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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Test Positions / Is there a win for white in this position?
- - By ccherng (*) [us] Date 2011-11-17 06:26
Is there anyone with a super duper computer that can tell me if this is a draw or a win?

3r3r/1pkn2pp/2p1p3/4p3/1PPb1q2/5N2/P3BPPP/R3QRK1 w - -
Parent - By sockmonkey (***) [cn] Date 2011-11-17 07:01
"Too early to tell"? Komodo gives White a slight advantage (half a pawn), but it's not like this is a forcing position. Intuitively, it looks like equal chances to me, with an awful lot of play left for both sides after Rd1.
Parent - - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2011-11-17 12:59
Instead of hiring the help of a super duper computer I think it would be better to make some sort of list first of the pluses and minuses you see for each side. I am saying that because I could not see real weaknesses in the black camp. But I am a bit rusty and never a good clubplayer, so this is no substitute for doing your own homework at all. I only saw the doubled pawns on the e-line (- for black)and a majority of three pawns against two on the queenside (+ for white) but black has still pawns in the center and his pieces are better developed, including the king. That this gives a bit less safety should not be a problem if more pieces come off, to the contrary even.

Here are two testruns also, the second I hope is better because it uses a new concept of "thick" nodes :cool: I went back to the singular extensions and combined that with not doing singular extensions in the ALL node after the extended CUT node (that is hard to implement, I did try something like singular extensions for ALL nodes too)..., but instead switching of futility pruning in that node downstream. The previous node was extended, that can even be more than a ONE_PLY singular extension and in that node also futility pruning is switched of, the reductions are also switched off: I am betting that because it is a CUT node I can do that there, only if the ttmove fails to go above alpha this is invoked. Hence the "thick node" or fat node maybe, a very crude approximation of a critical position in the chessmaster's eye but hopefully evenly distributed throughout the tree and manageable by the computer. The downside is that hash space is full earlier and you just don't get that many iterations. Both versions are experimental though so it is hard to tell which is better.

Eelco

Engine: Stockfish  Kingdefender Build 084 (256 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba and J. Kiiski

1/01   0:00   +0.20    1.g3 (104) 0

2/02   0:00   +0.12    1.Rd1 Kb8 (586) 1

3/03   0:00   +0.32    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.g3 (966) 2

4/04   0:00   +0.24    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 (1.894) 5

5/05   0:00   +0.44    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 3.Bd3 (3.258) 9

6/06   0:00   +0.28    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 3.Bd3 Nd5 (4.009) 12

7/08   0:00   +0.48    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Nxd4 Qxd4 4.a3 (7.048) 20

8/13   0:00   +0.32    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Bc4 Rb2 5.Qxe6 Rxb4 (23.611) 60

9/13   0:00   +0.36    1.Rc1 Kb8 2.Rd1 Nf6 3.Bd3 Rd7 4.Nxd4 Qxd4
                       5.Bc2 Qb2 6.Rxd7 Nxd7 (45.127) 103

10/15  0:00   +0.56    1.Rd1 Nf6 2.Bd3 Rhe8 3.c5 Kb8 4.a4 e4
                       5.Nxd4 Rxd4 6.Bc2 (88.830) 162

11/16  0:00   +0.56    1.Rd1 Nf6 2.Bd3 Rhe8 3.c5 Kb8 4.a4 e4
                       5.Nxd4 Rxd4 6.Bc2 e5 (112.427) 184

12/20  0:01   +0.36    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Bc2 Bb2 4.Rb1 Bd4
                       5.b5 cxb5 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Qxe6 (327.654) 291

13/20  0:01   +0.36    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.b5 c5 3.Bd3 g6 4.Qe2 b6
                       5.Rfe1 Rhf8 6.a3 Rf7 7.Bc2 Rf6 8.Rf1 (508.322) 325

14/21  0:02   +0.60++  1.Rd1 Kb8 2.b5 c5 3.a4 Nf6 4.g3 Qe4
                       5.b6 (710.427) 347

14/21  0:02   +0.28    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rhf8
                       4.Bd3 Nf6 5.b6 Bxb6 6.Qxe5+ Qxe5
                       7.Nxe5 Bd4 8.Rfe1 Nd5 (902.226) 363

15/22  0:02   +0.36++  1.Rd1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rhf8
                       4.Bd3 Nf6 5.a3 e4 6.Nxd4 Rxd4 7.Be2 Rxd1
                       8.Qxd1 Nd5 9.Qd4 (980.487) 366

