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- - By vesuvio (**) Date 2012-08-17 09:26
The FIDE website today published an update on proceedings at the FIDE Ethics Commission: http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2012/FIDE/FIDE_Ethics_Commission_Decisions.pdf (although the document's dated 1 July)

It includes:

case 2/2012 “Rybka and ICGA” (complaint by Mr Vas Rajlich and Mr
Chris Whittington against the International Computer Games Association
(“ICGA”)) Procedural decision (preliminary request of additional
information). The FIDE Secretariat will communicate the decision to the
complainants.


Apologies if the existence of the complaint to the Ethics Commission was already mentioned somewhere, but does anyone have any more details?
Parent - - By sarciness (***) Date 2012-08-17 11:00
Presumably that means they're going to keep it all private unless Vas makes it public?
Parent - - By vesuvio (**) Date 2012-08-17 11:22
So far I think it just means they haven't taken a decision on whether to investigate the case or not. If the case went forward the proceedings wouldn't be public but the verdict would most likely be published in full - or at least that's what's happened with some high profile cases like the cheating case against Feller and co.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2012-08-17 11:31
So is the right way to read this something along the lines of: 'Vas strikes back' ?
Parent - - By vesuvio (**) Date 2012-08-17 11:59
Probably a little dramatic  :grin: Though it would be an interesting development if Vas formally addressed the charges and perhaps gave evidence in front of a hearing.

My guess would be the focus is on the lifetime ban, which if the ICGA has to conform to FIDE standards does look harsh - compared e.g. to Feller being banned for 2 years and 9 months for cheating (although it should be noted that being banned from FIDE events for almost 3 years will have a massively greater impact on Feller than Vas being banned from ICGA events, which essentially has no impact whatsoever). It could lead to a pyrrhic victory though - if FIDE forced a lesser ban (which actually I think a majority of people on both sides of the dispute wouldn't mind) but upheld the ban itself that would surely harm Vas' reputation.

Anyway, that's all just speculation. It's worth noting most cases going before the commission appear to get dismissed early on, presumably for procedural issues.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2012-08-17 12:06
It does seem to indicate though that Vas is still interested in computer chess. I was wondering if he had quit...and I hope he hasn't.
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) Date 2012-08-17 12:34
Thanks to Vesuvio for his post.  

Will FIDE rule on this?  Is Vas providing his source code to them?

Hopefully we'll hear something more on this from Vas/Chris/Lukas.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2012-08-17 17:03

>  Is Vas providing his source code to them?


I guess providing source code to them is like providing Einstein's theory of relativity to a cow. :lol:
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 17:07
He lost the source code :roll:
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-08-17 19:20
The specific version, yes, but he could produce later code I guess if he wanted to.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2012-08-17 20:11
Since apparently any random dude can reverse engineer an executable nowadays(*), it should be sufficient to provide them with the Exes if required. Then, FIDE needs to find an independant expert to evaluate the matter, and give his neutral expertise. What about Bob Hyatt for example? Congratulations in advance.

*) Having a strong source code at hand doesn't mean anyone can benefit from it, obviously. Available soon...
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 20:13
I do not think the purpose of the ethics committee is to review the evidence but just to look at the ethics....
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2012-08-17 20:30
But they cannot decide about the proceedures having been ethical or unethical, without evaluation of the data. It's all about the facts and how they are evaluated. We have various expert's opinions pointing in different directions. The decision process of the FIDE ethic commission will not be an easy one.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-18 19:35 Edited 2012-08-18 21:39
Harvey, there is enough evidence on this forum alone and other forums, (OpenChess and Talkchess )  to substantiate unmitigated  unethical conduct on the part of the ICGA's secretariat during the fact finding process. 

The biased  inflammatory rhetoric made sure and  precluded any chance of fairness-in fact,  it precluded taking a hard and careful look at the data collected.

It was considered from the get go to be a far gone conclusion that Vas was  guilty as charged.

Even Watkins in his postings -clearly suggests- looking for  data that would incriminate- presenting the  assumptions that would back up the going assertion of guilty.

And, I am sure that most of what Watkins did was done with all the honest intention of showing that the man was guilty- It was not done with the intent of just  producing good science by taking a neutral position. He was, himself headhunting.

P.S.

Very cool keep up the good work. As we all know you will! :wink::yell:
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-08-18 21:17

> I do not think the purpose of the ethics committee is to review the evidence but just to look at the ethics....


Indeed and among other things you might start to worry how well your (and Bob's) language use will be valued by the ethics committee.
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-18 21:26
lol
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 01:47
Right.  I am REALLY worried about that. 

Jeez, what an imagination.  I don't get intimidated very easily.  Certainly not THIS easily...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 06:32 Edited 2012-08-20 15:26

> I don't get intimidated very easily; Certainly not THIS easily...


:lol:

Man, you really have a distorted sense of self. If there is anyone on this forum  who shows a great deal of  intimation- it would be you!

The fact that you have based your  arguments on  premised assertions and not on fact- then treat  those assertions as principled facts- shows that you have an unwillingness to let in any light that might end up  changing your mind. You could not truly handle that- it would kill you; that idea,  no doubt,  intimidates the living crap out of you. 

