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- - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-18 18:06
Hi every one ,,,,,,, i would like to ask if any one have information about rybka clones ? is any of these ( Critter, Houdini , Stockfish , Strelka , IvanHoe , or any other ) is a clone of rybka ? thanks .
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2012-06-18 18:53 Edited 2012-06-18 18:58
Not Critter/Stockfish/Komodo/Naum/Shredder/Fritz/Junior/vast majority of other engines.

I believe Strelka 2.0 was a clone of Rybka 1.0b, no idea what later Strelka versions are like.

Ippolit/Robbolito (or at least their original versions) are considered by many to be Rybka 3 clones. Ivanhoe branched off from them, but has had many versions since. With Houdini it is similar; Its earliest versions were very Robo-like, but now it is so much stronger than Robo I wonder if any commonalities remain.
Parent - - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-18 19:45
https://sites.google.com/site/code404html/similarity-tester-version-3

Strelka 1.0 Beta similarity to Rybka 1.0 Beta is 84.75%, Naum 3 similarity to Rybka 1.2 is 85.13%
If Naum isn't clone then at least he was tuned to play Rybka moves. After Strelka SRC became public...
Parent - - By Weirwindle (***) Date 2012-06-18 19:50
There was also another clone that was a near sister to Strelka called Belka.
Parent - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-18 19:55
Yup,  98.39% similarity.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2012-06-19 01:06
Rybka 1.2? Are you sure?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2012-06-19 02:32
Yeah, Naum similarity to Rybka is well known. If Naum is considered original then it just shows that these tests are weak in showing ultimate proof of cloning.
Parent - - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-19 04:01

>Rybka 1.2? Are you sure?


Pia positive. Naum 3 is a Rybka 1.2 clone in 85 out of 100 parallel universes
or Naum 3 is a Rybka 2.1 clone in 83 or 84 out of 100 parallel universes.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2012-06-19 05:56
It doesn't work like that. Either it's a clone or it isn't. Your estimated chances rely on unknown information, if you had more information you'd know it's either 0% or 100%.

It's like if you play a game in where you try to guess every time if I'll flip a coin to head or tails, and you estimate your chances to be 50% chance at all times, and that 50 parallel universes will have you winning while the other 50 will have you losing. However, it turns out my coin had heads on both sides, in all parallel universes the coin comes up heads. If I told you this information, then all parallel universes would have you guessing heads and winning.

Alex Naumov, Naum's programmer, knows if it's a clone or not, and that'll be the truth in all universes (all of them with it being a clone or not.) His coin is either head/head (clone in all universes) or tail/tail (innocent of being clone in all universes.), it's just that you don't know.
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-06-19 06:46
with the same reasoning,you dont know if vas copied code or not,because even if no one was able to show enough proof of it,vas is the only who knows the ''truth'' (answer) :wink:
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2012-06-19 07:52
Rybka 1.2, or 2.1? Aren't these the pre-1.0b releases? How would Naum copy those? Or are they similar to Naum due to Crafty similarity?
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2012-06-19 07:55
No. 1.2f (or was it n?) was the last public version of the Rybka 1 line, 2.1 was the first single-core Rybka 2.
Parent - - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-19 03:15
  Similarity tester version 3

is there any other software  ,,,, with gui ?
Parent - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-19 03:36
I don't know of any
Parent - - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-18 19:59
what about Fire 2.2 x? and is there a chance for the clones to be stronger than the original ?
Parent - - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-18 20:19
It is so

sim version 3
------ Fire 2.2 xTreme w32 (depth: 2, scale: 1.0) ------
93.58  Fire 1.5 xTreme w32 (depth: 2, scale: 1.0)
93.29  IvanHoe 9.47b w32 (depth: 2, scale: 1.0)
Parent - - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-18 20:27
English please ........

thanks
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-06-18 20:50
pia wrote his message in English
Parent - - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-19 02:47
i got later , thanks for him , and you :wink:
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-06-19 02:51
you are wellcome noor :smile:
Parent - By Pia (****) Date 2012-06-18 20:51
Ahem... it is so, Fire's an Ippo-Robbo-Ivan-the-hoe-et-cetera clone and it's stronger.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2012-06-19 01:21

>what about Fire 2.2 x?


Yes Fire was one of the original group that came after Ippolit/Robbolito.

Not sure about its versions, maybe 2.2 is many versions since then I have no idea.

>and is there a chance for the clones to be stronger than the original ?


Absolutely. Although the term "derivative" might be more accurate, or just more politically correct :-P

This is where things get rather contentious though. If a closed source commercial program is reverse engineered, then had a few small changes made to it netting a 200 elo increase (resulting in very different moves), is it still "ripping off" that first engine authors work?

If another engine author does the same, but gives it a complete code overhaul and nets only 30 elo (resulting in many similar moves) will that author be considered more, or less guilty? At what point do we "forgive" an author for starting out with someone else's code? Immediately, after many versions and strength increases (how many?), or never?

How certain can we really be that a given engine is a clone, or close derivative given so many commonalities with what chess engines do? Where do ideas end and code begin? Do some ideas really feature many possible implementations, or are there very few or even one for some?

Even if all of this is decided and rules are formed, how realistic is it to enforce them?
Parent - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-19 03:09
thank you Labyrinth
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2012-06-18 20:32
Why do you ask?
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-06-18 20:53
i suposse that he asks to know what we think about it at out forum

but is a waste of time his question:whatever will be the answer,we will have 2 sides,and we wont arrive to a common answer
Parent - - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-19 02:55
i suposse that he asks to know what we think about it at out forum
no
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-06-19 03:00
well,if you ask just for the pleasure of the knowledge,weelcome all your questions :smile:
Parent - By noor (*) Date 2012-06-19 02:54
Love of knowledge
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