15/22  0:02   +0.44++  1.Rd1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rhf8 4.g3 Qf6
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.f4 e5 7.Bg4 (1.009.299) 369

15/25  0:03   +0.28    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Bc2 Ng4 4.c5 g6
                       5.a4 e4 6.Qxe4 Bxf2+ 7.Kh1 Be3
                       8.Qxf4+ Bxf4 (1.199.471) 380

16/25  0:03   +0.36++  1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Nxd4 Qxd4 4.c5 e4
                       5.Bc2 Qb2 6.Bb3 (1.379.182) 385

16/25  0:03   +0.40    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Nxd4 Qxd4 4.c5 e4
                       5.Bc2 Qb2 6.Bb3 Rxd1 7.Qxd1 Nd5
                       8.Qg4 Qe5 9.a3 Rf8 10.Qh4 (1.435.042) 389

17/25  0:04   +0.52++  1.Rd1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Nxd4 Qxd4
                       4.Qe2 e4 5.Bb1 (1.935.584) 402

17/25  0:06   +0.28--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.g3 Qf5 3.Nxd4 exd4 4.c5 Na4
                       5.Bc4 Nc3 6.Qxe6 Qxe6 7.Bxe6 (2.559.183) 410

17/26  0:08   +0.10--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.g3 Qf5 3.Nxd4 exd4 4.c5 Na4
                       5.Bc4 Nc3 6.Qxe6 Qxe6 7.Bxe6 Nxd1
                       8.Rxd1 Kb8 (3.740.981) 418

17/29  0:13   +0.32    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 Bc5 3.Qc3 Rxd1 4.Rxd1 Ra8
                       5.Rd2 Qf6 6.Qxe5+ Qxe5 7.Nxe5 Bd6
                       8.Nf3 Bb4 9.Rc2 h6 10.c5 Na4 11.bxc6 bxc6 (5.756.791) 422

18/29  0:15   +0.20--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 Bc5 3.Qc3 Rxd1 4.Rxd1 Ra8
                       5.Rd2 Ra3 6.Qxe5+ Qxe5 7.Nxe5 Bb4 (6.798.324) 426

18/29  0:18   +0.08--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bc4 Bxc5
                       4.bxc5 Qxc4 5.Nxe5 Qxc5 6.Nf7 Re8 (7.909.846) 429

18/30  0:23   +0.16    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Ra3 6.Bg4 Nf8 7.c5 Re3 8.Qc1 Ng6
                       9.Qb2 d3 10.Qxf6 gxf6 11.Kf2 Re4
                       12.Re1 Rxb4 13.Bxe6 Ra4 (10.041.583) 428

19/37  0:26   +0.04--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Re2 Kd7 8.Qf2 Ra3
                       9.Rd1 Ke7 10.Re5 Rc3 11.c5 Nc4 (11.370.226) 430

19/37  0:26   -0.08--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Re2 Kd7 8.Qf2 Ra3
                       9.Rd1 Ke7 10.Re5 Na4 11.c5 Nc3 (11.582.742) 430

19/37  0:28   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Rff2 Kd7 8.Rfe2 Ke7
                       9.Re5 Nd7 10.Ree2 Nb6 (12.235.029) 431

20/37  0:33   +0.12++  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nxd4 Qxd4
                       5.Bxe6 Nd5 6.Rc4 Qb2 7.Rg4 g6 8.Rh4 (14.527.673) 433

20/37  0:36   0.00     1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.Rd1 Rd8
                       5.Rxd4 exd4 6.Qa1 d3 7.Qa5+ Kc8
                       8.Qa8+ Qb8 9.Qa3 Qf4 10.Qa8+ (15.769.944) 433

21/37  0:40   0.00     1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.Rd1 Rd8
                       5.Rxd4 exd4 6.Qa1 d3 7.Qa5+ Kc8
                       8.Qa8+ Qb8 9.Qa3 Qf4 10.Qa8+ (17.524.972) 434

22/37  1:11   +0.08++  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.b5 Nxc5
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qa5+ Kd6 7.Qa3 Rd2
                       8.bxc6 bxc6 9.Bd5 exd5 10.Qxc5+ Ke5
                       11.Rce1+ Kf5 12.Qxc6 (32.033.978) 447

22/37  1:17   +0.16++  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.b5 Nxc5
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qa5+ Kd6 7.Qa3 Rd2
                       8.bxc6 bxc6 9.Bd5 exd5 10.Qxc5+ Ke6
                       11.Rce1+ Kd7 12.Re7+ (34.794.593) 446

