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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Water Cooling v Air Cooling
- - By Kemuri (**) Date 2012-07-04 08:00
Hi folks,

I'm looking to build a new system in the coming weeks, which would be used heavily for chess.

I know good cooling is v.important, so what are the pros and cons of both methods and what do people recommend?

Cheers,
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2012-07-04 09:11
Water cooling is the way to go.

From Phill Harris from this thread

Not misleading at all. You must remember that water is roughly 25 times more thermally conductive than air, as well as having a 4 times higher specific heat capacity than air. This makes it substantially more efficient at removing heat from a CPU block. You also ignore the fact that with an air cooler the heat is actually radiated inside the case and relies on case fans to remove it, which will never be even close to 100% efficient. With water cooling the radiator is placed on the perimeter or even outside the case, allowing the heat to be directed straight out, this has a massive effect on thermal efficiency. This means that the efficiency improves with a greater heat load, as the re-circulation of radiated heat is not a significant factor with water cooling.

The best example I can suggest is that if you wanted to cool a bar of metal at 100c you could wave it about in the air as much as you like, but you would never cool it as quickly as sticking it in a bucket of water, even if the air and water were at the same temperature.

As for noise, a well designed water cooling system can be much quieter than any air cooler at the same load. This is because you can use more fans at a lower speed to move the same volume of air. One fan at 2000rpm produces more audible noise than 3 fans at 1000rpm, but moves less air.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2012-07-04 19:28
Those are the pros.  What are the cons?

My only question is whether water cooled systems are robust enough to handle 100% load around the clock for years without having some kind of breakdown or elaborate regular maintenance.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2012-07-05 01:22
If cooling Matters I feel for chess Water Cooling is best. Its not a load to System too.
Radiator is outside hence easy to clear Dust. No Idea About Durability. May be less than air coolers.
But they are great performers. Corsair Kits are good. Specially the H100.
Parent - By Vegan (****) Date 2012-07-05 01:57
I prefer to stick to air. Safer in the long run.
Better to spend the money on a better CPU when a new model comes to market.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2012-07-05 02:16
One expert on this board has said that the H100 is a questionable cooler. Does anyone have a different cooler to recommend for a system I'm having built? (I'm getting tired of waiting for the Eisberg coolers.)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2012-07-05 09:22
I didn't find anything Like that here :confused:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 13:16 Edited 2012-07-05 13:45
Sorry! The devil is in the details. The difference lies in the temps you get when you overclock. I seriously doubt there would be any real comparison to a custom setup.

[edit]

Case in point. Prime95 will issue temps besides the fluxuating jumps in temps-  15c over normal o/c. My highlighting would indicate the "overnormal"  I would suggest that this dude is o/c ing normally at around 60 - 65c - in a custom cooling build he would be seeing temps at 43-47. That would be my guess. Of course this is just an educated guess.

i7 2600K @ 4.8GHz (1.415v)
H100 CPU cooler (Push/Pull configuration with 4x Enermax Magma 120mm's)
Asus Maximus IV Extreme P67
Mushkin Redline @ 1600MHz 7-9-8-24
EVGA GTX 570 (soon to be SLI)
Corsair AX1200 PSU
Corsair Obsidian 800D case

I downloaded CPU-Z, Prime95, HWMonitor, and Realtemp to test the stability of this overclock for 12 hours straight in Prime95 with no stability issues. My highest core temp reached a maximum of 77c but only for a split second and averaged mid 70's (74-75) for almost the entire time. The first core averaged high 60's (67-68), second and fourth cores averaged low 70's (71-73 max) and CPU temp was 64c pretty much the entire time according to HWMonitor.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2012-07-06 00:19 Edited 2012-07-06 00:24
AP,
You are undoubtedly right that a custom cooling solution is the best. I should have clarified my post to indicate that I cannot do a custom cooling system. Therefore, I am looking only for a self-enclosed kit.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-06 00:36 Edited 2012-07-06 00:39
I would say that it depends on what processor you are running -some run hotter than others.

On my i7-930 I have installed a Cooler Master V8 and have been running it for the past 2 years without a problem.

When I did overclocked at 4.1 -I  think I was running temps  at about 65-70c. Not great but acceptable.

With a higher end chip you need something that is going to do a lot more cooling, especially if you o/c. With an x3930k -I wouldn't go with an enclosed system.

p.s

It gets hot.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2012-07-14 19:41
AP, since the Eisberg coolers seem to have disappeared down the rabbit hole, I have to find an alternative cooler within the next two weeks to have my system built in time for ICCF Candidates.
   My only other thought is this one:

7/13/12
http://www.techpowerup.com/166822/Swiftech-Launches-the-Apogee-Drive-II-CPU-Water-Block-with-Integrated-Pump.html

http://www.swiftech.com/apogeedrive2.aspx

   "Best thermal performance: the Apogee™ Drive II manages to achieve better thermal performance than the award-winning Apogee™ HD.    Best hydraulic performance: thanks to the integrated, PWM controlled MCP35X pump, which has established itself as the best-in-class pump on the market, the Apogee™ Drive II is the world's only waterblock that can be considered as a flow enhancing device, as opposed to a flow-robbing device.
    Best retention mechanism: proven time and again to satisfy beginners and hard-core enthusiasts alike for its ease of use, reliability, and repeatable results.
    Compact form factor enables liquid cooling in space constrained  applications.
    Adjustable G1/4 inlet and outlet ports, compatible with all compression fittings."

What do you think of this one?
What other parts do I need to order for the cooling system (radiator, etc.?)
  Would putting together such a system be viable for the reasonably capable tech building my system?

                            Thanks, as always, for your expertise,
                                           CMA
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 20:33 Edited 2012-07-14 21:14
It is different from the usually waterblock -that's for sure. The Integrated Pump is really the innovation here. Without considering its functionality and durability- you still need -

all costs approximate-
reservoir -$35- $50
tubing -$29
Fitings - $15-
depending on whether you go with compression or clamp- I went with compression-$60

you might need a 45degree compression fitting for the pump (maybe?) $17 per fitting. otherwise - you  could go with Bar Fittings at $2.50 to 3.50 a pop. per fitting for decent fittings. you only need about 6 of them.

Radiator - $49- $120 -that is a matter of preference and the type of cpu you are running I chose a triple 120 fan radiatior for the 3930.

Bear minium around perhaps without compression.  $320.

I would check prices here -at least you won't be taxed to death.

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/

I also did business here

http://www.dangerden.com/

Also- if you have "any questions" email Gary at sidewinder he has had experience building. I would even query him about the apogee drive ii.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 20:49
For coolant I went with Phil Harris' suggestion -

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/11744/ex-liq-154/IandH_Dead-Water_Copper_Sulfate_Biocidal_PC_Coolant_Additive.html

IandH Dead-Water Copper Sulfate Biocidal PC Coolant Additive to distilled water.

Only thing I bought from Frozencpu they will tax the crap out of you!
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 20:55
You might want to Google and find others on line who are using this system and see what they are reporting-or you may end up being one of the first of a few giving others an  account of this products preformance. :eek:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 21:09
Don't forget Artic Silver 5

http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2012-07-16 00:14
AP, thanks for the valuable input on cooling solutions. I have copied all of this and will study it for my next move.
              CMA
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-16 04:50
There are a number of things I intend to do differently when the season is over. I've made a few design errors in putting the radiator on the inside top of the case - sometime in the spring I plan on moving it out side of the case. I haven't decided where - Either in the back using a radbox, or  if possible, outside on top of the case.

Once you know what goes into the build you will have no problem researching and figuring out what is best for yourself.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-18 23:43 Edited 2012-07-18 23:45
I might be doing one last upgrade to my 1366 socket P6x58D that now holds an i7-930 and put an Intel Core i7-990X Extreme Edition Gulftown 3.46GHz. On Ebay they are going for $800. Just something to think about if you already have a LGA 1366 mobo.

Probably leave that air cooled.
Parent - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2012-07-06 08:46
I would not write off a custom setup.  My water cooling system conducts the waste heat outdoors, that makes it much easier and cheaper to cool my computer room in the summer.  I have a big tank of water outdoors and some coiled copper tubing in it that the plastic tubing fits using cheap zip ties.  There is a small reservoir that I made from a water bottle, the pump, and the water block itself...it does not cost that much and the performance is probably quite a bit better than those all-in-one things.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 21:18
If you do go in this direction, do yourself a small favor and buy a few extra "0"  rings they are about 10 cents a piece.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2012-07-05 05:40
Water-cooling would be a fine addition to a Rybka chess engine and an Aquarium interface for it to swim around in. :)

My desktop died after I reapplied grease to the cpu. Have no idea what happened. How much is a Q6600 these days?
Parent - - By Testo (**) Date 2012-07-05 15:46
Hello Nelson,
I can answer their doubt with 100% yes !
a water-cooling is the perfect cooling and it is absolutely reliable.
The last time I use an air cooler has been-five years ago.that means I have been using 5 years, only water cooling.
I have in this  5 years, never even 1 problem found.
the only thing I'm doing-change the water once a year.its only 30 minutes work !!!
last year here in Germany we had a few days to 35C.my i7 980X @4,2Ghz never got more than 57 temperature (on the hottest core)

a water cooling need not be expensive.
Never buy a ready-made system !!!
always buy all the parts separately and build yourself a system !!

for little money they get a perfect cooling.

