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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Schachmatt Vs. Uly (Traxler with 5.Bxf7+ II)
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-04 23:50
Thanks for accepting my challenge and good luck!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+

r1bqk2r/pppp1Bpp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq -


Alright, it's my move, let me check something first :wink:
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-05 01:46 Edited 2011-11-05 02:29
Okay, Ke7 is the move I'm sure... and Good luck and Good game! 

I have a ton of analysis in this and I have tested these lines before for practice.  I wonder how I did?

Kf8 is a move too I see, I need to look this up again.  By the way, I normally wouldn't play 4.Ng5, White gets only the smallest of advantages there, one of my chess friends, rated about 2000 (and with the ambition to play in a rated USCF tournament once a decade, I think), and I played quite a number of games in various positions here, Black is getting enough activity to mostly equalize in the critical lines.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-05 08:09
Yup. Ready!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7

r1bq3r/ppppkBpp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-05 12:29
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3

r1bq3r/ppppk1pp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/1B6/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQ - 0 6
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-07 05:29
Yeah, I was expecting that, that's why I took more time on the first move, to be better prepared :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-08 07:34
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6

r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/1B6/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-08 23:06 Edited 2011-11-08 23:13
r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/1BN5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ - 0 7


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7.Nc3

By finding a few clever ideas I think I can bust all lines, Qe8, Rf8, and then Nd4 being the most difficult if I recall correctly.  I wonder if I will get to use them and if they have been played in corr.  White's concern is Qe8-h5 in a position in which I've already castled, although I do not think I castle in the key positions.  The key is how to make use the Ng5 in different positions.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-10 08:42
Looking forward to those plans, you always provide an interesting game :smile:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/1BN5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-11 06:26
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8.Nd5+

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2bNp1N1/4P3/1B6/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ - 0 8


This was the key move I had counted upon when I had played Nc3 and now Black will not get counterplay via Bg4 as is normal in similar Traxler lines.  Novelty according to my books and dbs.  I think that Black is already lost - White will stay ahead here in the ensuing play.
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-11 19:12
Conditional offered: 8...Nxd5 9.exd5

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/2np4/2bPp1N1/8/1B6/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ - 0 9
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-13 09:23

> I think that Black is already lost


Curious because I can't see how white can make progress, looking forward to your shocker!* :lol:

Conditional accepted:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4

Conditional sent:

IF 10. c3 THEN Nxb3

*) I hope they're not my famous last words...
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-13 13:12
Conditional accepted.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10.c3 Nxb3 11.axb3

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/3p4/2bPp1N1/8/1PP5/1P1P1PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ - 0 11
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-16 08:29
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1p1/3p3p/2bPp1N1/8/1PP5/1P1P1PPP/R1BQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-16 15:36
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1p1/3p3p/2bPp1N1/3P4/1PP5/1P3PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ d3 0 12


I expected 11...Bf5.

[Event "Analysis Main Line 11...¥f5"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.11.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schachmatt"]
[Black "Uly"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C57"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[SourceDate "2011.11.04"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8.
Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 Bf5 12. d4 exd4 13. O-O Qg6 14. Re1+
Kd7 15. b4 Bb6 16. Qa4+ Kc8 17. cxd4 Bxd4 18. Ra3 Be5 19. f4 Bd4+ 20. Kh1 Bf2
21. Re2 Bd7 22. Qb3 Qb1 23. Qc4 b5 24. Qc3 Bd4 25. Qd2 Bf6 26. Ne6 Kb7 27. Rd3
Be8 28. f5 Bh5 29. Re1 Bg4 30. Rf1 *
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-17 06:53
Yeah, no way I was playing that, specially considering that my mainlines still seem like draws. I know that if you said these positions are lost for Black, that I must be missing some key move somewhere, but I just can't see it.

I discarded 11...Bf5 very early in analysis, and focused in the non-transposing variations between 11...h6 and 11...Bb6, concluding that h6 was better, though I think white's best continuation after 11...Bb6 was 12.d4, and then 12...h6, anyway.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3Pp1N1/3P4/1PP5/1P3PPP/R1BQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-17 18:36
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13.Nf3

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3Pp3/3P4/1PP2N2/1P3PPP/R1BQK2R b KQ - 0 13


Conditional offered: 13...Bg4 14.dxe5

My goal is to get into a winning rook endgame.  My main line is a heavy piece ending with Black's king slightly more exposed and Black's rooks slightly awkwardly coordinated and I can target Black's structural weaknesses enough to win.  There are many variations, but intuitively I do not think Black has quite enough to hold and concretely I see ways to restrict Black's chances.  I think the key is that a queen trade sometimes is favorable to me when my rooks are better, and Black's structural deficits are such that this is enough to win.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-17 21:28
Oh, wow! I've been focusing on analyzing the critical positions near the root, and in that I don't miss a move that you'd play that would ruin my analysis. I haven't analyzed any endgame and wouldn't dare to predict one.