22/37  1:30   +0.08    1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8 4.Qe2 Rhd8
                       5.Rcd1 Qf6 6.Bxe6 Ra4 7.Bxd7 Rxd7
                       8.Rb1 Ra8 9.Rfe1 Rf8 10.Rbd1 Kb8
                       11.Nxd4 exd4 12.Ra1 Kc7 13.Qc2 (40.265.681) 445

23/37  1:37   0.00--   1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rhe8 (43.564.993) 445

23/37  1:39   +0.16++  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8 4.Rd1 Rhd8
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qxe6 Ne5 7.b5 Qf6
                       8.b6+ Kb8 9.Rfe1 Qxe6 10.Bxe6 Ng6
                       11.Re4 d3 12.Bc4 (44.470.298) 446

23/37  1:47   +0.04    1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8 4.Rd1 Rhd8
                       5.Qe2 Nf6 6.Bxe6 Ne4 7.Qc2 Nc3
                       8.Rde1 g6 9.Bb3 Qf6 10.Nxd4 exd4
                       11.Re6 Qf5 12.Qd2 Kb8 13.Re7 Qf6
                       14.Qe1 (48.021.732) 446

24/41  2:50   +0.12++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 b6 3.b5 (76.101.795) 446

24/41  3:05   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 e5 7.Bxh7 Ra4
                       8.Rb2 Rda8 9.Bb1 Nb6 10.Bd3 Nd7
                       11.Bb1 (82.762.647) 446

25/41  3:31   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (94.169.322) 445

26/41  3:44   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (99.734.696) 445

27/47  4:13   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (113.070.372) 446

28/47  4:35   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (122.922.981) 446

29/47  6:12   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (166.026.763) 445

30/47  7:32   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bd3 Qxe1 6.Rxe1 Nf8 7.c5 Ra4 8.Rb2 Ra3
                       9.Rd2 Ra4 (202.022.964) 446

31/47  8:48   +0.08++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.Bxe6 Rd8
                       5.Rxd4 exd4 6.Qa1 Nxc5 7.bxc5 Rb5
                       8.Bc4 Rxc5 9.Bd3 h5 10.Qa7 (236.684.998) 448

31/47  10:59  +0.16++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.Bxe6 Rd8
                       5.Rxd4 exd4 (297.056.700) 450

31/47  11:42  +0.28++  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.g3 Qf5 3.b5 Bc5 4.Rb1 (316.414.022) 450

31/55  27:34  +0.16    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8 4.Qe2 Rhe8
                       5.Bd3 g6 6.Bc4 Qf6 7.Ne1 Kb8 8.Nc2 Rd8
                       9.Bb3 Nf8 10.Rd2 Rd7 11.Rfd1 Kc8
                       12.Bc4 Ra4 13.Rd3 Ra8 14.Bb3 (745.837.518) 450

32/55  35:27  +0.28++  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8
                       4.Bxe6 (960.687.051) 451

32/55  37:19  +0.04--  1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8
                       4.Bxe6 Rhd8 5.Rc4 b5 6.Rc1 Qf6 7.Bb3 Ra3
                       8.Rb1 Qf4 9.Qe2 Nf6 10.Rfe1 Ng4 (1.013.365.255) 452

32/55  49:26  +0.08    1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Rc2 Kb8 4.Qd2 Qxd2
                       5.Rxd2 Nf6 6.Bc4 Bc3 7.Rc2 Rd8 8.b5 cxb5
                       9.Bxb5 Ne4 10.Rfc1 Bd4 11.Re1 Rc3
                       12.Rxc3 Nxc3 13.Bd3 g6 14.Bc4 (1.347.280.396) 454

33/55  51:21  +0.08    1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Rc2 Kb8 4.Qd2 Qxd2
                       5.Rxd2 Nf6 6.Bc4 Bc3 7.Rc2 Rd8 8.b5 cxb5
                       9.Bxb5 Ne4 10.Rfc1 Bd4 11.Re1 Rc3
                       12.Rxc3 Nxc3 13.Bd3 g6 14.Bc4 (1.398.243.969) 453

34/55  62:53  +0.16++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8
                       4.Bxe6 (1.717.038.719) 455

34/55  64:19  +0.24++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rb2 4.Rxd4 exd4
                       5.Qa1 Rc2 6.Nxd4 Qxd4 (1.755.870.910) 454

