Not logged inRybka Chess Community Forum
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / How to interpret long engine output line?
- - By Dragon Knight (*) Date 2012-04-12 15:09
I played following lines as a white yesterday with human opponent, and lost by silly mistake in end-game, but, I could have drawn.

1. d4 b6 2. d5 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e4 Bb4 5. Bg5 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 h6 7. Bxf6 Qxf6
8. Ne2 Bb7 9. c4 O-O 10. Qd4 Qg6 11. Ng3 Na6 12. Bd3 Nc5 13. O-O ...

I tried to trade equal as far as possible.
Can anyone teach me positional analysis of above line by good chess engine?
I just wanna know is there any opening mistake in above line for white?
How can I interpret engine output - long line (Tarrasch kibitz mode)?

Thanks
Parent - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-12 15:50 Edited 2012-04-12 16:16
DK,

I am gonna try to help you.   I have uploaded 2 images of my computer program Shredder doing the analysis so this way you can better see what I am talking about.

There is one image where the chess pieces are on the starting position.   Let's start with that.  The analysis window is on the right side.  We see  1.  d4b6 +0.43, just below that it says 1...Nf6 +0.01, so what that means is that the computer thinks that a black response of Nf6 on the first move instead of b6 maybe better for black by about 0.4 (now please remember, at this very early stage, these numbers are somewhat subjective, there are different good answers to d4, but let's not worry about that, I am just trying to teach you how to interpret the computer output).

Now your second move d5 gets a score of -0.09, just below d5, it says 2.e4  +0.49, so here the computer thinks that e4 is a better move than what you made by about 0.58 pawns and I would say your second move was probably therefore a little inaccurate.  

Now let's go to the second picture where the final position is shown.   Again on the analysis board, move 5. Bg5 -0.34 whereas below it is the computer suggested 5. dxe6 +0.06, so here the computer thinks that your 5th move was inaccurate by around 0.4 pawns (which is to be honest with you not that much and my human interpretation is that your 5th move was probably ok).   Then the rest of your game moves follows and as you can see computer's analysis did not find any fault with either side, black or white for the rest of the game. 

This is from Shredder, as I said you can download it for a month for free, no obligations and if you like it, then you can purchase it.   So you can get the same thing and do the same thing.    Otherwise, as I told you before, you can go move by move in Tarrasch GUI and whenever you see a big change in the evaluation, that's when you can tell a wrong move was made and you can see what the computer's suggested move is.

On Tarrasch, you ask what does a long line mean?   The long line is what computer believes is the best move, best reply to that move, best reply to the reply, etc, etc.   In other words, the long line is the computer generated "variation" of what would be the best moves to follow, if a certain move is initially chosen.   If you change that move, then you'll get a different long line, a "different variation".   That gives you a chance to play through different possible moves in one position, that's called "analysis".  

Good luck.
Attachment: DKanalysis1.jpg (171k)
Parent - By Pia (***) [ru] Date 2012-04-12 16:38
Sure :grin:

Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-12 16:48
DK,  let me give you one final example, it's an extreme one but it will help you more understand the engine's output.   In the picture you have the final position of the Scholar's mate.  On move 3 for black, b6, computer indicates +M1, that means that the black move led to a mate in one position in favor of white.   Below it computer says 3...g6 -0.53 meaning that black should have played g6 resulting in a position with a slight advantage for black.
Parent - - By Dragon Knight (*) Date 2012-04-12 21:04 Edited 2012-04-12 21:19
Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D

Thanks for help and very informative reply with pics.
Shredder GUI seems nice with more functions. I gonna try soon.

[quote]
Now your second move d5 gets a score of -0.09, just below d5, it says 2.e4  +0.49, so here the computer thinks that e4 is a better move than what you made by about 0.58 pawns.
[/quote]
I played 2. d5 instead of 2. e4 (traditional and which was in mind as well) to secure square d5 by removing opponent possibility of playing d7-d5 against 2. e4

[quote]
Again on the analysis board, move 5. Bg5 -0.34 whereas below it is the computer suggested 5. dxe6 +0.06, so here the computer thinks that your 5th move was inaccurate by around 0.4 pawns (which is to be honest with you not that much and my human interpretation is that your 5th move was probably ok).
[/quote]
Idea of playing 5. Bg5 was to remove threat on squares d4 and e4 by Black's Night, while 5. dxe6 might have left queens open facing each other or might have open f-file and given Black more control over f-file after castling.

