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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / IPCCC 2007 - Paderborn
- - By richbell (**) Date 2007-11-10 17:21
Finally it's here, can't wait to see Rybka crush Hiarcs and Shredder. It will be great if Zappa & Junior joins, it will be very interesting.

http://wwwcs.upb.de/~IPCCC/
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2007-11-10 17:43
Those 3 are way stronger than the rest. It would be nice if there were a LOT more strong entrants.
Parent - By richbell (**) Date 2007-11-10 19:26
Yeah, Spike, Zappa, Junior, NaumX would complete the list for the ultimate clash.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-11-10 23:00
I don't think those three are "way" stronger than the rest--there is one more to add, and I think that GridChess will earn third place, ahead of either Hiarcs or Shredder.
Parent - By josh Date 2007-11-10 23:29
Glad to see that Rybka will still represent the U.S.A.

Vasik, Larry , Jeroen , Dagh...kick some ass.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2007-11-11 09:16
I beg to differ - from the ratings lists the 3 mentioned are way ahead. I forgot about gridchess though, although I think this was a dissapointment last year?
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-11-11 12:34
Well, my argument is that the number should go from 3 to 4 to include GridChess (and that then these four are way ahead of the rest of the field)--I thought it had a very impressive showing this year at WCCC, earning a tie for fourth place with Shredder, and if a few bugs have been worked out in the meantime, who knows?
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2007-11-11 15:40
Well, yes ok.
Is gridchess a crafty variant on a cluster machine?
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2007-11-11 18:54
A cluster Toga, with some code from Crafty. It's been discussed before.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-11-11 21:55
As per Vempele's correct note above, check the threads about the 2007 WCCC, as there was much discussion there.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-12 01:34
Just ignore this statement:

Either you didn't read their description or you didn't understand it. It's IMPOSSIBLE to implement YBWC in Toga without making significant changes.

Because Toga is in fact used as a UCI engine without changes. (See Kai's thesis for details).

Alan
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2007-11-12 06:29
Thank you very much for the link. I couldn't find anything newer than 2005.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-12 07:33
http://wwwcs.uni-paderborn.de/pc2/fileadmin/download/Annual_Report_2005.pdf?PHPSESSID=fa985119c34d5326ef3f584dc7b73b5d

Pages 96-99 is a high level overview. Reference 1 was the paper I was referring to. Its actually not his thesis (which was done years earlier I think at the U of Hamburg).

Somewhere on my computer I have Reference 1, his 14 page 2005 article in ICGA. It was an interesting read. I have to fly to AMS in a few hours, so I can't locate it right now.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-11-13 12:14
On paper, Gridchess should be quite strong. There are a number of issues, though, starting with the opening book. We'll see.

Vas
Parent - - By Linus (***) Date 2007-11-12 11:26
Nice. But click on Participants so see some marketing BS like:

Shredder by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen has already won nine titles as World Computer Chess Champion, is leading in all important computer chess rating lists and is accepted as the best chess programs for PCs. Please see www.shredderchess.com for more information.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2007-11-12 11:37
Those old descriptions haven't been updated for several years.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2007-11-12 11:46
That raises an interesting point. If a website claims its product is the best, when it is, and then another product beats it - does the first have an obligation to change the data on their website? I would imagine they do but chess programmers are very slow to do this!
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-11-12 11:56
Fruit kept the claim on its own web site of being the best program and such for about 16 months after Rybka came around.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2007-11-12 13:25
"That raises an interesting point. If a website claims its product is the best, when it is, and then another product beats it - does the first have an obligation to change the data on their website?"

Yep, they have to change it.
Maybe to something like "one of the best programs in the world". :)
Parent - - By richbell (**) Date 2007-11-12 12:35 Edited 2007-11-12 12:41
That's BS, and not an excuse. If shredder would have truly won all the rating list ahead of Rybka until now, you think they would have kept it just like that (un-updated).

Hope they had updated their engine. :-) cheap, very cheap.
IMO last ditch effort to cheat innocent chess fans by false claims and grab their money. Same goes with fritz, they talk as if it's still the best in the world and so much happening thing.

I respect Chess master better since they don't claim they have the strongest engine. 
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2007-11-12 13:20
"Same goes with fritz"

I always thought Fritz was the strongest engine until I heard someone talk about Rybka in the Kramnik Forum during the Kramnik vs Deep Fritz 10 battle. I then downloaded the beta version and tested it against Fritz 8 and I was impressed by the way it beats Fritz 8.

"I respect Chess master better since they don't claim they have the strongest engine"

Me too, plus I would recommend it (Chessmaster) to anyone who would like to study chess, because of it's tutorials and different styles of personalities.
Parent - - By richbell (**) Date 2007-12-21 05:41
Anyone knows if this tournament is planned to be broadcast on the net?
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2007-12-21 10:02
We have asked the organisation for a second internet connection, to broadcast Rybka's games
live on Playchess.

Jeroen
Parent - - By richbell (**) Date 2007-12-21 14:38
That's great, thanks for the info Jeroen.
Parent - - By richbell (**) Date 2007-12-23 06:56
Damn, Just less than a week to go, we don't seem to have Junior, Fritz, Naum and Zappa in the participant list. Wonder why :-(
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-23 09:57
Fritz doesn't participate in computer chess tournaments anymore (they're afraid of losing since Rybka is simply better), the other engines maybe just don't have time...
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-12-23 21:43
Fritz doesn't participate in comp tournaments since 2004, when it played in paderborn for the last time. Fritz' last participation in a computer world championship was in 2003. - In 2007, it played the computer match in Elista against Junior though, losing.

http://wwwcs.uni-paderborn.de/~IPCCC/IPCCC2004/ranking.html

Naum has not participated in Paderborn yet, and Junior neither I think (at leat not in recent years).
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-12-23 21:45 Edited 2007-12-23 21:50
Yes that is right. Fritz had retired from tournaments long before Rybka existed. Meanwhile Hiarcs made a return to tournaments in 2006 after Rybka was released once there was some real competition!

On a serious note about Paderborn I think the timing between Christmas and New year makes it difficult for some to enter.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2007-12-23 22:08 Edited 2007-12-23 22:13
OK, maybe they were afraid of Hiarcs in the time between their retirement and the beginning of the "Rybka era" :) (even if you didn't participate in tournaments in that time... or maybe they were afraid of Shredder or Hydra?)
Parent - - By richbell (**) Date 2007-12-24 05:43

> OK, maybe they were afraid of Hiarcs in the time between their retirement and the beginning of the "Rybka era" :-) (even if you didn't participate in tournaments in that time... or maybe they were afraid of Shredder or Hydra?)


Good, point taken, don't know what they were afraid of, but they were afraid of something :-)

I guess Harvey would agree to that now.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-12-24 06:51 Edited 2007-12-24 06:53
I think they simply were tired of NOT winning, even during times when Fritz was leading the ratings. Fritz won only one World Champion title, in Hongkong 1995. There, Fritz won the game against Deep Blue which made a terrible move, castling O-O in front of an open g file. Later, that was explained with time trouble due to loss of connection.

[Event "8th WCCCh"]
[Site "Hong Kong"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Deep Blue"]
[Black "Fritz"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B33"]
[PlyCount "78"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.
Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 f5 11. Bd3 Be6 12. Qh5 f4 13. O-O Rg8 14. Kh1 Rg6
15. Qd1 Rc8 16. c4 Qh4 17. g3 Qh3 18. Qd2 f3 19. Rg1 Rh6 20. Qxh6 Qxh6 21. cxb5
Bxd5 22. exd5 Nb4 23. Bf5 Rc5 24. bxa6 Nxa6 25. Nc2 Qd2 26. Ne1 Rxd5 27. Nxf3
Qxf2 28. Be4 Ra5 29. Rg2 Qe3 30. Re1 Qh6 31. Bc6+ Kd8 32. a3 f5 33. Rc2 Rc5 34.
Rxc5 Nxc5 35. Rf1 Be7 36. a4 f4 37. gxf4 Qxf4 38. Rg1 Nxa4 39. b4 Qxb4 0-1

I didn't look up all these tournaments now, but I think Hiarcs (WCh. 1993) quit the world championships even earlier, for a period of several years. It is possible though that it was in the Dutch tournaments, like in 2007 (the tournament history at www.csvn.nl is incomplete, unfortunately).

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/program.php?id=53

I remember that M.Uniacke was quoted several times, in the sense of "I only participate if I see a chance to win."

From other top programs, Tiger's last WCh. participation was 2001 and King didn't participate between 1996 and 2006. All of that may partially explain the long series of titles for either Junior or Shredder, although of course nobody can claim that they wouldn't have won anyway, in those years.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-12-24 13:10
"I only participate if I see a chance to win."

Well, seeing as Hiarcs has been participating in these international tournaments lately, i.e. since December 2005, Mark has obviously changed his position!

Barbequed Hiarcs wads

1 lb of ground Hiarcs
One medium onion
1/2 c. bread crumbs
1 large egg
2 tbsp. olive oil
1/3 cup water
3/4 tsp. salt
1/4 tsp. pepper
3/4 c. ketchup
2 tbsp. Dijon mustard
2 tbsp. brown sugar
1 tsp. Worcestershire sauce
1/4 cup milk

Mince onion. Combine the ground Hiarcs, onion, bread crumbs, salt, pepper, egg and milk.  Make into wads and cook in oil. Remove Hiarcs wads with slotted spoon. Add ketchup, water, mustard, brown sugar, and Worcestershire sauce to pan and bring to boil.

Return Hiarcs wads to the pan and simmer until hot.
Parent - By boo! (**) Date 2007-12-24 13:39
Interestingly, Rybka needs a 15 ply search before realizing that 13.O-O is a blunder.

It's strange that Deep Blue played 13.O-O only because of a lost connection, but still played the horrible 16.c4, not realizing the severly compromized kingside...
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / IPCCC 2007 - Paderborn

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