34/55  65:43  +0.36++  1.Rd1 b6 2.c5 bxc5 3.b5 cxb5 4.Bxb5 (1.793.260.393) 454

34/62  86:05  0.00--   1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 (2.357.801.077) 456

34/62  102:42 +0.16    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Rde1 Qf6
                       7.Qg4 Rxb4 8.Re6 Ne5 9.Rxf6 Nxg4
                       10.Rf7+ Kb8 11.Rxg7 h5 12.Rg5 Rb3
                       13.Bg6 d3 14.Bxh5 (2.827.994.229) 458

35/62  116:43 +0.16    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Rde1 Qf6
                       7.Qg4 Rxb4 8.Re6 Ne5 9.Rxf6 Nxg4
                       10.Rf7+ Kb8 11.Rxg7 h5 12.Rg5 Rb3
                       13.Bg6 d3 14.Bxh5 (3.225.429.131) 460

36/62  128:50 +0.08--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Bxh7 (3.566.964.986) 461

36/62  138:14 +0.24++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 (3.837.549.684) 462

36/62  142:11 +0.36++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Rc2 (3.953.029.403) 463

best move: Ra1-d1 time: 192:55.453 min  n/s: 463.367  nodes: 3.953.029.403

This is the new version, it reaches about two plies less but I think for example the PV shows more variation in the black moves, but I can't prove the variations are also better.

3r3r/1pkn2pp/2p1p3/4p3/1PPb1q2/5N2/P3BPPP/R3QRK1 w - -


Engine: Stockfish  Kingdefender (Rainbow Serpent, Build 085, Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB, using "critical node" singular extensions combined with suppression of LMR in the child ALL node) by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

1/01   0:00   +0.20    1.g3 (104) 0

2/02   0:00   +0.12    1.Rd1 Kb8 (586) 1

3/03   0:00   +0.32    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.g3 (966) 2

4/04   0:00   +0.24    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 (1.894) 4

5/05   0:00   +0.44    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 3.Bd3 (3.258) 7

6/06   0:00   +0.28    1.Rd1 Kb8 2.c5 Nf6 3.Bd3 Nd5 (4.009) 9

7/08   0:00   +0.16    1.Rb1 Nf6 2.Rd1 b6 3.c5 bxc5 4.bxc5 (15.419) 34

8/12   0:00   +0.20    1.Rb1 Ra8 2.b5 cxb5 3.Rxb5 Rxa2
                       4.Qb4 Qe4 (32.660) 65

9/14   0:00   +0.28    1.Rc1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Rhf8 3.c5 Nf6 4.Rd1 e4
                       5.Nxd4 Rxd4 (69.071) 116

10/14  0:00   +0.20    1.Rc1 Kb8 2.Bd3 Nf6 3.Rd1 Rhf8 4.a3 e4
                       5.Nxd4 Rxd4 6.g3 (96.183) 146

11/17  0:00   +0.16    1.Rc1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rc8 4.Bc4 Rxc4
                       5.Rxc4 Bxf2+ 6.Rxf2 Qxc4 7.Nxe5 Qxb5
                       8.Nxd7+ Qxd7 (204.473) 221

12/20  0:01   +0.24    1.Rc1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rc8 4.Bc4 Rhe8
                       5.Bd3 g6 6.Qd2 Qxd2 7.Nxd2 Rf8 8.Ne4 (473.087) 305

13/23  0:02   +0.36++  1.Rc1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rc8 4.Bc4 Rhe8
                       5.Bb3 Rxc1 6.Qxc1 Qf6 7.Nxd4 exd4
                       8.Qc2 (738.037) 337

13/23  0:02   +0.48++  1.Rc1 Kb8 2.b5 cxb5 3.cxb5 Rc8 4.Rd1 Nf6
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qb4 (884.434) 351

13/23  0:03   +0.36    1.Rc1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhe8 3.Bc4 Bb2 4.Rc2 e4
                       5.g3 Qxf3 6.Rxb2 Rf8 7.Rd2 (1.103.725) 365

14/23  0:03   +0.48++  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.b5 Rd7 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.bxc6 bxc6 5.Qa5+ (1.436.184) 376

14/25  0:04   +0.24--  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.b5 Ne4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qa5+ Kb8 5.bxc6 Qc7 (1.709.511) 386

14/25  0:05   +0.60++  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.b5 Ne4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qa5+ Kb8 5.Bf3 cxb5 6.cxb5 (2.170.167) 395

