  I think we concluded in a correspondence game a couple of years ago that with ideal play it is probably a draw but nonetheless it offers a lot of pitfalls for black.  17...f5 gives black too many ways to swiftly drive the game toward a draw.


Once again your conclusions are top notch. Zaitsev, as long as black plays 17..c4, is almost dead draw. Anything else and white has very good chances, 17..f5 being probably the best among those. The game we played was IIRC our forum against Hamsters (or was it??), and it was heavy with great analysis, however we (white) never got above 0.00 (very frustrating).
- - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-23 22:33
there was a game I played in WBCCC 2011 just before I played Sebi in which I thought I had refuted a certain line in Zaitsev,cant find it now but I mentioned at the time in WBCCC 2011 thread,i have asked Dadi to put this thread back in forum,there was some big games played there.
Its the comments during the games which are important.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-24 21:16
Parent -/- By ralunger (**) [ph] Date 2011-06-06 01:51 Edited 2011-06-06 01:58 you're right Paul.  white indeed has a considerable advantage in this line. my evals were as high as 0.75 when I double checked this line but still unsure if this is enough to win due to opposite colored bishops.

This is clearly an improvement over the line I've chosen in our game and  I will gladly play another zaitzev on the white side with this very line. :smile:

Maybe this game puts the zaitsev in question as a reasonable defense since it doesn't give black any winning chances whatsoever (as shown in this game) and the best he could get is a draw after only defending a very difficult position.
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-24 21:22
So where is the game? :-)
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-24 21:39
Thanks, I got access denied, probably I need to register for the 2011 WBCCC forum or something.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-24 21:51
Does this help.

Parent - N/- By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2013-09-24 07:45 You can view the WBCCC archives by joining the WBCCC group: Options > Group > Select WBCCC [ ] Member and then click Change.
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2013-09-24 21:59
Thanks, that worked!
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-24 22:31
One game I am proud of is this Lopez against Smyslov variation against a very strong player.

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=27209
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-24 21:53
If above does not work,i will post game and various comments.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2013-09-25 06:36 Upvotes 1

> i will post game and various comments.


Would be very helpfull if you could post a pgn with comments.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) Date 2013-09-24 22:00
Game as played.

Game 166665. Finished
[WhiteTime "20 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes"]
[BlackTime "24 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 Bb7 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 Bf8 12.a4 h6 13.d5 Nb8 14.c4 bxc4 15.Nxc4 c6 16.dxc6 Bxc6 17.Be3 Bxe4 18.Bb6 Qd7 19.Rxe4 Nxe4 20.Qd5 Qc6 21.Ncxe5 Qxd5 22.Bxd5 dxe5 23.Bxa8 Nf6 24.Be3 Nbd7 25.Bb7 e4 26.Nh2 a5 27.Rd1 Nc5 28.Bc6 Rc8 29.Bb5 Nb3 30.Nf1 Bb4 31.Ng3 Kh7 32.Bf4 Rc5 33.h4 g6 34.Nf1 g5 35.hxg5 hxg5 36.Be3 Rc2 37.Bxg5 Kg6 38.Bf4 Nc5 39.b3 Nxb3 40.Ne3 Rc8 41.Nc4 Rc5 42.Rb1 Rf5 43.Be3 Nc5 44.Bc6 Rh5 45.Bd4 Ne6 46.Bxf6 Kxf6 47.Bxe4 Rh4 48.Bd3 Nc5 49.Bf1 Nxa4 50.Ra1 Nc5 51.Nxa5 Ne4 52.Nb3"]
Result: Draw
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Who won the Zaitsev battle?

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