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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs Christian Packi II 1-0
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- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-08 00:21
Well Christian, let's see if I've gotten better since you wiped me out in our past game :smile:

Have fun!

1. e4

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq e3
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-08 06:11
I said to myself I would play the Alekhine. So here it is. :smile:

1. e4 Nf6

rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/5n2/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 1 2
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-08 07:28
I have nothing on the Alekhine so my preparation is going to take a while :smile:

At some point I said that the Alekhine was a poor black choice, worse than the Spanish, Sicilian, Caro-Kann, French, Pirc, Modern and even than the Scandinavian, let's see if you don't make me eat my words! :yell:
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-08 16:05
It probably is worse than those. I decided to play it for several reasons. Firstly, I try to avoid book theory whenever I can because I don't have a book. Secondly, I play it OTB myself and it has proven to be the most reliable defense of all I ever played. Thirdly, now nobody can tell me I just locked up a draw with a boring opening, and went down in history with a 75% win rate. :wink:

I have no idea which line I'm gonna play. You also have many choices.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-09 01:03
At least I can say that I will not play what I do OTB :lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-09 04:50
Well, I'm not going to allow you to go into the Vienna, so...

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5

rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/5n2/4P3/8/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-09 05:05
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5

rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/8/3nP3/8/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 1 3
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-10 11:26
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4

rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/8/3nP3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-10 18:34
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6

rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/3p4/3nP3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-13 07:01
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3

rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/3p4/3nP3/3P4/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-13 17:35
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5

rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/8/3np3/3P4/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 5
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-14 12:01
I played this move because I am uncomfortable with the positions arising from the alternatives. I think I get a solid though somewhat cramped position. Something tells me we will leave book soon. :smile:
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-14 13:20

> I played this move because I am uncomfortable with the positions arising from the alternatives.


Heh, I can say the same about my move choices! Specially about 4.c4 in the positions that didn't transpose.

I've been mainly discarding white moves as soon as I see you could equalize, though I think that's just a matter of time :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-16 02:41
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5

rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/8/3nN3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-16 06:53
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6

rnbqkb1r/pp2pppp/2p5/3nN3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 6
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-17 03:40
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2

rnbqkb1r/pp2pppp/2p5/3nN3/3P4/8/PPP1BPPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-17 06:08
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5

rn1qkb1r/pp2pppp/2p5/3nNb2/3P4/8/PPP1BPPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 2 7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-19 13:40
Sorry, for the delay, I missed your move somehow :eek:

Anyway, I have the chance to push this pawn, so I won't miss it!

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4

rn1qkb1r/pp2pppp/2p5/3nNb2/3P2P1/8/PPP1BP1P/RNBQK2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-19 13:51
Well played Uly. We are even in surprises now I guess. :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-19 13:59
Yeah, wasn't expecting Bf5 :smile:
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-19 21:52
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6

rn1qkb1r/pp2pppp/2p1b3/3nN3/3P2P1/8/PPP1BP1P/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 1 8


That’s a very committing move on your part. :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-20 15:57
That's a very computer looking move on your part :razz:

Yeah, just watching you move that was worth g4 :lol:
Parent - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-20 16:02
You know you have to prove it! Great fun! :lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-20 22:03
I've not used my usual analysis methods on this game (I did on our first one, and lost miserably, anyway). Instead, I'm trying to pull up a ppipper, or something, in where all my analysis is for my understanding of the position. And then, I don't care if one engine thinks that Nd3 is clearly better than the other moves on the position, or if some other engine thinks I'm already -0.04, I think that the only move that follows the vein of g4 is this one.

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4

rn1qkb1r/pp2pppp/2p1b3/3nN3/3P1PP1/8/PPP1B2P/RNBQK2R b KQkq -


I wonder if Nelson could tell us how far away are we from novelty territory :smile:
Parent - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-20 22:23
It’s true what you're saying, in that the most human move is probably 8. f4. I found Nd3 late, maybe I dismissed it as nonsensical early, but it turns out there is some thought behind it. It’s pretty much the beginning of a regrouping to Nf4 or Nc5 to kick my bishop and maybe give me ugly doubled pawns.

Although my position looks a bit funny I feel like I have achieved the Alekhine goal, in that I have provoked you to overextend your pawns. I was about to go to bed so I won't move now, even though I may only have one move. :smile:
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2011-11-20 23:08
Yes Uly, I also would have played f4 here which IMO is the move that goes consistent with prior g4, also following traditional theory, I don't find any reason to play any other.

What do main engines say here (I cannot check it out right now)?

I have some doubts about 7.g4, though. Maybe it is the stronger move, although it certainly does not fit my style, I could not play it.

Good luck to you both!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-21 01:36

> What do main engines say here (I cannot check it out right now)?


Main engines are all over the place, at least on the five main moves, f4, O-O, Nd3, c4 and b3, I think you can convince them that any of these moves is best if you analyze long enough, but I didn't bother as I found the move I wanted to play.

> I have some doubts about 7.g4, though. Maybe it is the stronger move


The thing is I think the positions are draw with perfect play, that is, if I could analyze the main positions from the start for years and years, g4 and the other options would all be 0.00, so objectively g4 isn't any worse. Score wise, I took a hit by playing it, but engines overrate white's chances in the Alekhine anyway. I did really play it so I could see Christian playing Be6, in several variations his dark Bishop just stays there for a long while and his queen side Knight ends in awkward squares. Also, I'd say both his sides will probably end basically destroyed with no "safe" place for his king. That's some kind of revenge after our first game where I played the opening poorly (not that Christian has done so, but I'd probably have played differently the opening against another player).

Thanks for the comments and for following the game José!
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2011-11-21 12:14
Hard to tell how far you are from a novelty; you could see one on the next move or you could go on for a while yet.

Position was first seen in Almasi-Luther, 1/2-1/2, Bundesliga 0203, 2002.10.19.  Most recently it was in a CEGT 40/4 game between Amyan 1.72-Hermann 2.5, 1/2-1.2, 2011.10.09.  And many times in-between those two points.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-21 14:53
Thanks Nelson.
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-21 21:39
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4 f6

rn1qkb1r/pp2p1pp/2p1bp2/3nN3/3P1PP1/8/PPP1B2P/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 9
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-23 16:07
I know what you're thinking Uly. :grin:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-23 17:38

> I know what you're thinking Uly. :grin:


Really?

I am thinking:

"I hope to make your f8 Bishop look as silly as my c8 Bishop looked in our first game."

Was that it?

Because, 9.f5 didn't work at all, and I have planned to try to attempt to win this game, not just push your Bishops to the bottom or something.

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4 f6 9. Nd3

rn1qkb1r/pp2p1pp/2p1bp2/3n4/3P1PP1/3N4/PPP1B2P/RNBQK2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-23 18:30
Yeah I was thinking you want to push f5 to really punish me. I may take some time on this move. I was a bit lazy lately.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-23 20:54
Oh, punishment is on the way, don't worry :lol:
Parent - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-23 20:56
:eek:
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-23 22:03
Let me misplace another piece. :smile:

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4 f6 9. Nd3 Na6

r2qkb1r/pp2p1pp/n1p1bp2/3n4/3P1PP1/3N4/PPP1B2P/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 2 10
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-24 20:21
Hey Nelson, are we still in book?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2011-11-24 23:34
Yes.  White with 41.7% and 40.5% draws.  First seen in AnMon 5.30-Frenzee 159, 1-0, 2004.07.31.  Next move, no matter what it is, will get us to fewer than 20 games.  The book fragments right here.
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-25 16:10
Thanks a lot. That’s kind of relieving to me. My position looks so ugly but analysis and apparently history also shows that it’s very playable for black. I guess I can't ask for more than being a 58% favorite at move 10 as black. I see Uly takes his time with this move and there are plenty of options so there's no point for me to ponder.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-25 17:24
I actually only focused on this option, refuting black's variations more than anything, and trying to find a general plan to be played against anything. These aren't variations that engines handle well, specially those in where they think black has a small edge, so I wonder how relevant were those statistics.

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2
Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4 f6 9. Nd3 Na6 10. Nc3

r2qkb1r/pp2p1pp/n1p1bp2/3n4/3P1PP1/2NN4/PPP1B2P/R1BQK2R b KQkq -


>I can't ask for more than being a 58% favorite


Does it really work like that?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2011-11-25 19:12
Generally, yes, but specifically, no!  10.Nc3 is, percentagewise, the best of eight choices you had right there.  Of course that statistic is meaningless given the sample size.

You are now in a position seen only three times before.  White has had two wins and one draw.  First seen in Barsteward, Fritz 11-Escape2Artist, Rybka 2.3.2.a, 1-0, 2008.05.31.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-25 19:24
I liked hearing that :smile:

Being 83.3% favorite after 10 moves :cool: :yell:

Thanks Nelson.
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-25 19:29
Hehe. If it wasn’t for the sample size you would be in great shape. :wink:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-25 19:35
I am in great shape regardless, at least, when compared to Black :lol:
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-25 19:39
I have to disagree. But that’s the fun of it. It’s a battle of the wits! :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-26 02:08
You... really?

If you weren't playing the game, and just happened to find the position, would you really say that black is in better shape than white?

...

Well, I'm talking about potential future positions in where all your pieces are developed doing nothing, would love to reach them.
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-26 08:21
What I would think as an outside observer is that black has some awkward pieces but white has overextended his pawns and considerably weakened his kings position. As the player I can say I'm glad I'm playing chess here and not following 30 moves of book (which I don't have). So yes I'm content with the way this unfolded. I will go deep on this move so no idea when I'm gonna move. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-26 14:51

> considerably weakened his kings position


I haven't seen a single line in where it could be attacked, though.

> and not following 30 moves of book


I also never checked book since 5...c6 :smile:
Parent - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-26 16:17
It’s the lines you can't play because of your open king that matter. :wink:
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-28 21:54
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. f4 f6 9. Nd3 Na6 10. Nc3 h5

r2qkb1r/pp2p1p1/n1p1bp2/3n3p/3P1PP1/2NN4/PPP1B2P/R1BQK2R w KQkq - 0 11
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs Christian Packi II 1-0
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