14/25  0:07   +0.32    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.a3 Kb8 3.Nxd4 exd4 4.Bd3 Qf6
                       5.f4 Na4 6.Rd2 Nc3 7.Qe5+ Qxe5
                       8.fxe5 (3.008.703) 407

15/25  0:08   +0.20--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.a3 Kb8 3.Nxd4 exd4 4.Bd3 Na4
                       5.Qxe6 Nb2 (3.611.808) 409

15/25  0:09   +0.16    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rb1 Qf5 3.a3 Kb8 4.Rd1 Na4
                       5.Bd3 Qf4 6.b5 cxb5 7.Nxd4 Rxd4 8.g3 (3.988.329) 411

16/27  0:12   +0.28++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 Bc5 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nd2 Bb4
                       5.a3 Bc5 6.bxc6 Rxd2 7.Rxd2 (5.092.169) 416

16/27  0:12   +0.40++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 Bc5 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nd2 Bb4
                       5.a3 Bc5 6.bxc6 Rxd2 7.Rxd2 (5.174.757) 417

16/27  0:13   +0.58++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 Bc5 3.Bd3 cxb5 4.cxb5 Rxd3
                       5.Rxd3 e4 6.g3 Qg4 7.Qc3 (5.595.208) 421

16/28  0:14   +0.40    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 c5 3.Bd3 g5 4.Nxd4 Qxd4
                       5.g3 e4 6.Bxe4 Qxd1 7.Qxd1 Rxd1
                       8.Rxd1 Ra8 9.Bxh7 Rxa2 (6.078.442) 423

17/28  0:16   +0.28--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 c5 3.Bd3 g5 4.Nxd4 Rxd4
                       5.g3 Qf6 6.Qe2 Kb8 7.a3 h5 (7.081.495) 425

17/28  0:17   +0.20    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.b5 c5 3.Bd3 g5 4.Nxd4 Rxd4
                       5.g3 Qf6 6.Qe2 Kb8 7.Rfe1 Rhd8
                       8.Bxh7 Nxc4 9.Rxd4 Rxd4 10.a4 b6 (7.547.162) 426

18/29  0:22   +0.32++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 Bc3 4.Qe2 Kc8
                       5.Bc2 (9.490.681) 430

18/29  0:22   +0.44++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 Bc3 4.Qe2 Kc8
                       5.Bc2 (9.646.240) 430

18/29  0:24   +0.40    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 e4 4.Nxd4 Rxd4
                       5.Bc2 Ra8 6.Bxa4 Rxa4 7.Qc3 Qf6
                       8.Qc2 Ra8 9.b5 e5 10.Rfe1 Qe6
                       11.bxc6 Qxc6 12.Rb4 (10.444.153) 432

19/29  0:30   +0.28--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Qe7 Qf6 (13.214.755) 435

19/29  0:31   +0.16--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.g3 Qe4 3.Nd2 Qf5 (13.597.763) 435

19/29  0:32   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Be4 Nf8
                       7.Qe7+ Rd7 8.Qe8 Rd8 9.Qe7+ (14.194.939) 435

20/29  0:36   +0.12++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Bxh7 Rxb4
                       7.Rfe1 Rb2 8.Qd6+ Qxd6 9.cxd6+ Kxd6
                       10.Rxd4+ Kc5 11.Rdd1 (15.982.411) 435

20/29  0:36   +0.24++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Bxh7 Rxb4
                       7.Rfe1 Rb2 8.Qd6+ Qxd6 9.cxd6+ Kxd6
                       10.Rxd4+ Kc5 11.Rdd1 (16.138.535) 436

20/32  0:41   +0.16    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 e5 6.Bg4 Ra3 7.Bxd7 Rxd7
                       8.Qxe5+ Qxe5 9.fxe5 Re3 10.Rfd1 Rxe5
                       11.Rxd4 Rxd4 12.Rxd4 Re2 13.a4 g5 (18.324.705) 437

21/32  0:49   +0.04--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Re2 Kd7 (21.694.697) 438

21/32  0:53   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Re2 Kd7 8.Qf2 Ra3
                       9.Rd1 Kc7 10.Qe1 Kd7 11.Qf2 (23.517.077) 438

22/37  1:12   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Qd1 Ra3 8.Qe2 Ra4
                       9.Qe1 Re8 10.Rdf2 Ra3 11.Rd2 Ra4 (31.723.920) 439

