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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly Vs. Mark Eldridge N (Not A Last Game) 1/2-1/2
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Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-02-08 14:08
Stand alone engine, centaur, correspondence player (be it a PC on infinite analysis or a human interacting with a computer)... we're all in draw territory already.
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2018-02-08 15:53 Edited 2018-02-08 16:02
Sadly nearly true (i think there is still a little left in corr; most nowadays are just "Stockfish-best-move"-lazy; and beating guys with inferior hardware a few years back still gave me adrenaline :lol), and more or less a reason to return to the woods... if it weren't for guys like Uly, who can beat himself from both sides of the board! :smile: Uly, please come back and help the corr-patient to survive a little longer! :yell:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-02-07 20:06
Thanks Mark, let him know a few hundred fans here are waiting! Anton
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-03-26 23:22
Hey Anton! Yeah, I'm here...

A few hundreds of fans?! Are any of them female, I wouldn't mind meeting up with them :lol:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-27 09:03
:smile:, a good day for rybkaforum and [it's] corr-chess!

> A few hundreds of fans?! Are any of them female, I wouldn't mind meeting up with them :lol:

Isn't Mexico and/or South America overall "heaven" regarding attractive female essences? But honestly: They ALL want your best (money!) and most can't even play chess, let alone setting the pieces to the right starting position... I on the other side would even cook you up eh for you! :grin: I read over at talkchess that you're forging your own Stockweapons, boy i miss the good old days of move 'n talk.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-03-28 01:33
Playing chess is the least thing I need women for :razz:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-28 08:54
In my youth i used to play a lot strip-chess...
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-29 11:39
That reply was served on a silver platter, admit it.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-29 12:38
:wink: I wished just i would get here a real let'splay-challenge by a Spanish-speaking guy! :surprised:
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-29 19:02
I always though Spanish to be a badly identified with Castilian, several languages are just as "Spanish" as that one; the only difference is that Castilian was the only one that succeeded in being exported.
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-29 20:38
I for my part prefer the "language" of Hernán Cortés de Monroy i Pizarro Altamirano translated onto a [corr-]chessboard! :evil:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-03-26 23:21
Oh, hey Mark! Sorry about the delay, the forum software marked this thread old and read even though I never entered it! Very weird! But here's my move, I hope we can continue playing!

1. d4 g6 2. e4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. e5 Nh5 8. O-O dxe5 9. dxe5 Bh6 10. g3 Bh3 11. Re1
Bg4 12. Be4 Ng7 13. Be3 Ne6 14. Nd5 f5 15. exf6 exf6 16. Bf2 Re8 17. c3 Bh5 18. Bc2 Kh8 19. Qd3 Qd7 20. Nh4 Rad8
21. Nxf6 Qf7 22. Nd5 Bg7 23. Qb5 Ne5 24. fxe5 c6 25. Qf1 Rxd5 26. Bxa7 Qc7 27. Bb3 Rf8 28. Qg2 b6 29. Bxd5 cxd5
30. g4 g5 31. gxh5 gxh4 32. Qg4 Nc5 33. Qd4 Qxa7 34. h6 Bxh6 35. e6+ Bg7 36. Qxd5

5r1k/q5bp/1p2P3/2nQ4/7p/2P5/PP5P/R3R1K1 b - -
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-27 09:03

> Sorry about the delay

Actually your opponent let you wait 1148 days for his 35th move, so don't worry...

BUT: Your post is missing crucial information!

True, there is a move, a notation and even a nice little board, but what really counts would be something like this...

Parent - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-27 15:44
Good times.
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) Date 2018-03-28 11:56
This is correct i did let him wait a long time.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-27 15:47
Hey Uly, the talkchess forum lacks the nice "relied to a post" feature, so you may've missed Thibault de Vassal kind of trashing one of yours (slightly, I know, but I'm trying to keep up with Anton's teasing).
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-03-28 01:34
Thibault de Vassal? Name sounds familiar but I can't put my finger on it!
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-28 07:45
You're being sarcastic, right?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-03-30 02:58
Nah, I actually forgot who he was :lol:

Anyway, nothing against FICGS, at least they let you play as many games as you wish, no limit, unlike ICCF (where thus far, I've been unable to start games on my own at all, it's always some people in charge that have to arrange something) or (which still limits me to max 10... though, it has the strongest opposition I've ever faced, 2100 rating players seem like 2400 ICCF players, or something :eek: )
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-30 05:40
Of the ones I've tried so far, ICCF would have my lowest rating. Not only it isn't free, they don't offer anything in exchange for your money (at least when you're starting). Unresponsive TDs, very weak or simply absent opponents, excruciatingly long time controls, not a 100% online server... you name it, whatever problem you may imagine, they have it!
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-30 11:32
Btw., i wasn't aware it costs money playing ICCF?! How much?

