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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Opening Books / Best Books
- - By tturgut (**) [us] Date 2013-06-10 16:47
Hi, I am a correspondence chess GM.

in your opinion, what are the best opening books right now? (I am not interested in sicilian)

best regards,

Tansel Turgut
Parent - By mocha1961 (***) [us] Date 2013-06-10 17:05
lol
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2013-06-10 18:25

> I am a correspondence chess GM.


Uhm duh, everybody is a correspondence GM these days, :razz:
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2013-06-10 18:41

> Uhm duh, everybody is a correspondence GM these days


I think he's legitimate, I remember him from a while back. His question is just the same old, same old though!
Parent - - By darmar (**) [rs] Date 2013-06-11 14:09
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2013-06-11 16:45
Nice article. If that is him, I apologize. There are so many disingenuous personalities in online chess that a fellow can become jaded. I totally agree with his theories. To win today, one has to know when to leave the computer behind. This is especially true in endgames. If the engine can't find a forced mate, a lot of his moves are just stupid.

As far as opening books go, I was serious about creating your own book. Many, many hours of work are required to make a good book. Nelson's book is IMO the acme of books as far as stats go, but even that can't be trusted in serious CC play. Also, anybody that has a killer book generally keep it to themselves.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2013-06-11 20:22
Static empirical results are only one indicator; useful if you have lots of quantity but decreasingly useful as the sample size decreases, useful if you employ predictive look-ahead but not as much if you don't.  Reliable evaluative results are always needed to buttress empirical results, particularly on the furthest tree nodes.  And finally, the final stage of analysis is what CC players have the luxury of time and resources to employ: Monte Carlo, IDEA and similar approaches.  That's a bridge too far me; my goal is book universality as opposed to developing ultra-narrow and specific analysis of a comparatively small number of individual positions.
Parent - - By bformless (**) Date 2013-11-04 17:38
I use many books, because i am developing my own all in one book and use the other ones as a reference.
The books are (lined up in Aquarium 2012):
Hiarcs 14
Deep Fritz 12
Shredder 12
Houdini 2.0
Rybka 4
Perfect 15
Perfect 2012c
Perfect 2012t
Monks 1.3 Ultimate
1337 free edition 2012
Mytree all (my 1st book i made, ~100 MB)
my_DEEP (some very deep lines i've analyzed, ~5 MB)
ELITE (this is my biggest .ctg book with over 60 million positions and 8GB in size)

What's the best book?
There's no true answer, but i think you should start with HIARCS and Shredder.

cul8'er.
Parent - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2013-12-03 13:21
Good. Mine was over 17 GB. Too slow, not too much Elo gave. I abandon it. But two programs remains. One replaces junk data with zeros in .ctg. Second also deletes all marks, ratings etc.
- - By tturgut (**) [us] Date 2013-06-10 19:44
If you guys have something useful to say, please post, otherwise please do not waste my time and your time.
Parent - By Scott (****) Date 2013-06-11 13:11
Well since you asked, a CC GM should know that the best opening books are the ones you create yourself. :cool:
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2013-06-12 00:57 Edited 2013-06-12 01:01
i think, i have a good one, but why should i give the competition a good book?

if u want to have a good one too, then use any book and analyse it with houdini, until u removed all bad variations urself

play against me and u find out.
Parent - - By Auryn (***) [it] Date 2013-06-14 20:28
GM Turgut a few months ago asked me if I could send him my book, and as I found his request quite absurd. I didn't even reply.
I want to apologize to him for my non-answer, it is nice to reply messages even if they are absurd, and the reply is not positive, but back then I had big personal problems and had other things in my mind.
Anyway my answer would have been something quite simple like this: how do you expect someone, who has something good, to share it with you for free?
Moreover, you never talked with me before and I don't know you at all, except that you are a well known Corr.Gm. (and so you could use it against me if we happen to play) I could understand if we were friends, or at least if we talked in the past, but how can you expect me to share my work with someone that contacts me for the first time and only asks for my book?
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2013-06-15 01:36
Eros, I totally agree with that. If he were truly trying to improve he would try to make his own book!!! :cool:
Parent - - By tturgut (**) [us] Date 2013-06-16 05:58
I think you guys are taking the opening book too seriously.

It is a helpful tool, but not as important as you think. In high level cc, there are 15-20 tools as important as opening books.

Opening books may be very important for fast time control engine matches in servers etc, but not for cc.