23/37  1:22   0.00     1.Rd1 Ra8 2.Rd2 Rhd8 3.g3 Qf6 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.f4 Nb6 6.Bd3 g6 7.Qd1 Ra3 8.Qe2 Ra4
                       9.Qe1 Re8 10.Rdf2 Ra3 11.Rd2 Ra4 (36.129.063) 439

24/39  1:51   +0.08++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.b5 Qe5
                       7.b6+ Kb8 8.Qxe5+ Nxe5 9.Bxh7 Rb5
                       10.f4 Nc4 11.Rfe1 Rxc5 12.Re7 Ra5
                       13.Rxg7 Ne3 14.Rc1 (48.948.825) 440

24/39  1:52   +0.16++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.b5 Qe5
                       7.b6+ Kb8 8.Qxe5+ Nxe5 9.Bxh7 Rb5
                       10.f4 Nc4 11.Rfe1 Rxc5 12.Rxd4 Rxd4
                       13.Re8+ (49.609.319) 441

24/39  2:00   +0.28++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Nxd4 exd4 5.Qxe6 Rb2 6.Rde1 Qf6
                       7.Qg4 Ne5 8.Qg3 (53.486.855) 442

24/39  2:37   +0.08    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.a4 Nd5
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qxe6 Rxa4 7.Bxh7 Kb8
                       8.g3 Qf6 9.Qxf6 Nxf6 10.Bd3 Rxb4
                       11.Rfe1 Nd5 12.Kg2 Rf8 13.Bg6 Rf6
                       14.Bc2 (69.975.891) 443

25/39  3:07   +0.16++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Rxa2
                       4.Bxh7 Nf6 5.Nxd4 Rxd4 6.Rxd4 (82.973.548) 443

25/39  3:09   +0.24++  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.b5 Ne4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qa5+ Kb8 5.Bf3 cxb5 6.cxb5 Ng5
                       7.b6 Nxf3+ 8.gxf3 Kc8 9.Rc1+ Kd7
                       10.Rc7+ Ke8 11.Rxb7 (83.995.847) 443

25/40  3:30   +0.36++  1.Rd1 Nf6 2.b5 Ne4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qa5+ Kb8 5.Bf3 cxb5 6.cxb5 Ng5
                       7.b6 Nxf3+ 8.gxf3 Kc8 9.Rc1+ Kd7
                       10.Rc7+ Ke8 11.Rxb7 d3 12.Rxg7 (93.917.695) 445

25/40  4:52   +0.40    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 Raa8
                       4.Bxe6 Rhd8 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qe2 Nf8
                       7.Bb3 Ng6 8.Rfe1 Qg5 9.Bf7 Qf6
                       10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.Rd3 g5 12.h3 Re8
                       13.Qxe8 Rxe8 14.Rxe8 (130.218.814) 445

26/40  5:32   +0.28--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.a4 Nd5
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.Qxe6 Rxa4 7.Bxh7 Rxb4
                       8.Bf5 Kb8 9.Ra1 Rb2 10.Qg6 Ne7 (149.023.052) 448

26/44  6:38   +0.52++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rhd8 3.Bc4 Bxc5
                       4.bxc5 Qxc4 (179.082.558) 449

26/45  10:55  +0.24    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Kb8 3.b5 c5 4.Nxd4 Rxd4
                       5.g3 Qg5 6.Qe2 Rhd8 7.Bxh7 Rd2
                       8.Rxd2 Rxd2 9.Qf3 Qf6 10.Qe3 Rd4
                       11.Qe2 g6 12.Rd1 Qg7 13.Rxd4 cxd4
                       14.Bxg6 (294.572.865) 449

27/45  13:00  +0.12--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Kb8 3.b5 c5 4.Nxd4 Rxd4
                       5.g3 Qg5 6.Qe2 h6 7.f3 Rf8 (351.965.181) 450

27/46  16:10  +0.36++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Kb8 3.Rb1 Rhf8 4.Rb3 g6
                       5.c5 Nd5 6.b5 cxb5 7.Rxb5 Nc3 8.Rb3 (437.211.291) 450

27/47  26:58  +0.36    1.Rd1 g5 2.Bd3 Rhe8 3.c5 Ra8 4.Bb1 g4
                       5.Nxd4 exd4 6.g3 Qf6 7.Qe4 e5 8.Qxg4 Ra4
                       9.a3 Re7 10.Bf5 Rxa3 11.Rde1 Rb3
                       12.f4 Rb2 13.fxe5 Qh6 14.Re2 (725.384.973) 448

28/47  34:39  +0.24--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 Qxf3
                       5.Qe2 Qxe2 (930.246.497) 447

28/47  35:29  +0.36    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 Qxf3
                       5.Qe2 Qxe2 6.Bxe2 Nf6 7.Rd3 Nd5
                       8.Rf3 Nf4 9.Bc4 Kd7 10.Rg3 g6 11.Rd1 Ke7
                       12.a3 Ra8 13.Rd2 Kf6 14.Kf1 (952.252.397) 447

29/47  35:47  +0.36    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 Qxf3
                       5.Qe2 Qxe2 6.Bxe2 Nf6 7.Rd3 Nd5
                       8.Rf3 Nf4 9.Bc4 Kd7 10.Rg3 g6 11.Rd1 Ke7
                       12.a3 Ra8 13.Rd2 Kf6 14.Kf1 (960.206.547) 447

30/47  37:07  +0.28--  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 Qxf3
                       5.Qe2 Qxe2 6.Bxe2 Nf6 7.Rd3 Kd7
                       8.Rg3 g6 (995.802.394) 447

30/47  40:02  +0.20--  1.Rd1 Ra8 (1.074.170.175) 447

30/47  45:00  +0.44++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Rxa2 3.Bc4 (1.208.695.133) 447

30/47  64:25  +0.24    1.Rd1 Rhf8 2.c5 Kb8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Bc4 Qxe1 6.Rfxe1 e5 7.f4 exf4
                       8.Rxd4 fxg3 9.hxg3 Nf6 10.Rf4 Kc7
                       11.Re7+ Rd7 12.Rxd7+ Kxd7 13.Kg2 Ra8
                       14.Rd4+ (1.734.891.816) 448

31/53  66:36  +0.36++  1.Rd1 Rhf8 2.c5 Kb8 3.g3 Qe4 4.Nxd4 exd4 (1.796.152.473) 449

31/53  92:28  +0.12--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 Rhf8 4.a3 Bxf2+ (2.483.436.696) 447

31/53  102:04 +0.24    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qxe6 Rhe8 5.Qh3 Nb2 6.Rb1 Nxd3
                       7.Qxd3 Qe4 8.Qg3+ Kc8 9.b5 d3
                       10.Qh3+ Rd7 11.bxc6 Qxc6 12.Qxh7 d2
                       13.Qh5 Qe4 14.Rbd1 (2.753.502.763) 449

32/53  107:35 +0.24    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qxe6 Rhe8 5.Qh3 Nb2 6.Rb1 Nxd3
                       7.Qxd3 Qe4 8.Qg3+ Kc8 9.b5 d3
                       10.Qh3+ Rd7 11.bxc6 Qxc6 12.Qxh7 d2
                       13.Qh5 Qe4 14.Rbd1 (2.904.692.117) 449

33/53  110:41 +0.24    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Nxd4 exd4
                       4.Qxe6 Rhe8 5.Qh3 Nb2 6.Rb1 Nxd3
                       7.Qxd3 Qe4 8.Qg3+ Kc8 9.b5 d3
                       10.Qh3+ Rd7 11.bxc6 Qxc6 12.Qxh7 d2
                       13.Qh5 Qe4 14.Rbd1 (2.988.473.875) 449

34/56  120:41 +0.32++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 Rhf8 4.Bc2 Nb6
                       5.c5 Nd5 6.Rb3 g6 7.b5 Ra8 8.bxc6 bxc6
                       9.Be4 Bxc5 10.Qe2 Ra4 11.Qc2 Bxf2+
                       12.Rxf2 Rxe4 13.g3 (3.266.236.353) 451

34/56  126:07 +0.16--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 Na4 3.Rb1 Bc3 4.Qe2 g5
                       5.g3 Qf6 6.b5 Rhf8 7.Be4 Bd4 8.Nxd4 exd4
                       9.bxc6 bxc6 10.Bxh7 Nc3 (3.413.605.907) 451
Parent - - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2011-11-17 18:00 Edited 2011-11-17 18:12
Just for information, this is still build 085 and plydepth 36 is just in, I like the PV it is not very long (Well, there is not much point to a longer line if there is a repetition of moves. What is the alternative? 5.Nxd4 gives black a passed pawn, that does not seem prudent. It would be nice to have an engine that can manoeuver as carefully as Smyslow :lol:) but play seems consistent.

Eelco

34/56  181:03 +0.04--  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.h3 Kb8 3.Bd3 Na4 4.Nxd4 exd4
                       5.Qxe6 Rhe8 6.Qg4 Qxg4 7.hxg4 Nc3 (4.897.380.580) 450

34/57  224:10 0.00     1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Nxd4 exd4 3.Bd3 Na4
                       4.Qxe6 Rhe8 5.Qh3 Nb2 6.Ra1 Qh6
                       7.Qf5 g6 8.Qa5+ Kc8 9.Qa8+ Kc7
                       10.Qa5+ (6.039.444.509) 449

35/57  235:02 +0.12++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Rd7 3.c5 Nd5 (6.341.510.540) 449

35/57  252:40 +0.24++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Rd7 3.c5 Nd5 4.b5 (6.814.167.225) 449

35/59  337:35 +0.08    1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Qf5 3.c5 Nd5 4.b5 Ra8
                       5.Bd1 Rhd8 6.Bc2 Qf6 7.Bxh7 Rxa2
                       8.bxc6 bxc6 9.Bd3 Ra3 10.Bc4 Ra4
                       11.Bb3 Raa8 12.Bxd5 exd5 13.Nxd4 exd4
                       14.Ra1 (9.074.595.928) 448

36/59  424:07 0.00     1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Ra8 3.c5 Nd5 4.Bc4 Kb8
                       5.Qe2 Nc3 6.Qe1 Nd5 (11.412.866.957) 448
Parent - - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2011-11-17 18:48
The last news is that now White avoids the repetition, and the Q goes to c2 :surprised: a very slight plus results. If you extend the PV you could maybe see a bit deeper, but for analysis of the root position that always means that sidelines get less attention, if only because the available hash is exhausted earlier etc. For complete games it is less of a loss if you extend the PV, provided you can use some of the PV analysis further on in the game and avoiding mistakes is paramount, even if that means you miss the occasional brillant tactics. Of course here we are at depths (37th iteration with considerable singular extended moves), that should be sufficient even without extending the PV further.

37/59  469:58 +0.12++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Ra8 3.c5 Nd5 4.Bc4 Kb8
                       5.Qe2 Nc3 6.Qc2 Nd5 (12.659.212.550) 448
Parent - - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2011-11-18 02:16 Edited 2011-11-18 03:25
The line changed again, back to the 1. Rd1 Ra8 configuration.

37/59  512:53 +0.24++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 (13.794.277.957) 448

37/66  735:07 0.00     1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Rc1 Ra8 3.c5 Nd5 4.Bc4 Qf6
                       5.b5 Rhd8 6.Bxd5 exd5 7.Qb4 Rxa2
                       8.bxc6 bxc6 9.Qb6+ Kd7 10.Nxd4 exd4
                       11.Rce1 Rda8 12.Qb7+ Kd8 13.Qb6+ Kd7 (19.534.606.796) 442

38/66  791:47 +0.08++  1.Rd1 Nb6 2.Bd3 (21.086.346.562) 443

38/66  829:14 +0.16++  1.Rd1 (22.119.205.977) 444

38/66  845:47 +0.28++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 (22.569.531.485) 444

38/66  889:48 +0.20    1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 Ra3 3.Bc4 Rxf3 4.gxf3 Qxf3
                       5.Qe2 Qxe2 6.Bxe2 Nf6 7.Rd3 Kd7
                       8.Rh3 Nd5 9.Bc4 Ke7 10.a3 Nf4 11.Rg3 Kf6
                       12.a4 Ra8 13.a5 Nd5 14.Bxd5 (23.785.972.792) 445

39/66  985:48 +0.32++  1.Rd1 Ra8 2.c5 (26.383.937.480) 446

best move: Ra1-d1 time: 1004:38.234 min  n/s: 446.065  nodes: 26.383.937.480

Stopped now, want to try something else...
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-11-18 05:27
You think there is something here for white Eelco? It would probably take some human intervention to find a true plus here.
Parent - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2011-11-18 07:03

> You think there is something here for white Eelco? It would probably take some human intervention to find a true plus here.


Hi Jimmy, no not really as I stated in the first post, I am more using the randomly offered positions as a testbed to try out some new search ideas... Don't have that super computer that was asked anyway... But I spent awful lot of time into the singular extensions in Rainbow Serpent, with crazy extensions 3 or more plies over the nominal depth and such, and I feel it would be such a waste to throw it all away. So near and yet so far from something that actually does what it is supposed to do... You feel it is there somewhere in the code but you just cant grasp it...  So there we go again from scratch, in the new Stockfish and each time you hope you are not breaking anything :slim:

Regards, Eelco
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