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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Russian training method could be duplicated too
- - By Electro Date 2013-09-14 11:43
Recently in the last years because of computers the methods has dramatically changed
Specially on GGMM
Its based in the teory of managing advantages,it said basicaly the main different between players is the amount of advantage they could handle succesfully securely and safetly to the next steap of advantage,a novice will need a ( 7.00) or a lot more{standard Houdini2.0/2012year } a Houdini2.0 may could need a 0.35-0.40 to almost surely win against himself and a disadvantage-0.10 to be sure will not loose a game against other strong UCI,Anand may need maybe 0.90 or a bit less to manage ,besides they could handle 1.00 at some stages,1.30 it the secure advantage they could handle at 2800 club(2012standard) none of then could handle more than 0.60, and 0.70. Now imagine others levels,a 2600 GM could handle, a 2500 etc (,10 decimals is too much margin and its just expressed as example,it need a lot more complicated explanation but this is the basis)This is a fact .they work in such position and only such positions are handled in a special soft developed by an ukrainian developer,a player select his main opennings lines,a set of final positions he could reasonably reach in his opennings during real tournament games(all his set of opennings of an specific one),then a computer create a database UCI games based of such positions playng thousand of games vs another UCIs simulating a human model,from that database is determined the overal percent of well known standard typical :"positions and situations" wich is mainly divided in queen presence and without queen(queens dramatically influence the tactic and strategies in the chessgames)later there is a well clasic middle game center paw,derivatives in another centers..oposite castle, etc every typical position derivates and related with another and create a red net of 60 or even more,the situatiojs are like" the attack that stoped". Another:"pawn down compensated"  ," "a draw no one could stop" etc a situations are like a poem to be remembered,a positions are clear like a math table..this is done to organise the knowledge the chess players is acumulating into categories( its how our brain works,unconsciency remembering set of thousand typical positions and situations present in daily chessgames,the oposite is chess960 fisher of composing problems,beside the fact it is also chess under chess rules,it wouldnt help as a trainning knowledge background),so the new adquired knowledge are always connected and related and basically 99%they are learning from computers in how they are managing to materialise such advantages,the time cicles administrated carefully watching the percent  of such position in the database( for a computer an almost equal endgame is not viewed as a goal,instead its a fault in materialising advantages in the middlegames,do not administrating 30% of the training time to endgames that only represent 8% of overal games and so on)
They never analise human games( only for practical purpose,oppenings and so on)
All of this is derivated from openinngs they use to play
The goal is to go deep in uunderstanding the complexity,no going wide tryng to achieve many positions
They do not view tactic trainning as a set of well known position that contain an   almost forced sure win or combination to win as in real games such rich positions are rare ,and disorientating the player to" fish off" a force combination in his real games,far from reality
Tactic and strategie are view differently as such concepts are united
Any position that has more less 3  alternatives with more less 0.08 in difference between then is considered an strategic position,were no sure hit is near and chosing amounst then is hard only apealing to strategic fundaments(contrary to the general view that strategic moves are always in quite waters)
A tactic position only differ in 0.25 or more difference needed
So basically a normal game is a set of short tactic solutions( as humans we can only see arrays of short tactic solutions in chess)were strategic solutions are "the tactic difficoult ones" to clarified

When such a positions are set the play two games vs the main program(then back i remember rybka2.3  was the top) one of 25minuts and another of 35minuts( they never play fast games ,and paradojically never classic 2hours games because there is to much time the mind is idle and resulting in an unproductive training session ) as long as they are playng tryng to materialise such exact amount of advantage given,the computer is playng 6 different games in the background from the same position but with different programs lowering in level,(to later show how the advantage could have been materialised from different perspectives under different situation vs different levels of resistance
Every session is very emotional intense lived( as chess was ,is ,and will be a challenge,no a nursing course)and emotions push forward the mind and the memory and the asociation and the analisis,and the knowledge saved into the brain is a long lasting one
Later such questions are always a rule:
What was the commun point in all these different solutions?, the different amount all this almost similar positions?
Looking for the commun in the different and the particulary different in the almost commun,its apply to everything he saw in this day
Later such questions are for others games and other days ,the comp just ask,and its not comparing results,its just an open task the player should do,the player is always flooded by tasks as long as possible,but keeping the motivated tone of challenge as long as it could

Such sessions are later expanded in a general knowledge background,and everyting that passed in the screen pc is saved ,all his games,and all the moves that overpassed the others moves in 0.30 are also saved( later such key moves are showed and showed ,comfronted with new knowledge and compared even moonths and years later)

The trainings sessions are in cicles,and there is a week were the player is analising nothing,or playng a single game,he just seat back and the entire week he is remembering the solutions he used to play(authomaticaly showed by the computer) ,the responses,the games,the days,it happened the comparision with now days,it creates a sensation of special pleasure while remembering,and apparently the mind is idle,but is really in such momemts when the training is getting high efects,and then all back to the same
They never play vs computers from the start,since they couldnt handle an advantage needed to trainning and barely they could reach a 0.40 or 0.50 and hold it for some time
So basically is it,maybe it could be reached a level of 0.80 within some generations,perhaps 25years who knows,but 0.60 are far away from humans and equall to rybka or houdini: mission impossible
its based on Davidov teory books of pedagpgical science and psicology of soviet times,the developers are all ukrainians,
The soft is entirely built in russian,it has many other features,like a transposition option to turn black pieces into whites  instantly to evoid the "Semeon Furman effect :world champion with white",turn the up-down entirely with all comments and turn the same pieces but in different squares
Soviet masters improved very well very fast because theyused a trick the burocracy system allowed them to do,every master was allowed to have an income salary fixed and assigned to schools institues,universities,everywere is was possible to set a teacher job,they dreammed with national championships qualifications,this allowed them to a foreing treap to West Europe countries and a big apartment,so they decided to train thenself instead of training someone else ,but the process was mutual benefical, their trainning was like that:day and night constantly they organased a handicap games vs students,  a master seatting in a connor playing a game with a serious as a tournament game,,students in another connor consulting and moving the pieces tryng to defeat him,the result : playing vs a rybka4 since 1950'
Just as simple as that,petrossian keep his power,beliavsky and many other that "copied that way of life"soviet system allowed to do,look at capablanca in 1938 his 4 games vs few 4 chessclub players in consultations from havana,and two from santiago de cuba provinces,A11,a12,a13 ,they played like a deep junior,capablanca could only survive hardly just in one game with draw,loosing the others

