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This is a variant of chess played on 5×5 board:
http://play.chessvariants.org/erf/MiniChss.html
Is it theoretically solved (In sense like checkers)?
http://play.chessvariants.org/erf/MiniChss.html
Is it theoretically solved (In sense like checkers)?
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
Interesting game; unfortunately, the "engine" isn't very good (I won both my games, one with each color). There is a decent chance that this is either solved or could be solved with a desktop PC.
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> Is it theoretically solved (In sense like checkers)?
There is surprisingly little literature on 5x5 minichess.
I am sure it has not been solved as yet.
You can also play it on "Zillions of games"
http://www.zillions-of-games.com/
(even on the demo version)
I played around with both 5x5 and 6x6 before. Lots of fun. I even converted my program (written in Basic) to play both versions. I was always hoping that someone with a strong program would convert theirs. I remember that Marc B. made a lot of tablebases for 6x6. (Some of the distances to mate were even longer than for 8x8!)
Mark
Mark
There was a big debate in Russian journal "Quant" about miniature (5×5) chess some 25 years ago.
Scientist and chess experts both agreed than it was not just clear
if the game is theoretically draw or not,but also which side in the
opening has an advantage (if the case is opposite) .
Needless to say ,computer technology and software in the begging
of 1980s was much weaker than today.
What was once supercomputer today is ordinary PC.
I ask this becouse I calculated number of positions of this game,and
it's not higher than in checkers (~10^22).
Come on people,I'm sure it's solvable today.
CAN SOMEBODY PASS USEFULL INFORMATION ABOUT
THEORETICAL STATUS OF MINIATURE CHESS ?
You know,I'm not interested in playing this variant of chess.
Especially not with ELO1000 strenght on-line machines.
My question is just this:Draw or not?
Scientist and chess experts both agreed than it was not just clear
if the game is theoretically draw or not,but also which side in the
opening has an advantage (if the case is opposite) .
Needless to say ,computer technology and software in the begging
of 1980s was much weaker than today.
What was once supercomputer today is ordinary PC.
I ask this becouse I calculated number of positions of this game,and
it's not higher than in checkers (~10^22).
Come on people,I'm sure it's solvable today.
CAN SOMEBODY PASS USEFULL INFORMATION ABOUT
THEORETICAL STATUS OF MINIATURE CHESS ?
You know,I'm not interested in playing this variant of chess.
Especially not with ELO1000 strenght on-line machines.
My question is just this:Draw or not?
The "Martin Gardner" starting position for 5x5 chess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minichess) with the king in the corner seems to always end in a draw with my program. Some of the other starting positions are much less drawish. I think any of the skilled programmers that read this forum could easily create an unbeatable program (and with tablebases could determine the game theoretic value).
Mark
Mark
Well Mark (and Martin :)),it's a quite time to do so and even more.
I'm not personally interested in playing 5×5 minichess ,but
judged by my calculations, hardware and software state of art today,
the ultimate question for this game,can be answered and game solved.
It's particularly interesting case of a chess game becouse it's the smallest
variant where all the chess rules as in the ordinary chess are present.
And all the"Fischer random" arrangments ,you mention, should be also solved.
If all of these,by some miracle,are draws ,than it will be a strong indicator
what's the fate of the ordinary (8×8) chess.
The only remaining question to me who is going to do this work for minichess first.
Somebody on this forum wishes to make history?:)
What program did you use Mark(did you adjusted the open code of some known
chess program or you did the programming yourself)?
I'm not personally interested in playing 5×5 minichess ,but
judged by my calculations, hardware and software state of art today,
the ultimate question for this game,can be answered and game solved.
It's particularly interesting case of a chess game becouse it's the smallest
variant where all the chess rules as in the ordinary chess are present.
And all the"Fischer random" arrangments ,you mention, should be also solved.
If all of these,by some miracle,are draws ,than it will be a strong indicator
what's the fate of the ordinary (8×8) chess.
The only remaining question to me who is going to do this work for minichess first.
Somebody on this forum wishes to make history?:)
What program did you use Mark(did you adjusted the open code of some known
chess program or you did the programming yourself)?
What I meant by "solved" is solved on the Weak level,
as explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game
as explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game
I wrote my own program a few years ago in basic, which was the only language I was familiar with. It's very weak since it doesn't have hash tables, null move, etc. I just wanted to see if I could write a chess program. Anyway, it was easy to convert it to 5x5 and 6x6. I was hoping I could find a forced win of material from the opening, but I didn't. Next year I hope to convert it to c or java, add null move, etc.
Regards,
Mark
Regards,
Mark
![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
I've (re)solved 3x3 tick-tack-toe... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.jurjevic/Eiffel/Eiffel.zip ... :-)
I'd be interested to see your calculations. I find that 5x5 chess grows much more quickly than checkers, making a solution to the game (either weakly or strongly) currently out of reach. In 10 years the situation may be different.
In the Wikipedia minichess entry there is a tantalizing statement.
Later AISE (Associazione Italiana Scacchi Eterodossi) abandoned pawn double-move and castling. The game was played a lot in Italy (including by correspondence) and opening theory was developed. The statistics of the finished games is the following:[1]
* White won in 40% of games.
* Black won in 28%.
* Draw was in 32%.
I've followed, as much as I can not knowing Italian, the AISE pages. It appears they abandoned 5x5 chess in the 90s, on the grounds that it was proven to be a draw. Or perhaps that as opening theory matured the game became boring.
If we have any Italian friends here I'd be very interested if the history of this game - plus its literature and opening theory - could be researched and published more broadly.
john
In the Wikipedia minichess entry there is a tantalizing statement.
Later AISE (Associazione Italiana Scacchi Eterodossi) abandoned pawn double-move and castling. The game was played a lot in Italy (including by correspondence) and opening theory was developed. The statistics of the finished games is the following:[1]
* White won in 40% of games.
* Black won in 28%.
* Draw was in 32%.
I've followed, as much as I can not knowing Italian, the AISE pages. It appears they abandoned 5x5 chess in the 90s, on the grounds that it was proven to be a draw. Or perhaps that as opening theory matured the game became boring.
If we have any Italian friends here I'd be very interested if the history of this game - plus its literature and opening theory - could be researched and published more broadly.
john
It appears they abandoned 5x5 chess in the 90s, on the grounds that it was proven to be a draw.
??
No, it certainly hasn't been proven Gardner Chess is a draw!(No matter how boring that game can be :))
Althought the universe of legal positions is smaller than in checkers (~10^17 vs ~10^22),this game presents more challenge to be resolved by computers than checkers.Unless you don't find a forced win for one of the sides.AFAIK, nobody has found it yet.
??
No, it certainly hasn't been proven Gardner Chess is a draw!(No matter how boring that game can be :))
Althought the universe of legal positions is smaller than in checkers (~10^17 vs ~10^22),this game presents more challenge to be resolved by computers than checkers.Unless you don't find a forced win for one of the sides.AFAIK, nobody has found it yet.
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