Accepted.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13. Nf3 Bg4 14. dxe5 Rf8

r3qr2/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3PP3/6b1/1PP2N2/1P3PPP/R1BQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-17 22:00
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13. Nf3 Bg4 14. dxe5 Rf8 15.Be3

r3qr2/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3PP3/6b1/1PP1BN2/1P3PPP/R2QK2R b KQ - 0 15
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-19 17:19
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13. Nf3 Bg4 14. dxe5 Rf8 15. Be3 Qh5

r4r2/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3PP2q/6b1/1PP1BN2/1P3PPP/R2QK2R w KQ -
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-20 03:23
Bringing it to left bottom of thread.
- - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-11-05 22:22
Cool! One more Traxler game. :)
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-06 04:02
Three or four critical moves here.
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-20 03:26
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13. Nf3 Bg4 14. dxe5 Rf8 15. Be3 Qh5 16.Qe2

r4r2/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3PP2q/6b1/1PP1BN2/1P2QPPP/R3K2R b KQ - 0 16
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-21 15:13
What am I missing? :eek:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Nd4 10. c3 Nxb3 11. axb3 h6 12. d4 Bb6 13. Nf3 Bg4 14. dxe5 Rf8 15. Be3 Qh5 16. Qe2 Rxf3

r7/ppp1k1p1/1b1p3p/3PP2q/6b1/1PP1Br2/1P2QPPP/R3K2R w KQ -
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-21 21:07 Edited 2011-11-21 21:55
Well, I certainly analyzed this move thoroughly, I think more thoroughly than any other ... and it's quite possible you assessed the ending not completely accurately, the engines can the positions with King exposure and I do not intend to liquidate as the engines suggest.  There is a horizon effect here.  I thought I was winning for sure after 12...Bb6, after 12...Qg6, I thought it is a more difficult technical exercise but it looks like I can win there too because I can achieve connected passed pawns.  Let's see...

For a while Rxf3 was my main line but I refuted it, and in the end I thought Rae8 was the only move that gives any chances.

Started analyzing with Houdini 1.5 in the middle of this game, it's a really great engine for analysis of long lines, but I cannot multitask when analyzing with it.  Must find out how to adjust parameters so it uses less memory when active.  Anyway Rybka is somewhat better for endings.

EDIT: Hmm, well maybe I missed a horizon effect line, that's unfortunate...
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-21 22:57
White resigns.  My analysis of exd6 Kf7 was woefully inadequate.  Well done!  Qe2 is a huge blunder, the most ambitious move, but quite unfortunately too slow.  White advantage is simply within draw bounds on the alternatives, so I have to go back to move 7 for real improvements.  At least I understand better why Bd5 is favored over Bb3, as concretely it seems Black has enough for a draw.  I am disappointed by my results of late and lapses in judgment, albeit in part consequent of playing positions that are less familiar to me, but this is part of the learning process.  I thank you for your efforts and quality play - it is not simple to analyze positions down material and with exposed King.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-22 02:45
Wow! I never expected this game to end like this! You had me very scared with your assessments of the position calling the game won for white, I truly expected that the lines you were seeing were beyond my horizon and that I was going to be in trouble soon or in some endgame from outer space where white was winning but I just couldn't tell.

Thanks for the game and for allowing me to dig deeper in these positions, and for my better understanding of the implications of these lines for the Two Knights defense, a favorite opening of mine.  I think I'm better prepared for my future challenge against Moz in these variations again,

*Handshake.*
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-22 20:37
That’s pretty sick. Well played Uly. :wink:
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-22 22:08 Edited 2011-11-22 22:16
there's many variations if you play it thru rybka ed and kf7 qc4 and qb5 and all the endgames win for Black also.  White doesn't have a draw anywhere some weird tactics.  I just didn't consider Kf7, I was looking at too many moves in previous branches, in an otb game, kf7 is the only move to consider really... didn't see it coming. it's pretty impressive for black, he had to see until about this depth on some lines committing to a plan on move 7 and 8.
Parent - - By Christian Packi (****) [de] Date 2011-11-22 20:43
Can you post the winning line?
Parent - By ernest (****) [fr] Date 2011-11-22 22:13
+1 :cool:
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2011-11-22 22:31
Here:
Attachment: schachuly.pgn (15k)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-22 22:55
As Schammatt says, there are many variations, the moves of white are not sent in stone as it has many choices, but it seems it ends in an endgame with 3 pawns against Bishop in where an exchange of rooks leads to a black victory and white is paralyzed. I actually had projected something like this:

8/1pkb3R/8/p2P4/5r1P/1PP5/1P6/2K5 w - -


But I wouldn't venture to say that the end position was lost for white, you never know (I had planned to improve the line as the game continued, but it didn't).

And whoa! By looking at Schachmatt's PGN it seems he analyzed those variations much more thoroughly than I did :eek:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-11-23 17:04
You know You Talk too much. Few moves ago You said White wins and now you say White resigns. Without confirming anything saying is bit weird.
Traxler still has bite and is not refuted till now.

P.S. - will you complete our game we played at WBCCC and continued with different move ?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-23 17:40
I love the whole atmosphere Schachmatt puts in his games, though, it makes them feel different.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-11-23 17:45
No doubt Its good, But sometimes he makes conclusions before any conclusions!! :slim:
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Schachmatt Vs. Uly (Traxler with 5.Bxf7+ II)

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