And the major aim always was gaining a ("official") GM-titel... a few were "lucky" enough exploiting the engine-age, even beating unassisted players bolstering their ELO and gaining ones; but nowadays everyone sits on that achievement, drawing everything down, which makes a titel-hunt a nearly endless journey...
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-30 12:40
A little bit less than 1€ each game. That may seem cheap, compared to FIDE tournaments, but considering their expenses and zero prize funds, it's astronomically expensive.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-30 13:36
With 1€/game its even more shocking that most <=ELO-2300 people there don't care about the quality of their play. When i played online-poker, i realized quickly there is already a hugh climb in playing quality from paper-money to micro-stakes, let alone rising stakes thereof.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-30 17:23
The low quality, of many of the entry level games, also surprised me, specially considering how so many correspondence players have left a lifetime hobby, because of the (supposedly) general use of engines. Anybody wanting to play for fun, can still opt for these servers, as a way to continue playing correspondence chess.

As I see it, the problem isn't really that some players will resort to engines, and others won't. The real deal breaker, will probably be the fact that the majority of players not using them, aren't even serious players to begin with. They neither are very good, nor do they invest any reasonable amount of time for their moves. So far, I've only met one player (among dozens) who played on his own, but actually played well.

In the end, having fun will be difficult: you either play against someone who's appalling level will hardly encourage you to continue, or someone using an engine. If you play the latter on your own, you have to be ready to lose most of your games; if you use an engine, you must be ready to draw all of them.

It's puzzling that some people, will pay for that kind of "entertainment", but that's the average ICCF entry level player. I don't expect them to last long, which means that they just rotate (get tired after a fashion, and are replaced).
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-03-30 19:21
Exactly the "entertainment"&talk is why i [always] prefered playing here instead on ICCF/FICGS/LSS/...-servers. :smile:
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-03-31 08:18
LSS is ok, "fast" time controls, serious players, free...
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-04-02 06:11
LSS is not okay, they have locked me to 10 games max. I guess LSS could easily be the best if they didn't have this ridiculous system where you earn more games as you go on, but meanwhile it's better to just start more at ICCF or FICGS.

I haven't paid a single cent for my ICCF games. The things have gone like, your delegate invites you to play in the national team, then he arranges friendly matches of your country against another country. 3. ??? 4. PROFIT!

We started 2 matches against the teams of Argentina and Brazil, but I'm not taking part on them (hey, so I'm the guy on Earth offered free ICCF games and rejecting them!), because with the 16 games starting April 15 from the "Coppa Latina" I'll have too many games at once, to begin with.

The great things about such friendly matches is that you get really strong opposition. On paper. Despite my 2185 rating I was paired with guys of 2300 rating and such. But what's the point if they have the same level of LSS's 2100?

I was paired against 3 guys with my rating on our Match against USA, and I found their strength very disappointing. I guess the frustrating thing is that you see their weak moves, you see how bad they are, yet it's so damn hard to win that games end in a draw anyway.

And also, I don't know what I want! I clomplain when my opponents of high rating are push-overs, I complain when the opponent is so strong I struggle to defend the game. I complain when my opponent is of my level but nothing seems to happen on the game and it's a quiet draw. *Sigh* I was playing +40 games on October 2017 and more than half of them are over, and I wasn't satisfied with any. It's like I'm compulsively trying to relive the old times on Rybka Forum, and that's why I keep playing corr chess, but it's seems it's useless and those times won't come back...

In conclusion, ICCF's foundations seem to be about a site where the best thing you can do is joining your country's team and play against other countries, which brings lots of free games. Other than that, it seems FICGS is the winner for me, though maybe I'll change my opinion once LSS gives me more games, but I'll never forgive them for making wait like this.

So in ICCF I'm about to start 6 more games than the maximum LSS allows? Really?
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 07:38
Your situation is pretty particular, I wouldn't make generalisations based on that experience. Most people don't get invited to play for the national team, so ICCF is basically a paid server for 99% of the players. As for imposing a limit of 10 games, which doesn't raise until you play more games, I think that's a good measure on the part of the LSS team, and this drastically reduces absenteeism. At FICGS, the most they do is make recommendations, about not starting many tournaments simultaneously, and this is what happens. You may be among those serious player with self control, who don't need an external limit to be imposed upon them, but there's no way for the rule to know that, so you get more games at LSS as you go, this seems like the way to go, IMO.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2018-04-02 08:30
I have played both on LSS and ICCF. Both are excellent places to play, but now I only play on ICCF. The main reason is that the strongest players are on ICCF, it is well organized and that's where all the strongest players from my country play.

There is a lot of invitational tournaments, free two game matches and team matches between different countries etc. I don't mind paying for participating in a good tournament, but I can understand those who only want to play for free.

> Most people don't get invited to play for the national team

In my experience, the key to get invited to matches and tournaments on ICCF is to be in regular contact with your country's delegate and let him know of your interest. When a friendly team match is organized the countries try to match the strength of the two teams. This means that if one country has a player rated 1600, the other country normally invites a player of similar strength to play in the match (hence the name "friendly"). This means that you don't need to be one of the strongest players in your country to participate in a friendly team match.
There are also invitational tournaments on ICCF. You just have to keep your eyes open and let your delegate know that you are interested in such tournaments. You can also check the web sites of the different ICCF federations, especially the most active ones, like Germany. If you see a tournament you would like to play in, contact your delegate and he will make the necessary arrangements.
If you decide to participate in the preliminaries of the World Championship, European Championship etc. and your results are good (1st-3rd place) then you will get a free entry to the next stage in the competition.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 09:22
Did you play here on rybkaforum as well?
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2018-04-02 09:56
Only a couple of games.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 13:18 Edited 2018-04-02 13:21
I'm just talking about the entry-level experience. All those options you mention aren't available to the average new player, simply because they most probably won't be aware of them.

As the servers are presented to the new users (out-of-the-box, so to speak) the differences are clear:

- FICGS, free without any apparent restriction (played up to 20 games concurrently at some point), but with very unreliable opposition (two defaults already, with three or more to follow).
- LSS, free with a 10 games limit, but the most serious opposition from the start (not a single game won by default).
- ICCF, payed service with a "trial period" of 8 free games. As a showcase, this a failed model IMO; it takes very long to get the games running, there's a 50% rate (!) of "pseudo-players" and the server wasn't even always online.

I've payed to play before, either for fun or to fight for the money prizes, but in 2018 correspondence chess, I don't think there's any money to be had, and looking at the entry level paid events you can play at ICCF, not much fun either. For example, a tournament equivalent to those I could play, is being comfortably lead by the only serious opponent I've had over there. He wasn't particularly good, so I can only surmise that the opposition you face in the Open Rounds (in the EU's case), is equally disappointing.

What's a "pseudo-player"? One that doesn't really play. In this case, out of four opponents, one of them has only played one move per board, in over a month (1. Nh3 with white, to make things better) and another placed the Queen in a square where a Bishop could pin her in both games, with a one minute difference (I guess he felt that was funny).

In any case, thank you for trying, but my interest in  correspondence chess was exploratory and has already been met. I appreciate you were trying to give me pointers as to how to proceed, but I' almost done: most of the games are finished (or nearly) and I will be finishing the majority of the remaining ones before summer. The others, where my opponent has lagged severely without forfeiting, will end with either them finally losing on time, or with me resigning them.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-04-02 14:24

> All those options you mention aren't available to the average new player, simply because they most probably won't be aware of them.

Indeed! I mean, I've been in the ICCF since 2012 or something, and I wasn't contacted to play friendly matches until 2017, so on all that time ICCF didn't offer anything (other than email invitations to play in their pay to play tournaments, of course.)

The main appeal of being in the country's team is playing against international opponents from all over the world, until you realize you can get instant gratification about that in a place like FICGS...
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-04-02 14:19

> The main reason is that the strongest players are on ICCF, it is well organized and that's where all the strongest players from my country play.

I managed to jump-start at FICGS and LSS by showing them my rating from ICCF, so I could instantly play people of my rating in those places without having to start at the bottom. This resulted in me being able to play people of the same rating at the three places and compare.

ICCF's ratings seemed very inflated, like, a 2300 ICCF playing like a 2150 at LSS or something. ICCF players seem wekaer (specially those that are supposed to give me trouble), LSS players seem stronger (I'm having trouble against some with lower rating), FICGS seems about right.

I wonder what is causing this, if ICCF is supposed to carry the world's strongest players.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 15:24
Indeed there are a lot ICCF-GM's having gained their titles/ELO in early 200x-computer-age (=engine-assisted, most likely over a lot unassisted opponents*...), but not have shown any impressive games in recent years... (*and these games are actually a real danger for any serious database)
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 16:03
But any serious database will have adjusted accordingly, so... where's the danger?
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 20:02
True, with your ambition and skill-set yes. People like me just have that games, even dated 2014 because i became very corrlazy, plus a few lines of own analysis... so nothing too serious. Still i have the caissaheart to [be] challenge[d by] everyone! :smile:
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 09:39
A working link for those with no FICGS-account:

Btw., interesting choice 2.Nc3. :grin:
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 12:17
More interesting yet, the advantage I have now (+0.80 and rising).
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 12:39
Always told you there are still some rarely-explored sidelines worth a new analysis in '18... those who simply ponder out moves into Marshall-attack can't be helped... even Lyudy can't help there. :twisted:
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 13:23 Edited 2018-04-02 13:36
He's very busy right now to bother with that, the admins over at talkchess deleted his most recent thread and he's in full meltdown mode.:eek:

Edit: moderation had time to cleanse the thread of the most offensive material (where's the fun in that) and banned him for a week (ditto).
Parent - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 15:26

> where's the fun in that

I agree, as talkchess isn't even listed with Google (maybe Lyudy is the reason for that?!), there at least should be some fun... just posting in technically-correct H.G.Muller-style won't do it.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2018-04-02 14:14

> . You may be among those serious player with self control, who don't need an external limit to be imposed upon them

Nah, I actually lack self control and started way too many games back in October, so at some point I was indeed about to lose several games on time, but managed to save them before it was too late. It was hell, but knowing it, I don't think I'll be in such situations again, and I learned my limits.

What's the problem with your link anyway? People playing so many games that they don't have time to play in new ones they started so their time is starting to run out? But that's why the 40 days/10 moves limit is there, so you can let your clock run down to 1 remaining day, then play all your 10 moves in that time frame, you don't need an extra limit.

What the LSS achieved is making me lose interest to play on their server due to their limit. I guess once I can play 20 games simultaneously, I'll actually play 0, choosing to play in a place that allowed me as much as I wanted from the start.
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 14:20
Anton provided another link, but bottom line: only 6 games under way (out of 21 started 30 days ago). I would prefer if such tournaments were never "played".
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 15:28
Hey, you have a serious chance winning your first tournament, and you still complain? :twisted:

Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 15:59
Of course, because my goal isn't to win (in fact, draws gather more meaningful data, which is why I'm playing at reduced strength). A couple tournaments more, like this one, and I might need to wait a few more months to reach my goal of, at least, 30 games.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 20:08
Letting a good move in book is -regarding nonserious games- always a good strategy which i follow myself, but i never saw sense in playing "weak" opponents or at least ones which i haven't an open bill with... :twisted:
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-02 20:22
To get a clear picture of the playing field, you need strong, weak and middle-strength players. I've already met the GMs, at Freestyle, so it was time to see the rest of them in action.
Parent - - By Antares (****) Date 2018-04-02 20:44
I see... to me "weak" regarding corr-chess in '18 is simply the same as resource-lazy or too-human-bound (guys who don't use engines or drastically overrule engine-suggestions because they think they know it better... yes, Lyudy seems to also qualify for that group), as noone who plays solid opening-lines and let's Stockfish down d60 can be considered really weak... sadly.

A personal friend of mine, who can be considered ELO ~18xx and has never even played a corr-game, challenged me ~'16 to two [1W/1B] games "letting one engine run over night on his workstation", and while it was easy to gain quickly a small yet drawish advantage for Black vs. exchange-Ruy, it was really much blood/sweat/caissafortune needed to tweak out a positional White-win... so resources already can lift a pure beginner way above "weak" (ok, or i simply played nearly too weak :wink:)
Parent - - By Ozymandias (****) Date 2018-04-03 05:49
A priori ideas aside, I prefer to let the games speak for themselves. Categories seem clear to me too, but that doesn't really matter, because at a given time, someone from a lower classification can still play a good game. Likewise, someone from the "correct engine usage" group, can lose simply because of a bad opening choice.
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly Vs. Mark Eldridge N (Not A Last Game) 1/2-1/2
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