[quote[
Then the rest of your game moves follows and as you can see computer's analysis did not find any fault with either side, black or white for the rest of the game.
[/quote]
Thanks.
I figured out my mistake of wrong trade in end-game cost me to loose, otherwise I could have drawn.
Oherwise opening line 1. d4 b6 2. d5 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e4 Bb4 5. Bg5 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 h6 7. Bxf6 Qxf6 8. Ne2 Bb7 9. c4 O-O 10. Qd4 Qg6 11. Ng3 Na6 12. Bd3 Nc5 13. O-O ...
is equal for the both as you said before, I would rather say it again, it is drawish. I guess Chess engine follows certain pre-defined sets of rules per the book, I follow  my brain! :lol: Chess is The Game of trillions possibilities, anything is possible.

On the bottom windows of the pic you posted says like....
16/34 0:01 +0.43 1 .. b6 2. e4 Bb7 3. Nc3 Nf6
What is 16/34 0:01 +0.43?
[quote]
as you said "+0.43, just below that it says 1...Nf6 +0.01, so what that means is that the computer thinks that a black response of Nf6 on the first move instead of b6 maybe better for black by about 0.4 (now please remember, at this very early stage, these numbers are somewhat subjective."
[/quote]
So +x.xx (+) sign means gain to white and (-) means loss to white (gain to black)?

I like your extreme example of Scholar's Mate, it is possible.

Thanks,
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-12 21:46 Edited 2012-04-12 21:49
DK,

minus sign, for instance -1.3, means that in that particular position, black is ahead by 1.3 pawns.   If you don't see the minus sign, or you see a + sign, then it means that white is ahead in that position.      When you see a big change in that number from one move to another move, it means that someone has blundered.   When you see the number becoming more and more negative, it means that black is getting the upper hand, when you see the number becoming more and more positive (let's say on move 28, the evaluation was 3 and on move 29 it was 4 and on move 30 it became 6.2), it means that white has a decisive advantage and should be able to win the game.   This is very IMPORTANT for you to know, that's how you can analyze your own games. 

16/34 refers to how deep the computer has looked into that particular position.   16 means the computer has looked 16 plies deep (each ply is when you or your opponent make one move, so ply is basically a half move) into every possible variation, and 34 means that in certain more important lines, the computer has actually looked as far as 34 moves deep.   0:01 means the amount of time that the computer has taken to look at that position.    The more time the computer has to analyze, the deeper it can look into a position (you can adjust that time to as little or as much as you like, there are guys here who let the computer analyze one position for 24 hours).    Anyways this is NOT that important for you to know as far as analyzing your games with your friends are concerned. 

Hope this was of some help.  Now I'd like to ask you some things:  where are you from?  where do you play your chess?
and finally do you now know how to analyze your own games?

Enjoy your chess.
Parent - By Dragon Knight (*) Date 2012-04-12 22:36
Thanks again,

Where are you from? - St. Laurent - Montreal (Canada).
where do you play your chess? - Mostly with friends who know chess better than me, I mean stronger either at my place, or their place, a coffee shop (permanent place) and in summer on LakeShore beaches with beers and foods! :lol:
I ususally play 2-to-4 games per week, but do more post-analysis. Some time we start a game with certain initial positions with alternate turns.

Your replies are informative and helpful.
Tks,
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-04-13 00:54
Wow, how do you run MultiPV on that?
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 01:12
Hi Uly,

teach me, what am I doing wrong?   If I want to see a second choice by the engine for a position, I press F6 and it starts analyzing a second line.    My main concern is to see where I went wrong in my games you know, if there was a better defense in a cramped position, etc.  

Are you talking about engine giving me 3 or 4 different lines?   How do you do it with Shredder?   Teach me, I'd like to learn.   Thanks.
Parent - - By Dragon Knight (*) Date 2012-04-13 01:29
How I can install other chess engine like Houdini 1.5 or Rybka 2.3.2a in shredder or Tarrasch (Tarrasch has Rybka buil-in)?
coz It poped-up black window, when I double clicked exe. i do no know where did it go - i mean installed, but Tarrasch does not show houdini 1.5.
Parent - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 03:08
DK,

I'll teach you how to do it in Shredder (I don't know if Tarrasch allows you to add more engines, you'll have to go to the webpage and read about it yourself). 