Could rybka author develop somthing similar or better in english?
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 00:43
There is no excuse for how badly this is written. I could write more clearly in Hungarian and I know nothing of the language.

I cleaned it up for other people to read with the help of this page since it is practically illegible and has no paragraphs. I'm sure I changed the meaning a bit in places and I also left like half it out, but oh well, better than TL;DR right?

In recent times the methods of computer chess analysis have changed dramatically, especially at the GM level.

A player's strength can be described by the amount of advantage they can successfully convert to the next level of advantage. A novice might need a +7.00 whereas Houdini might only need a +0.40 to win against itself. Ukrainian masters work with positions that are based on what evaluation number they can handle safely with a special software program.

A player selects his opening lines and then a database is created by having chess engines play thousands of games against each other in these lines.

From that database the overall percentage of well known standard typical "positions and situations" is determined. They are divided into categories such as positions with or without a queen (queens dramatically influence the tactic and strategies in a chessgame), positions with an isolated center pawn, opposite sides castling, etc. Certain positional features can also be specified if so desired.

From these typical positions evaluations are given, for example "the attack has stopped", "pawn down with compensation", or "dead drawn" and these are clearly organized like a math table. This way the newly acquired knowledge is always connected and related to the types of positions they are likely to encounter in actual games.

The player can then be tested on their knowledge in a method similar to the chess tactics server, where a position is given and the player has a certain amount of time to answer, either by providing a move or an evaluation. However it should be noted that the focus is moved away from typical tactical training involving forced lines as such positions are rare in actual games.

That being said positions can still be organized by tactical and strategic themes. A position in which the candidate moves vary by about 0.08 pawn units can be considered strategic, while a position with a larger variance (say 0.25 or more) can be considered tactical.

The software saves most of the what the player does and adapts the training accordingly.

Could the Rybka author develop something similar in English?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2013-09-15 00:51
I haven't even read it, but I note your editing work and have to compliment you.  That was a noble act. 

Of course, if everyone in computer chess practiced such random acts of kindness we might lose our competitive edge and spend all our time giving each other virtual hugs and crying and stuff.  Testosterone: way down.  Estrogen: way up.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 03:02
Not really so altruistic. I sometimes enjoy making bad writing good. I thought I would in this case but it turned out to be torture.

I really have a very very low opinion of him because the quality of his writing borders on trolling, and he posted it in multiple places on the net never once bothering to clean it up.
Parent - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2013-09-15 06:31
"Not really so altruistic. I sometimes enjoy making bad writing good."

A defender of the "psychological egoism" BS. Altruism exists, man. You don't have to feel like shit when doing it. Heck, even if you did someone could argue you're a masochist at heart.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 00:44
So "Electro", what is this software called?
Parent - - By Electro Date 2013-09-15 09:15
Dont need to be corrected,i translated from russian to english,read it as it is,the soft is like a windows,running many processes in the background,liberating the player from clasifiying data,administrate data,..just keep focus on the challenge .Is very adictive,and productive
Parent - - By Electro Date 2013-09-15 09:23
Yeah,labyrint,exactly the same happened when we see games of 2250 players like u,im 2690+  kids,and the post is not thinked to emulate shakespeare,is directed to soft developers
Parent - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 11:46

>Yeah,labyrint,exactly the same happened when we see games of 2250 players like u,


???

>im 2690+


FIDE? So you're one of these guys?

>and the post is not thinked to emulate shakespeare,is directed to soft developers


Software developers like clearly written material too.

Shakespeare is a poor example as some people find his plays hard to understand.

Is it really too much to ask for something as simple as paragraphs and some organization of ideas?
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 11:35

>Dont need to be corrected,i translated from russian to english


You did a HORRIBLE job. It was also obviously also written poorly in Russian.

Anyways, you did not answer my question.

Що таке назва програму?
Parent - - By Electro Date 2013-09-15 17:04
Знаєте хлопці,ідіть спокійно відпочивайте по домам, не треба нашкодити тут комусь,пнехай моі повідомлення дивляться професіонали!!!
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-15 21:25
У нас є нездатність спілкуватися тут. Я ставлю запитання, а ви не відповідаєте. Я виправити текст, написаний вами, який важко читати, а ви стверджуєте, що це не було важко читати. Ми зайшли в глухий кут.
Parent - - By Electro Date 2013-09-17 19:12
This post is for developers
Parent - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2013-09-17 20:49
Так ви говорите, що програма ще не існує, і ви хотіли б, щоб бути створений.

Ось у чому проблема з поганою письмовій формі, ваше повідомлення може бути втрачено.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Russian training method could be duplicated too

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