Best Regards
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 21:41
OK, that sounds good, but now the trick is water cooling for a quad-socket machine. I don't know if you could fit all that stuff in a standard server case.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 22:05 Edited 2012-07-05 22:07
Sure! For a gentleman of your means- I'd recommend...



Actually , you could do better by building your own system.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 22:37
At first I thought I was looking at an accordion.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 22:44

> an accordion.


getting a transfusion! :smile:
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) Date 2012-07-06 00:05
:lol:
Parent - By BigBen (****) Date 2012-07-06 06:54

>OK, that sounds good, but now the trick is water cooling for a quad-socket machine. I don't know if you could fit all that stuff in a standard server case


Very true and that is one reason I dont use cases in my comp room with my own OCed machines :lol:

Regards
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 16:48 Edited 2012-07-05 16:51
I can tell you that I've had a Corsair enclosed system fail! Still have the replacement unopened in the backroom. Never go back to one of those again. The only failure  now I might be looking at is the DD12V-D5 Pump Variable Speed by Laing and that I think is unlikely.
Parent - - By Testo (**) Date 2012-07-05 17:23
Now I can tell you this Corsair water cooling is a pile of scrap !
that's why I always say : Never buy a ready-made system !

by the way:
the DD12V-D5 Pump is a little noisy and it bothered me.
my recommendation: 
EK Water Blocks EK-DCP 2.2 or EK Water Blocks EK-DCP 4.0

The EK Water Blocks EK-DCP 2.2 is the best price-performance ratio, you can find.
I have this pump for 2 years and it is the best I've ever had !

trust me-laing pumps are not always the best:wink:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 17:33
Actually, it is a DengerDen -with a variable speed by lang. Whether that means the pump is designed and manufactured by DangerDen  or manufactured by lang is unknown to me. But , one thing it is -is silent! :smile:
Parent - By Testo (**) Date 2012-07-05 18:02
:lol:

DD-CPX-Pro 12V Pump by Danger Den and EK Water Blocks EK-DCP 4.0 are almost the same.

Danger Den here in europe is not as well known.
Therefore,  "EC" has adopted the model.

Danger Den-EK and Phobya are the same :wink:
Parent - - By Chaotic Chess (****) Date 2012-07-16 08:51
Is Corsair water cooling kit not advisable setup? I'm planning to buy H100.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2012-07-16 16:37 Edited 2012-07-16 16:40
That is a preferential call. I wouldn't! I decided on a custom build.

P.S

Had a Corsair cooling system-it failed on me-won't give it another go.
Parent - By BigBen (****) Date 2012-07-05 07:48

>I know good cooling is v.important, so what are the pros and cons of both methods and what do people recommend?


TBH the main reason (there are others) to go for water cooling is to get a better overclock

>My only question is whether water cooled systems are robust enough to handle 100% load around the clock for years without having some kind of breakdown or elaborate >regular maintenance.


The simple answer is yes they are totally reliable in my experience. Maintenance like air cooled will be to do with dust removal

>I prefer to stick to air. Safer in the long run


Not in my experience, I have seen more systems fail that are air cooled, that said by far computers tend to be air cooled so I would expect more air cooled comps to fail.

Personally I do not like any of the pre built WC units you get from companys such as corsair, simply get a good water block, pump,radiator and a decent sized reservoir and do it yourself. In the future if you change motherboards you may have to replace the waterblock as the mounting holes may not line up.

Regards
Parent - By Pia (****) Date 2012-07-07 09:32 Edited 2012-07-07 09:34
Water cooling may be too expensive. (?)
Air cooling may make too much noise and destroy your computer in the long run.
Me suggests you a PC w/o cooling.
I run such a system with AMD 586. When HDD stops, there's no sound from PC at all...

Chessmaster engine playing uninterrupted for a week and in complete silence...
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