By the way, getting that "black window" is normal.  You don't need to double click on the .exe file.    Clicking on the engine itself won't change anything, the engine has to be inside the correct interface or environment (such as Shredder, Tarrasch, Aquarium, etc) for it to work. 

Here is how you do it:  on Shredder, on the top panel, click "extras", then "engines", then "install engine', on the next screen click "ok" (where it asks about uci engine), on the next screen click on the small blank square on the right and that will take you to your files where the Houdini 1.5 exe file is,  so once you find your file in your computer, you click on it, click "open" and that should install the engine.  

Once that's done, you go to the main Shredder screen, just BELOW the chess board is the name of the current engine, let's say Rybka, you click on that and it gives you the screen "change engine", click on the new engine (let's say Houdini) that you want from the list, click "load" and you are ready to go with your new engine.
Parent - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 03:16
DK,

you can load more engines in Tarrasch too.   Go to the website please and read the FAQ page, the information is right there, please read it.
Parent - - By kgburcham (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 01:52 Edited 2012-04-13 01:55
Hi Uly,
teach me, what am I doing wrong?   If I want to see a second choice by the engine for a position, I press F6 and it starts analyzing a second line.  
My main concern is to see where I went wrong in my games you know, if there was a better defense in a cramped position, etc.  
Are you talking about engine giving me 3 or 4 different lines?   How do you do it with Shredder?   Teach me, I'd like to learn.  
Thanks.


Not sure if you are kidding or not?
If not then right click in the engine window and select "analyse more moves".

This is from the start position:
24   1:25   +0.20   1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bd3 O-O (2.406.930.359) 28249
24   1:25   +0.15   1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e3 b5 6.a4 b4 (2.406.930.359) 28249
24   1:25   +0.15   1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.e3 b5 6.a4 b4 (2.406.930.359) 28249
24   1:25   +0.10   1.Nc3 e5 2.e4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Be2 Bb4 5.O-O Bxc3 6.dxc3 O-O (2.406.930.359) 28249
24   1:25   +0.10   1.e3 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 c5 5.d4 a6 6.cxd5 exd5 (2.406.930.359) 28249
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-13 02:02 Edited 2012-04-13 02:07
Or Aquarium- (had to put a plug in for Aquarium :smile:)