All opening books and published books have significant mistakes.

it is such a waste of energy for every one to make their "own opening book", and not advance as a whole.
Parent - - By mocha1961 (***) [us] Date 2013-06-16 13:15
can you tell us those 15-20 tools?
Parent - - By tturgut (**) [us] Date 2013-06-19 02:43
Hi guys,
1) Personally I did not have an idea that anyone had a very good opening book .
2) I am open to suggestions and learning:
     a) Aren't these opening books you mention are for fast games? Can they stand couple days/move of analysis?
     b) I did not find any commercially avaliable opening book strong enough yet. A lot of mistakes.
     c) Do you make your opening books on iDeA? if so, what parameters?  which engine for which opening?
3) I think cc, has much more than opening books to offer.
You need to read WC GM Marjan Semrl's article about the basics.
    a) psychology / stable life style/ strong nerves/ patience/ preseverence/......
    b) Good chess culture/ good positional understanding/  that would help you make sounder decisons than the computer when pure calculation power is not the most important factor
    c) Technology: strong computers/ up to date technology
    d) Books/ positional chess understanding (My library is more than 2600 chess books now. I try to read 1-2 hours/day)
    e) Respect/ willingness to learn: Listening to people who are number one in their chess skill and respecting their opinions (every single chess skill has a different master who is more skilled than others, no one knows it best. One should respect their opinions (this is whay I asked this board their opinion)
   f) mastery in chess techniques: ChessBase/ iDeA/ Infinite analysis/Statistical analysis/Opening books etc .. and some others (which I still use, but most people don't)
   g) Knowing (guessing) which engine is best in particular positions. (I use engines from 10 years ago,which you can not find any more. they are overall weaker, but in some particular positions they are excellent)
   h) Knowing (guessing) when to go your own way, and say that :" this computer does not understand chess, I like this move more, I want to play it"
   i) Giving up material for long term posituional compensation when computers think you are  wrong.
   f) patience (The World Championship Final started 8 days ago, and I did not make a single move yet)...
   g) preparation....research.. finding ideas that none of the books have...

now i need to study again...best regards
Parent - By donkasand (***) [za] Date 2013-06-19 04:45
Dear tturgut

Thanks for the fascinating insights.

Unlike you I cannot devote so much time and resources to CC.

Like you I would like to improve my approach.

However I think you underestimate todays engines and the power of many fast games in compiling a book.

I would very much like to test your approach by playing a friendly correspondence game if you are interested. No time limits. Here on the forum.

I will use a book developed from fast games and no more 30-60 min analysis per move with current engines. My current games do not allow me to spend more time than this.

Up for the challenge? Maybe we can both learn something?

Regards
Parent - - By Chaotic Chess (****) Date 2014-05-04 00:56
I was reading an article in chess.com, are you FM Tansel Turgut?

http://www.chess.com/article/view/2014-bill-wright-saint-louis-open
Parent - By Ozymandias (****) [es] Date 2014-05-04 11:58
You looking to sponge some more knowledge already?
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2014-05-04 13:07 Edited 2014-05-04 13:10
He is; Alvin.
Parent - By Chaotic Chess (****) Date 2014-05-04 13:13
This guy is "for real".
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2013-06-17 02:21
Your two statements directly contradict each other. It is precisely because all opening books and published books have significant mistakes that it is such a productive use of time and energy for every one to make their "own opening book", and not advance as a whole.

Because all opening books have significant mistakes at cc time controls, and because the opening is the portion of the game most amenable to heavy analysis that will actually be used, it is hardly a waste of energy to focus on this effort.

But if you do get Eros to send you his handmade opening book which he has spent his whole life slaving over, I will give you $5 for an exclusive copy! :lol:
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2013-06-17 14:38

>>But if you do get Eros to send you his handmade opening book which he has spent his whole life slaving over, I will give you $5 for an exclusive copy! :lol:


As will I. So you can make $10 right away.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2013-06-18 09:57
you are not as good as auryn (eros) or even me.

one good reason is, that u dont have our books  ;)
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) [es] Date 2013-06-18 10:34
Not as good as Eros, agreed, not as good as you... agreed again, he's surely better.
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2013-06-18 11:39 Edited 2013-06-18 11:47
Correspondence chess rating list ficgs (top 20 active players) :

1         Aigner, Michael  2570
2         Dolgov, Igor  2564
3         Van Assche, Jeroen  2558
4         Riccio, Eros  2547
5         Bergmann, Michael  2535
6         Hladky, Ostap  2527
7         Serazeev, Albert  2501
8         Nemchenko, Valery  2492
9         Kruse, Herbert  2491    thats me, not much difference  :)

our games so far

44787           Riccio  -  Kruse      Ended           1/2-1/2
44788           Kruse  -  Riccio      Ended           1/2-1/2
44789           Riccio  -  Kruse      Ended           1/2-1/2
44790           Kruse  -  Riccio      Ended           0-1
44791           Riccio  -  Kruse      Ended           1/2-1/2
44792           Kruse  -  Riccio      Ended           1/2-1/2
44793           Riccio  -  Kruse      Ended           1/2-1/2
44794           Kruse  -  Riccio      Ended           1/2-1/2
51733           Riccio  -  Kruse      Ended           1/2-1/2
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) [es] Date 2013-06-18 14:20
He hasn't been active for several years now, that's the only reason why I said "surely". The data you provide isn't as conclusive as one would expect/desire. I know from firsthand experience what your level 15 months ago was (must be slightly above H3 now). TT was playing at Houdini 3 level back when all you had was Rybka 3, that's enough for me to make up my mind.
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2013-06-18 15:37
i prefer prove over guesses  ;)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2013-06-19 00:59 Edited 2013-06-19 01:01
He hasn't been active for several years now

Yes! His technique is still fine, and he can easily buy the latest and greatest computers, engines and tools, but catching up on theory is a much more difficult challenge. So he tries to game us by claiming that theory isn't important in cc, and asks Eros to fork over his book! :lol:

Although I admire his technique here, I'm not sure why he thinks Eros would entertain this amusing idea, when he won't even share his lifetime work with his best buddy Alan! :yell:
Parent - By Ozymandias (****) [es] Date 2013-06-19 08:42
Well, there are all sorts of motivations, people is quite strange, and asking is free.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2013-06-19 15:59

> Although I admire his technique here, I'm not sure why he thinks Eros would entertain this amusing idea, when he won't even share his lifetime work with his best buddy Alan!


:lol: Keep trying, you might reach him....:lol::lol::lol:
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2013-06-19 16:52
Keep trying, you might reach him....

I haven't been optimistic ever since he turned down my generous offer to sponsor his running with the bulls in Pamplona! :lol:
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2013-06-16 21:14
how do you expect someone, who has something good, to share it with you for free?

Ah, ok. So we are just talking about money here. For a while, I thought there was some larger principle involved!

The right price is probably thirty pieces of silver... :twisted:
Parent - - By Auryn (***) [it] Date 2013-06-16 21:21
'cos we are liiiivin', in a mateeeerial world... and I am a mateeeerial girl! :twisted:
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) [nl] Date 2013-06-16 22:38
:lol:
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) [de] Date 2013-06-18 15:39
:evil:
- - By Hamster (**) [at] Date 2013-06-10 20:24
You are the one with a rating >2600 - you should tell us! :roll:
Parent - By JhorAVi (***) [ph] Date 2013-06-12 12:26
In my case I have a criteria for the Book that I'm looking for.. But as an OTB tournament player. Not correspondence.

1. Any Book that favor most good moves instead of pure database statistics.
2. Any Book that includes most of the Blunders and the immediate refutation.
3. Blunder checked on most critical positions.

I used the word "most" because I understand that no Book can cover everything. I just want your help which of the leading Books is nearest to my criteria above.

thanks.
- - By Regularuser (***) [gb] Date 2013-06-19 17:57
Actually, this is quite an interesting question.  

If we accept that:
- the best books are ones you create yourself but are not publicly available
- paper books are an excellent source but that is not what was being asked
that leaves the question of what is the best publicly available computer book.

Does the answer depend on whether you are playing blitz or correspondence? (I don't see why it should)

And what is the criteria for best?   A book that has lots of dull lines and no errors might be considered either worse or better than a book with lots of sharp lines that are mainly good but with a few errors.

I should say I have never really used a computer book so am not qualified to answer the question.   Part of the reaoson is that I looked at a couple (Perfect and Hiarcs) and was not too impressed but they may not be the best examples.
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2013-06-19 18:41
I think a person needs many books. One with everything you can get your hands on.

One with very select games of your own and the elite players, no engines.

Then others taylored to a specific opening such as the Traxler, or Cochrane. :grin:
Parent - By leavenfish (***) [us] Date 2013-09-15 15:43
I think Turgut is barking up the wrong tree (forum). This one is made up of a bunch of 'wanna-be's' (largely) so he is asking the peanut gallery.

The link to the game...perfectly good game. h2...Ne5...none of it can not be found by Stockfish quickly though. It's just a 'bad', slow defense by Black - the kind you can't play today with or without the 'help' of engines.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Opening Books / Best Books

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