If someone even comes close to proving  you wrong you  go right into your repetitive mode. Ultimately, you end up contradicting yourself.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 21:36
First, I would suggest you look up the word "intimidation" and second, then point out where it appears I have been intimidated by ANYONE here.

Good luck with that...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 22:02
Well, Bob! The truth can become a fearful enemy!
Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-08-21 17:54
Not when it is on OUR side...

Oh, you mean an enemy for you guys?  Agreed...  But that would not exactly intimidate ME...
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-08-20 06:48
Didn't David Levy not point out to you that you are bound by FIDE ethic code since the ICGA is an affiliated FIDE organization?
Parent - - By Bob Durrett (***) Date 2012-08-20 13:29
I am mildly curious about the following:

When (on what date) did ICGA become affiliated with FIDE?

This may (or may not) be significant if it occurred after the ICGA "witch trial" was already under way.

When (on what date) did the ICGA investigation of Rybka begin?

Maybe ICGA was not "obligated" to abide by FIDE ethics code at that time.

Bob Durrett
Parent - - By h.g.muller (****) Date 2012-08-20 14:16
Some 30 years ago, I think, (it was still called ICCA then, of course).
Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 21:32
I don't remember specifics, but I think HGM is roughly correct.  FIDE and the ICCA (now ICGA) became "friends" when FIDE saw the interest in computer chess, and the interest the commercial companies had in entering their programs into human tournaments due to the publicity / exposure they received.  And, of course, they noticed that the commercial companies payed the ICCA large registration fees, for multiple copies of an engine to be entered into the WMCCC.  FIDE added a "computer member" capability many years ago, but it required something like $30,000 (US) or something similar in order to get a computer program into FIDE so that it could play in FIDE-sanctioned events.

There is no ethical issue involved in this investigation, other than the ethics of copying the work of others and claiming it to be original work...
Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2012-08-20 21:34
The panel was not bound by any FIDE rules at all.  Ever seen a fide presence at an ICGA event?  Nope.  ICGA would be constrained if they ever came up with the small fortune necessary to register several FIDE computer memberships and then organize an event.  There are NO FIDE issues in the ICGA, FIDE members do not play in ICGA events.  The ICGA makes no decisions that have any impact on FIDE whatsoever.  This is all pure nonsense...  as will be seen once they make a ruling.
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2012-08-17 12:30
It is surely about the flawed process that was used more than anything else. Smart move to go the FIDE rather than the now discredited ICGA, who incredibly even now can't see anything wrong with what they did.
Parent - By vesuvio (**) Date 2012-08-17 13:37
Unless the commission decides that the proper procedure is first to appeal to the ICGA...
Parent - Date 2012-08-17 19:15
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-17 14:29 Edited 2012-08-17 14:33
I hope I'm wrong, but I think  FIDE will shy away from this controversy -"possibly" at most mildly admonishing the ICGA and maybe  encouraging them to reconsider their directives against Vas,  (which of course the ICGA would ignore) to just stating they have no authority in the matter.

FIDE might not have a soft spot for Vas after his challenging them to keep competition open and honest. 

http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm

[edit]

But who knows! Stranger things have happened in the world of politics.
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2012-08-17 17:09

> (which of course the ICGA would ignore)


That, I doubt! Their reputation (?! :lol: wahuhuhahaha) is at stake.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 17:12

>> http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm


I am sure FIDE would love to know what happened after the tournament ended in Mexico.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-17 18:17
What is it that you think happened?
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 18:18
I know what happened but this is not the time or the place.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-08-17 18:41
Harvey, feel free to use this as your starter sentence- :grin:

"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets..."
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 19:23
Thanks, will do!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-08-17 19:31
"Call me Ishmael" would be more appropriate for Harvey's fish story...
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-17 19:32
Be careful because there is lots of evidence in writing about the attempt to con FIDE.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-08-17 21:05
I am not aware of any FIDE communication indicating this. Believe it or not, not everyone sees things the way you do...
Parent - - By siah (***) Date 2012-08-19 05:45
Harvey.

>The Dung Beetle of Computer Chess. (Lukas 2012)


Do you enjoy insults to you?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-08-19 05:49
Lukas was just saying that Harvey really knows his shit.
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-08-19 09:20
Alan,you noticed that Harvey wrote you,like it shows my pic,but delete the mesage? :lol:
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-19 09:58
you are wrong as usual.
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-08-19 10:05
is always better being always wrong because im an ignorant,than knowing the truth and being an hypocrite like you are

try to make friends,or if you cant,buy some of them,and leave me alone,losser
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-19 09:57
And it seems the proof that I know my shit has been deleted by the thought Police. Hopefully you got it by email :)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-08-19 09:59
Good thing I saw it before it was deleted! Now I know my shit too! :lol:
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2012-08-19 10:25
I moved it to our moderator's section because it was stolen from http://www.healthhype.com/feces-faeces-formation-composition-color-and-odor.html. It looks to me like Harvey doesn't care for copyright.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-08-19 10:28
It's all ok though because he balances this out by claiming infringement where it doesn't exist! :lol:
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2012-08-19 10:43
Sounds fair :lol:
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-08-19 10:32
Best place for it the smell will be good for you there.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka & ICGA at the FIDE Ethics Commission
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