[-0.85]  d=21  1...Rfe8 2.Rg3 Qxf2+ 3.Rxf2 Bb7 4.Nf4 Nxf4 5.Rxf4 Kh7 6.Be2 c5 7.Ra3 Ra8 8.Re3 Re6 9.Bd3 Rae8 10.h4 Re5 11.g3 d5 12.cxd5 Bxd5 13.a4 c4 14.Bf1 (0:00:30) 64443kN
[-0.85]  d=21  1...Qxf2+ 2.Rxf2 Rfe8 3.Rg3 Bb7 4.Nf4 Nxf4 5.Rxf4 Kh7 6.Be2 c5 7.Ra3 Ra8 8.Re3 Re6 9.Bd3 Rae8 10.h4 Re5 11.g3 d5 12.cxd5 Bxd5 13.a4 c4 14.Bf1 (0:00:30) 64443kN
[-0.78]  d=21  1...Rc8 2.Rg3 Rce8 3.Re1 Qxf2+ 4.Kxf2 (0:00:35) 76543kN
[-0.67]  d=21  1...Rde8 2.Qxc5 Nxc5 3.Nd4 Bc8 4.Rh4 Bd7 5.Re1 Na4 6.Re3 Re5 7.Nf3 Re6 8.Rf4 Rfe8 9.Be2 Nc5 10.Bd3 Rb8 11.Re1 Rc8 12.Rd1 Ree8 13.h3 a5 14.Ng5 (0:00:35) 76543kN
[-0.55]  d=21  1...Bc8 2.Re3 Rfe8 3.Nc1 Qe5 4.Rg3 Qd4 5.Re3 Nc5 6.Nb3 Qe5 7.Rg3 Kh7 8.Re1 Ne6 9.Rf1 Nc5 10.Re1 (0:00:30) 64443kN
[-0.55]  d=21  1...Rd7 2.Qxc5 Nxc5 3.Nd4 Rc7 4.Nf5 Bc8 5.Ne7+ Kh7 6.Re3 Nd7 7.Be2 Ne5 8.Rd1 Rd8 9.Nxc8 Rcxc8 10.Rh3 Kg8 11.Rg3 d5 12.exd5 cxd5 13.Bxh5 Rxc4 14.Rg5 Re4 15.h3 (0:00:32) 69077kN
[-0.50]  d=21  1...Ng5 2.Rg3 Qxf2+ 3.Rxf2 Ne6 4.Nf4 Nxf4 5.Rxf4 Rfe8 6.Bf1 Bb7 7.Ra3 Ra8 8.g3 c5 9.Bg2 Kh7 10.h4 Re5 11.Rd3 Re6 12.Ra3 Ree8 13.Rd3 Rad8 (0:00:32) 69077kN
[-0.45]  d=21  1...Ra8 2.Qxc5 Nxc5 3.Nd4 Rfc8 4.Rg3 Kf8 5.Rh3 Rc7 6.Nb3 Rd8 7.Nxc5 dxc5 (0:00:32) 69077kN
[-0.45]  d=21  1...Bb7 2.Re3 Rfe8 3.Ng3 h4 4.Ne2 Bc8 5.Nc1 Nc7 6.Nb3 Qg5 7.Nd4 Bd7 8.h3 Ne6 9.Nxe6 Bxe6 10.Rd1 Qc5 11.Ree1 Rd7 12.Be2 Qg5 13.Kh1 Qg3 (0:00:32) 69077kN
[-0.42]  d=21  1...Kh7 2.Qxc5 Nxc5 3.Nd4 Bc8 4.Re3 Bb7 5.Nf3 Rfe8 6.e5 Kg8 7.Rfe1 dxe5 8.Rxe5 Rxe5 9.Rxe5 Kf8 10.Ng5 Rd6 11.Re3 a5 12.h3 h4 13.Be2 Ne6 14.Nxe6+ Rxe6 15.Rxe6 fxe6 (0:00:35) 76543kN
[-0.30]  d=20  1...Rb8 2.Qxc5 Nxc5 3.Nd4 Rfc8 4.Be2 Rc7 5.Nf5 Nxe4 6.Ne7+ Kf8 7.Ra3 Nc5 8.Re3 Re8 9.Rd1 Bc8 10.Kf2 Rd8 11.Bf3 Bg4 12.Rde1 Bxf3 13.Kxf3 a5 (0:00:28) 59289kN
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 02:49
hey Robert,

Scid vs. PC also has it.   I don't play correspondence chess, and I am sure it's a fantastic feature, but I personally don't use it.   When I lose a game, I usually have a good idea where I f.... up, but I don't have the time during the game to go and analyze a few moves back.    Later with an engine, I take a look and see where I went wrong.    One engine variation is plenty for me most of the time, my brain definitely can't handle 3 or 4.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-13 05:25
Scid is a nice Database GUI!
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 06:35
speaking of Scid vs PC, I had a lot of problem fitting all the different windows (the main board, the tree, the notation board, engine panel) on one screen, it was just ridiculous and impossible).   Everything else worked beautifully but the damned windows.   When all else fails read the help files, and the best that I could tell, the author was saying that trying to make all the windows fit in one screen was causing a lot of bugs and problems and was just not worth it:confused:   In Shredder moving and adjusting those windows is the easiest thing in the world, same with other programs.   So I just gave up and uninstalled the whole thing.   Sometimes it's true that you get what you pay for.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-13 14:07
I ended up using Chess Assistant.
Parent - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 02:36
Hi kgburcham,

Thank you so much for your reply.  "analyze more moves" by the way is the same as the F6 button which I had mentioned.   To be honest with you, my analysis is very quick and dirty, great majority of time I only look at the engine's first choice. 

Thank you again sir for taking the time to help me.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-04-13 03:40
The way you have positioned the Analysis Panel only allows the engine to show two lines:



I suggest you to reposition the Engine Panel to the right of the screen, and resize it by dragging its borders to fit, so that you can see more than 2 MultiPV lines from an engine:



(You may need to drag and reposition other Panels around it, but if you don't use a window, you can hide it with right-click Close)
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 03:47
We'll do.   Thank you for the great suggestions Uly. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-04-13 03:54
:smile: I'm just a freak for maximum efficiency of screen usage. Oh, and there's a last tip so none of it is wasted. Right-click on the Engine Panel and tick "Continuous Display", this way, even if you're only at MultiPV=2, the full panel will be used to show you the story of analysis:

Parent - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [us] Date 2012-04-13 04:18
Nice:smile:  Thank you Uly.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / How to interpret long engine output line?

Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill